If a Witch were to lose her Familiar whether due to death, misplacement, forceful separation or the Familiar somehow developing a distaste for it's master... what happens?
As far as I can tell this would be the equivalent of a Wizard losing both their Spellbook and Familiar in one fell swoop. But what are the actual effects?
1. Do all of the spells go away with the Familiar? Permanently?
2. If she gets a new Familiar does it come with all of the spells that were in the old one? If so, how? Are they actually granted by her Patron regardless of her Familiar?
3. Is there some way to extract the spells from a current Familiar and put them into a new one?
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I don't have my APG with me, but if I recall correctly, the witch can replace the familiar after 24 hours with a ritual costing X amount of gp (I think the cost goes up as the witch's level goes up). I think the new familiar comes with all cantrips, the bonus spells gained at each level, plus the patron spells, but not any spells that the witch might have taught the old familiar through ritual.
A familiar retains its arcane knowledge for 24 hours after separation from its witch. If the familiar is willing, it may teach spells to another familiar, subject to the time limitations (I want to say a 6th level spell would take 6 hours to teach, familiar-to-familiar, for instance, but check the APG).
So, I don't think there is a way for a witch to have an old, still living familiar teach her new familiar any spells, since there is the time limitation. The old familiar can only teach for 24 hours, and the witch cannot gain a new familiar until after 24 hours have passed.
If the party kills a witch, but spares the familiar, that familiar may be persuaded to teach spells known to another witch's familiar, though. Similarly, if you have two witches who are friendly with each other, they could have their familiars teach each other spells.
I think that if a witch were to take the Improved Familiar feat, and replace her familiar that way, that all the spells, regardless of source, transfer as a function of the feat.
LazarX: I understand that much but you didn't really answer the questions. So they lost their Spellbook. Great. When they get a new "Spellbook" (aka Familiar) does it have any spells in it? Even the ones they know based on level? None? Completely blank? Or are these actually granted by their Patron and just stored in the receptacle that is their Familiar regardless of what creature takes that form? What about the other questions?
WendyWitch: Go ahead and read the entries that you are referring to and come back. I think you are mostly correct but the rules do not seem entirely clear on this.
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My read is that the new familiar has all 0-level spells, two spells of each spell level that the witch can cast, and the appropriate patron spells. The spells in the new familiar do not have to be ones the witch knew before, but there are a lot fewer of them. I can see how some might misinterpret it but that seems to be my read.
If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 day later through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per witch level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete. A new familiar begins knowing all of the 0-level spells plus two spells of every level the witch is able to cast. These are in addition to any bonus spells known by the familiar based on the witch's level and her patron (see patron spells).
You don't actually get all your freebies from leveling. I'm not sure what your question/confusion is here Lune.
LazarX: I did read what she wrote. However, I do not see the rules for what she is discussing actually listed anywhere. If you would like to be helpful RATHER THAN TALKING IN ALL CAPS, stomping around and being angry, then I welcome your input.
ryric: Yeah, OK. I just found those rules. FYI - where I am at right now does not allow access to the PRD or d20pfsrd so I have been accessing on my phone which isn't the easiest or fastest reading possible.
I guess all that leaves is my last question (3).
ryric found the text I was thinking of, so yes, there are some spells that come with the new familiar, but they are more limited than I was thinking.
Below are the relevant bits about your 3rd question:
PRD: "Familiar Teaching Familiar: A witch's familiar can learn spells from another witch's familiar. To accomplish this, the familiars must spend one hour per level of the spell being taught in communion with one another...Most witches require a spell of equal or greater level in return for this service. If a familiar belongs to a witch that has died, it only retains its knowledge of spells for 24 hours, during which time it is possible to coerce or bribe the familiar into teaching its spells to another, subject to GM discretion."
I agree that the rules do not specifically address moving spells from an old familiar to a new one, or for a situation other than one where the witch has died, but I still think that given the time constraints, there's no way for one witch to transfer spells alone. The old familiar loses its knowledge of spells after 24 hours, and the witch cannot replace it with a new one until 1 day has passed. There would have to be another witch with a familiar for the old familiar to teach its spells to, and then the other witch's familiar would be able to teach the spells to the new familiar. Difficult and time consuming.
My thoughts on the Improved Familiar feat don't quite bear out, either, by RAW, because you can only take the feat when you would normally be able to gain a new familiar, although I think I've seen threads where GM's have ruled that all the spells transfer, but that'd really be up to how the GM wants to interpret it.
Basically, if a witch loses her familiar, she has lost her spellbook, and so she cannot prepare spells. She may gain a new familiar as stated in the quote by ryric, with the reduced spell list, as noted. The new familiar may learn additional spells from another witch's familiar, as quoted above, or by learning from a scroll:
PRD: "Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed."
