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If you're planning on being a Verminous Hunter and just in it for the healing, yes. Just kill your animal companion.
In this case, it's for the grapple stuff, but same difference, I suppose.
Personally I frown at a player whose backstory is that they murdered their friend for power, yet they claim to be non-evil.
Is it really okay in PFS to have the death of an AC, which has mechanical consequences, as part of backstory?
Murdered is an interesting leap. Unfortunately lost and mourned to the exclusion of bringing another one was more the direction I was planning. I just didn't want to recklessly throw away an AC in a scenario if I could, even if it will result in my OOC singing of the Pink Panther theme with the words "dead ant."
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Other class features require that the AC have died for me to use them as I intend.Can someone clue me in as to what requires this?
Animal Focus (Su): At 1st level, a hunter can take on the aspect of an animal as a swift action. She must select one type of animal to emulate, gaining a bonus or special ability based on the type of animal emulated and her hunter level. The hunter can use this ability for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. The hunter can emulate only one animal at a time.
The hunter can also apply one of these aspects to her animal companion. Unlike with the hunter herself, there is no duration on the animal aspect applied to her animal companion. An aspect applied in this way does not count against the hunter's minutes of duration per day—it remains in effect until the hunter changes it. The companion's aspect can be the same aspect the ranger has taken on or a different one. The hunter can select or change the animal foci on both herself and her animal companion as part of the same swift action.
If the hunter's animal companion is dead, the hunter can apply her companion's animal focus to herself instead of her animal companion. This is in addition to the normal one she can choose, and (as with a companion's focus) remains in effect until the hunter changes it instead of counting against her minutes per day.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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If your character has lost his giant worm companion and never intends to replace him, I hope that you fully roleplay the deep mourning for "Vermicelli" (or whatever it is you name your dearly departed worm.) The loss of an animal companion would be a big deal to someone from the Hunter class, a class that is all about the bond between the PC and his or her animal friend.
I'm assuming that this is for a dip? Because I don't think there is any reason to keep playing a hunter if you don't have an animal companion that you can share teamwork feats with.
Hmm
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The proposed build replaces the teamwork feats via Divine Hunter. This particular hunter worships Kurgess and gets the Strength domain in place of those feats. I intend to either do full Hunter or make a 1 level dip into Barbarian.
Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.
But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"
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Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"
To be fair, I don't see a lot of folks doing that when Fluffy VI gets smashed and will shortly be replaced by Fluffy VII.
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To be fair, I don't see a lot of folks doing that when Fluffy VI gets smashed and will shortly be replaced by Fluffy VII.Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"
They'd better. Its in the animal companions union contract.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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The proposed build replaces the teamwork feats via Divine Hunter. This particular hunter worships Kurgess and gets the Strength domain in place of those feats. I intend to either do full Hunter or make a 1 level dip into Barbarian.
Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.
Sorry for suggesting, that you are an evil dipper ^^, that sounds like fun.
Edit: Just noticed, that this combination could result in a celestial worm...
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Give him ranks in Heal, and you could call him Dr. Worm. He's not a real doctor, but he is a real worm.
I think I'm getting good, but I can handle criticism.
Sadly, the worm stuff doesn't work out from what I can find as I don't see any worm vermin companions. Also, I'm not sure how you could give Perform: Percussion to a worm.
The Vermin Focus would most assuredly be Leech, so I could have a tragically a-salted leech companion.
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::Aside to Flutter, Head of the Friends of Non-Humanoid Pathfinders::
As Official Secretary of the Friends of Non-Humanoid Pathfinders Union, I am disturbed by recent events. Do you think that we should start a crusade for the protection of Verminious Companions? The poor things do appear to be endangered.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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To be fair, I don't see a lot of folks doing that when Fluffy VI gets smashed and will shortly be replaced by Fluffy VII.Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"
My Zahra would totally do that if her beloved Pumpkin was slain. She is rather protective of her tiger. I am glad that you are planning to roleplay the loss of your leech.
