Comparing a CR 14 Adult Red Dragon (from 1st Bestiary),
to a CR 15 Ancient Crystal Dragon (from Bestiary 2)...
Why are the stats on the Huge Crystal Dragon so much tougher than the -1 CR Red? Is this incorrect? Or, did Paizo up the power level between the first Bestiary and Bestiary 2?
Examples:
Red frightful presence (180 ft., DC 21)
Crystal frightful presence (300 ft., DC 28)
(note: a CR 19 Red Dragon's frightful presence is DC 27!)
Huge Red AC 27
Huge Crystal AC 37
Red DR 5/magic
Crystal DR 15/magic
Red melee bite +25
Crystal melee bite +30
Red spell-Like abilities, CL 17th
Crystal spell-like abilities CL 21st
Red spells known CL 7th
Crystal spells known CL 9th
All this and more for a +1 CR?
I want to use the Ancient Crystal Dragon as a boss-monster, and so it should be above the party's level (13th in this case). But, I am concerned it is tougher than it's CR. I want this to be a tough and memorable fight, not a guaranteed TPK.
Appreciate your thoughts.
just looking over the 2 creatures the big things your not looking at in my opinion are:
1: the size of the dragon phisically, the red dragon is 15 sq feet, and the crystal is only 10
and 2 which i think is bigger: the red dragon has hast in its spell list which grants it another attack action which ic can use for greater vital strike on a bite attack at a 15 ft reach. thats a bit pds increase for a spell that you could possibly try to dispell but have no guarentee.
and a minor 3: the crystal dragon has a weaker breath weapon, though its damage type is mor potent
i think the crystal my be a tad to strong but the red is no push over
I missed the fact that the Crystal Dragon takes up less space. That also seems wrong. Both dragons are Huge size. I always looks at that when I consider space, and assume Huge means 15 feet. Isn't that the rule?
I think even if the CR 14 Adult Red gets it's haste spell off, my PC party, fully prepped, would eat it for breakfast. On the other hand, the CR 15 Crystal dragon, I fear will be almost impossible.
Val'bryn2: Good point.
Dafydd: Thanks for your thorough responses.
I guess I am worried about it. I have been tempted to nerf the Crystal Dragon a little. It's easy enough to do, but I wanted to get some feedback from the community first.
I want to go with the Crystal Dragon. I used to think it was a nonsensical creature, but it actually fits the story very well in this case. This particular crystal dragon is more like Lawful Evil. It's not natural, but a "created" creature that is guarding a particular location from any ingress. It is a hard point in the flow of the story, and the party must defeat it to go on. Social is not an option. Although, they can take their time and as many attempts as they want to.
I agree that dragons should be powerful, but I feel the CR of this particular one should be 16 (possibly 17?). Thinking about just the to-hit for an "average" 15th level Fighter, he would likely have +23 to hit (BAB 15, +5 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Greater WF, +1 magic) and would need to roll 14 or better. That wouldn't bother me if this thing's only trick was AC, but it's just one of an array of abilities.
It's possible that a standard level 15 party (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard) could take this thing down using only 25% of their resources. I hadn't actually investigated that since the PCs in my game are all 13th level. Also, I'm not familiar with all the options available for Pathfinder now. You mentioned the gunslinger, and I've not even read that class.
Which brings me to my other possibility: has Pathfinder powered-up that much since Bestiary 1 that all the creatures have to be tougher for their CR?
I meant to respond to this yesterday, but I think this dragon has a slower spell progress much like the white dragon does. You should compare like CR's to like CR's.
The CR 15 white dragon has the same AC, same hit points. The crystal dragon has 1 higher fort save and 2 higher on will saves. The white dragon has +1 to hit and does more damage, but not by much. The white dragon also has shield which boost its AC to 41. It also has invisibility which is a +20 to stealth, giving it a +36. It also has the same number of spells, and caster level as the crystal dragon
This gives it a very good chance for a surprise round. It uses its breath for a blizzard.
Blizzard (Su) An ancient white dragon can use its breath weapon to create a blizzard in the area around it as a standard action. This creates heavy snow conditions in a 50-foot radius for 1 minute, centered on the dragon. This snow slows movement (4 squares of movement per square entered) and limits vision as fog does.