I just had a truly evil thought. What if the witch's familiar were kidnapped, and just held apart from the witch? She would be unable to commune with it to prepare spells, but it hasn't died, nor has the witch. I don't know of any rules that speak to dismissing a witch's familiar, so in this case, I think she'd be stuck. Rescue the familiar, or not cast spells.
If the animal ceases to function as a familiar, through whatever means, my interpretation would be that it loses its knowledge after 24 hours and returns to a non-magical beast, and all the spells it had been taught while a familiar are lost.
If you upgrade your familiar with Improved Familiar, you don't lose any spells.
Shroudb, that... is an amazing item.
Paladin, where is that quoted? I could only find where the feat says "This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar."
you can buy her a stone familiar
{. . .}
I assume from the description that the Witch can't actually use this directly as a substitute for the Familiar, and thus still needs to get a replacement familiar?
Also, how does the process of teaching a Familiar from a scroll work for a Witch that has an item instead of a Familiar (the item can't consume the ashes of the scroll)?
shroudb: I wouldn't be opposed to that. Actually, I think to be rid of the damned thing the party would be happy to accommodate her.
boring7: lol. I work in IT. That is hillarious.
Paladin of Baha-who?: Yeah, this would be an Improved Familiar that I am referring to already.
WendyWitch: Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't see those particular rules before.
What if you somehow trapped the first familiar (even against it's will) and had another familiar already prepared? So you could renounce the first familiar and within the 24 hour time frame get a new familiar and have it start copying? If I understand it correctly I think it would work but it would only get the first 24 hours worth of spells.
I did notice the distinct lack of dismissing a familiar for a witch. I had actually thought of that in the situation that this is concerning. I think you are right. She would be stuck spell-less indefinitely. And in the case of an Imp familiar it doesn't need much to "survive" so all you have to do is trap it indefinitely.
Oh, I get it. The item as a backup drive. Hm. I had thought you referring to some other item that stores the familiar in it as a means of transportation and keeping the familiar safe. I just read the item description and see what you are talking about. It doesn't seem so bad for 6k gold.
And for referencing the books on a phone, Lune, I'd recommend the app "PFRPG rd." I keep all of my Paizo pdf's in iBooks on my iPad, but they are hard to read on a phone.
my understanding of the item is that it's like a backup drive.
the witch still needs a familiar, it is the conduit between her and the patron.
when she gains a level it is still the familiar who gets the spells, and you teach through scroll to the familiar as normal.
but the stone familiar acts like a "secondary" familiar. it can communicate knowledge and be taught AND teach to other familiars . {. . .}
Okay, I get that part -- sounds reasonable enough. But what about the case of a Witch Archetype that replaces Familiar with a bonded item that can't eat scroll ashes?
The ones I can think of off the top of my head (and looking quickly at the PRD) are:
Bonded Witch (Half Elf -- uses any one of a variety of bonded items that would normally be used by a Wizard with a bonded item)
Cartomancer (uses a Harrow Deck, which I would think would be allergic to ash)
Gravewalker (uses a creepy Poppet Doll -- maybe this one COULD eat the scroll ashes, if it was creepy enough)
Scarred Witch Doctor (uses a creepy mask -- maybe this one also could eat the scroll ashes, if it was creepy enough)
In addition, I would think that any waterborne Witch would have trouble with a ritual involving burning the scroll, and a Winter Witch COULD do such a ritual, but it seems like a more thematically appropriate alternative should be available for them.
!!
The Witch in this game is thinking of going into a Harrower. Not sure how I missed the Cartomancer. THAT is constructive. I am going to suggest he looks at that as an alternative to the stupid Imp familiar.
^Actually, those are pretty good solutions.
^^Come to think of it, I am TOTALLY stealing the above suggestions . . . .
You all missed the obvious one: another witch's familiar.
If someone else takes a level of witch, or if anyone gains a witch follower, their familiar can be the backup. You can use familiar to familiar transfer of all spells, provided the spellcraft check is made. Any witch who does not use Take-10 to learn spells is risking a loss of spells.
A first level witch with 14 intelligence and a single rank of spellcaft can Take-10 to get a 16 on the skill. Starting with that low Int is unlikely. You can add one rank per level, but you only need one point every other level. Since nearly all primary castes should max that skill, there is no excuse for failing to learn a spell.
Lastly, the witch's familiar can learn spells the witch cannot cast, it the check is made. I do this with my own character. I have an eighth level witch cohort that my ninja 9/witch 1 provides a backup spell storage for. I also have a first level witch follower do the same. This means all three familiars must be killed before we loose spells. Loosing 500gp/level sucks, but much less than that plus spells.
If you have more than one witch, the coven hex becomes interesting.
/cevah