(There's a leech companion? Eew.)
Hmm
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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According to Hero Lab your options are:
Ant, Giant
Beetle, Giant
Centipede, Giant
Crab, Giant (Oh Polemon, you were so ahead of your time)
Leech, Giant
Mantis, Giant
Scorpion, Giant
Slug, Giant
Spider, Giant
Wasp, Giant
Mantis seems quite decent, with two attacks and grab.
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::A rough looking Kellid woman with a (mediumsized) mammoth at her side steps up::
It makes no bloody sense.
I don't understand those people who keep mourning over their lost companions. Friends, whether humanoid or animal or maybe even stranger die, you mourn them, and then you make new friends.
Your first companion dying will be terrible, and it'll take longer to mourn them, they'll never leave your memory, but if you react to each death that way you have no business being an adventurer. Become a hermit, or start working as a clerk in the Grand Lodge library where you have less risk of loss.
However, I am too quite disturbed by the amount of mourning that is going on for verminious companions. Someone needs to give those people a good talking to about the way of life.
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Mantis is, by far, the best of the vermin companions for combat purposes. It also turns large at 7th and can fly and climb right out the gate. It's a strong contender even against some of the standard ACs.
The leech is even fairly decent, really. Not great by any stretch, but it's got some fun stuff, especially once it gets Blindsight 30' at 7th.
Leech, Giant
Starting Statistics: Size Small; Speed 5 ft., swim 20 ft.; AC +0 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4 plus attach); Ability Scores Str 9, Dex 14, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1; Special Attacks attach, blood drain (1 Str); Special Qualities amphibious, blindsense 30 ft., scent, susceptible to salt; CMD can't be tripped.7th-Level Advancement: Size Medium; Attack bite (1d6 plus attach); Ability Scores Str +2, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks blood drain (1 Str and 1 Con damage); Special Qualities blindsight 30 ft.
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To be fair, I don't see a lot of folks doing that when Fluffy VI gets smashed and will shortly be replaced by Fluffy VII.Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"My Zahra would totally do that if her beloved Pumpkin was slain. She is rather protective of her tiger. I am glad that you are planning to roleplay the loss of your leech.
(There's a leech companion? Eew.)
Hmm
Same, my hunter would be devastated at first if Libi died. That's why she's armoring the mammoth up, and she's now walking around in a fullplate barding.
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Would really be funny yes :).
I'm currently going through the Thornkeep levels with Shamira and Libi and a fairly consistent group and they are starting to appreciate my mammoth, especially since she killed the final bbeg of the level we just finished, while walking across the ceiling with help of a spider climb spell.
One of the people I frequently play with lately (Ascalaphus) has this crazy idea of having his roc companion fly around with my mammoth in it's claws for s~+~s and giggles. Would require his roc to become large before my mammoth and me actually taking off the armor, for weight restriction reasons =P
And now back ontopic, while it's mechanically possible to do, and I see why someone would want from a powergaming point of view, I don't like the mechanism the way it's now, but any other ways of handling are just as prone to being used that way. I see the hunter as being even more focused on a functional partnership with a companion than the summoner, and doing away with the companion for the mechanical benefits just feels wrong and dirty.
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And now back ontopic, while it's mechanically possible to do, and I see why someone would want from a powergaming point of view, I don't like the mechanism the way it's now, but any other ways of handling are just as prone to being used that way. I see the hunter as being even more focused on a functional partnership with a companion than the summoner, and doing away with the companion for the mechanical benefits just feels wrong and dirty.
If the ability didn't reference "died," this wouldn't be an issue. Or, honestly, if the Feral Hunter was a better archetype. Sadly, some sacrifices must be made in pursuit of silly grappling builds. In its current half-built state, this hunter has a standing +8 CMB to grapple at level 1.