This means you can not use targeted spells on the dragon, and any melee or ranged attacks have a miss chance. This also counts as difficult terrain. In addition the dragon is not hindered in any way.
I used this in an actual game, and it works very well. If someone decides to be brave and get close then disarm their weapon. With a CMD of 43 good luck getting the weapon back.
You should compare like CR's to like CR's.
The CR 15 white dragon has the same AC, same hit points. ...
Thanks! And... holy crap! The white dragon actually looks a little tougher than the crystal at the same CR. I've been meaning to do exactly as you suggested and look at other CR 15 baddies. Just haven't had a lot of that... what's it called?... oh yeah: "free time".
Thanks for helping with that. I am more convinced that the game designers felt this was appropriate for a CR 15.
It is more paperwork, but you could also MAKE the crystal guardian via construct rules. ...
This particular adventure has been a little construct and undead heavy. The player of the rogue PC might well quit!
I like your suggestions all in all. They crystal dragon has already "appeared", and so it's too late to change my read aloud. I have until next session (not yet scheduled) to decide if/how I should nerf it. I am hoping they figure out on their own that the crystal dragon does not move from its spot. If they play smart, they should learn they can leave and refine their approach until they get it right.
Based on the excellent feedback I received from all of you, I think the best thing to do would be to soften this particular dragon for my party. Then put it back the way it was when I'm ready to share this little adventure with others.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This particular adventure has been a little construct and undead heavy. The player of the rogue PC might well quit!
Just as a side note, the adventure being construct and undead heavy shouldn't be making the rogue want to quit. Both constructs and undead can be hit with sneak attack in Pathfinder.
You should compare like CR's to like CR's.
The CR 15 white dragon has the same AC, same hit points. ...
Thanks! And... holy crap! The white dragon actually looks a little tougher than the crystal at the same CR. I've been meaning to do exactly as you suggested and look at other CR 15 baddies. Just haven't had a lot of that... what's it called?... oh yeah: "free time".
Thanks for helping with that. I am more convinced that the game designers felt this was appropriate for a CR 15.
It is more paperwork, but you could also MAKE the crystal guardian via construct rules. ...This particular adventure has been a little construct and undead heavy. The player of the rogue PC might well quit!
I like your suggestions all in all. They crystal dragon has already "appeared", and so it's too late to change my read aloud. I have until next session (not yet scheduled) to decide if/how I should nerf it. I am hoping they figure out on their own that the crystal dragon does not move from its spot. If they play smart, they should learn they can leave and refine their approach until they get it right.
Based on the excellent feedback I received from all of you, I think the best thing to do would be to soften this particular dragon for my party. Then put it back the way it was when I'm ready to share this little adventure with others.
You do realize that both are subject to sneak attacks right? Unless they have something else that prevents it.
Just as a side note, the adventure being construct and undead heavy shouldn't be making the rogue want to quit. Both constructs and undead can be hit with sneak attack in Pathfinder.
You do realize that both are subject to sneak attacks right? Unless they have something else that prevents it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, you need supplemental material (ie: Advanced Players Guide, if memory serves) to sneak attack constructs and/or undead. Right?
We're playing a hybrid of Pathfinder Core Rules and 3.5 Complete series and house rules. I posted here rather than the 3.5 or Homebrew forums because I am querying about a specific Pathfinder monster. I know there are spells in 3.5 supplemental (probably in Pathfinder too) that grant sneak attacks to certain creatues that are otherwise immune. Our group feels that this is "unrealistic" for creatures that don't have "vital spots". Yes, I realize that "unrealistic" is an incendiary word to use when discussing high fantasy games. This is just the opinion of this writer and the players at his table.
Another idea if the red stats fit better use the xtal breath weapon and spells along with the red numerical and none will be the wiser.
An excellent suggestion, MA. I tend to forget that as an option. Mostly, this is because I want to be able to insert a reference to a specific creature from published material and save the page count. Sometimes I'm just being obtuse!
As per Dafydd's suggestion, I could have used the Crystal Guardian, along with some modifications such as changing the creature type so that it is a living thing that is subject to sneak as per our house-rules.
I am hoping they figure out on their own that the crystal dragon does not move from its spot. If they play smart, they should learn they can leave and refine their approach until they get it right.Easy way to nail that home, when someone gets a nasty wound and needs to run away, the dragon lunges at them, but misses. It seems to be restrained. (Invisible Chain ties it to the door, discovered if the magic user starts investigating with detect magic, someone uses invisibility purge, they start cutting up the corpse etc)
Can not wait to see how the battle goes, dragons are so much fun.
Yeah! That's more along the lines of what I had in mind.
I can post a brief synopsis of the battle(s) up here after it/they happen(s), if you'd like. It could be awhile. The rate at which we get together to play could not be described as "slow". It's more like "glacial".
So far, the party encounter my BBEG - who just so happens to be quite small. He told them he would not permit them to go any farther, and to prove his point, summoned his Huge "pet" to block the path.
The party fired some shots at the Crystal Dragon. When I told the Fighter-ish character he missed on a 35, someone exclaimed, "Holy ****! This thing is un-hittable!". Then it was the C.D.'s turn. It used its breath weapon, with the DC 27 save, and every PC lost half or more hit points. Due to multi-classing, the rogue does not have Improved Evasion. She made her save, but half damage was still a lot compared to her total.
When the wizard's turn came 'round, he cast Dimension Door so the party could beat a hasty retreat.
Now, in game-time, it is the next day. The party has slept, Hero's Feasted, prepped and cast Nethys-only-knows how many spells. They are ready to try again. My own math says they are still going to have a devil of a time hitting this thing!
Time will tell...
Consider this your correction. The inability to sneak attack constructs and undead was removed in the change from 3.5 to Pathfinder. It was in 3.5 that you needed supplemental material to sneak attack them.
Thanks, Jeff!
OK. I am now convinced. The Ancient Crystal Dragon is indeed a CR 15.
We had our session yesterday. The party came in loaded for dragon. They were especially stealthy coming in to it's area, so the dragon didn't get to cast its short-term spells until they were within tremorsense range. This was not a huge advantage for them, but it was something. The crystal dragon started out invisible and with a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (replacement spell for Dimension Door). It did not get a chance to add Displacement or Mirror Image before the party engaged.
On the first round, the dragon threw out Phantasmal Killer, which luckily for the party, didn't manage to kill the intended target. The party responded with a pelt of arrows. Dozens of shots literally bounced off the crystal scales, but a few struck home, including a critical hit with a shocking burst longbow.
The party wizard did the most damage to the creature. The 3.5 supplemental spell "Assay Spell Resistance" proved to be the real trick to weakening the thing. Cone of Cold proved effective. The dragon responded with a charge and bite, stripping most of the hit points off the caster. This put it within spring-attack range of the Cleric/Fighter, who got in a couple good hits of his own through the fight.
I shuffled the feats on the dragon a little to fit with it's guardian theme. When someone attempted to climb the stairs it was guarding, the dragon flung her back with Awesome Blow, declaring in full common: "You may go no farther!"
This clue appeared to be unnecessary, as a very good damage roll on a Chain Lightning spell finished the beast off.
In retrospect, I could have played the Crystal Dragon a little better. On the other hand, the party made a few mistakes as well. All in all, I think it was a fair fight, and the party expended a great deal of spells in the fight.
Really BIG THANKS to all of you. I'm glad I didn't nerf the thing. They would have ground it up like a Carbuncle in a Cuisinart.
just looking over the 2 creatures the big things your not looking at in my opinion are:
1: the size of the dragon phisically, the red dragon is 15 sq feet, and the crystal is only 10
They are both large in size, and thus are both 15' creatures.
and 2 which i think is bigger: the red dragon has hast in its spell list which grants it another attack action which ic can use for greater vital strike on a bite attack at a 15 ft reach. thats a bit pds increase for a spell that you could possibly try to dispell but have no guarentee.
Haste grants an extra attack in a full attack action. It does not grant an extra standard action. Thus it cannot use the extra attack to do a vital strike attack (vital strike only works with a single standard action attack).
It used its breath weapon, with the DC 27 save, and every PC lost half or more hit points. Due to multi-classing, the rogue does not have Improved Evasion. She made her save, but half damage was still a lot compared to her total.The rogue should not have taken any damage on a success reflex save.
How right you are!
Pretty sure I typed that description wrong. I think she failed her save, and therefore took full damage.