My gobin ranger totally did the NOOOO type thing when his Dire Weasel companion he used as a mount got the axe... It was named Banyon, he was avenged.
But an intelligence of "-" is not the same as an intelligence of 0, so I don't think a +2 increase would work in that case.
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David - that's actually addressed in the Vermin Companion rules. Yes, it does.
Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. In spite of this, vermin companions may learn one trick, plus additional bonus tricks. If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion's Intelligence, changing it from — to 1, at which point the companion loses the mindless quality and is able to know up to 3 tricks per point of Intelligence, plus the additional bonus tricks. Vermin companions have no skill points or feats as long as they have the mindless quality.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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One of the people I frequently play with lately (Ascalaphus) has this crazy idea of having his roc companion fly around with my mammoth in it's claws for s%%&s and giggles. Would require his roc to become large before my mammoth and me actually taking off the armor, for weight restriction reasons =P
Sounds like I need to level my huntsmaster inquisitor a bit more.
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To be fair, I don't see a lot of folks doing that when Fluffy VI gets smashed and will shortly be replaced by Fluffy VII.Bemoaning the loss of his irreplaceable companion is definitely in the RP plan. I was just hoping to have that loss occur off-screen.But then you don't get to cradle the companion's limp body in your arms and scream, "Noooooooooo!"
Ask the entire room where we had PFS for Con of the North 2012 if one of our locals does that or not...
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My opinion is this:
Giving up your companion for the permanent bonus from Animal Focus is an abuse of an imprecise rule. The author obviously did not consider that you might just choose to never recall an animal.
I feel this is especially true since there is an archetype that grants you animal focus without an animal companion.
Legal? Sure.
When they fully write up the errata for the book, don't be surprised if this loophole is filled.
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My opinion is this:
Giving up your companion for the permanent bonus from Animal Focus is an abuse of an imprecise rule. The author obviously did not consider that you might just choose to never recall an animal.
I feel this is especially true since there is an archetype that grants you animal focus without an animal companion.
Legal? Sure.
When they fully write up the errata for the book, don't be surprised if this loophole is filled.
I find it odd that you choose to make a moral question of this use of the rules when the pregen hunter offers a special rule that accomplishes exactly what I'd love for the class to do. I would much rather leave my pet ant, Sindapants, back at home when it makes sense, then be able to bring him along when party make-up requires. That, however, is the exclusive purview of a pregen character.
We all know that RAW and RAI are frequently different things, but a pregen like this is really a statement of some sort of intent from the campaign, in my opinion. Is using the pregen's special rule an "abuse"? I should certainly hope not, but it's certainly not written into the class itself.
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Was not aware the pregen had that stipulation.
It may be that my interpretation of how the class is supposed to work is wrong. I still don't believe though, that the intent was to be able to leave your AC dead just to get the extra bonus as a permanent bonus in perpetuity.
I believe that the pregen doesn't give you that "my AC is dead bonus" as a permanent one, but rather as a 1 minute per day bonus.
More likely, they allow you to do this with the pregen for two reasons:
1) Allow a new player to play a hunter without the complication of actually having an animal companion.
2) Allow a player to experience what its like to play the hunter without the AC without having to build an alternate pregen with the archetype.
In any case, the entire point of the hunter, is that you get this crazy synergy with your animal companion. And if you are just using the class to exploit the special bonus you get (that is, in my opinion, intended to to give you a small boost to tied you over till you get a new animal) when your animal dies, then I don't feel you are truly playing a Hunter, and thus its an abuse of a loophole.
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So what if you choose to leave your animal dead? Compared to the very powerful companion, having only the animal focus isn't all that strong. You might not like the flavour, but it's not OP.
In and of itself, no, it isn't. And if you plan to play a straight (or at least primarily) hunter, then I likely will not care if you want to nerf yourself a bit.
However, if we set the precedent, that this is ok, and not an abuse of a loophole, then this becomes a prime target for a 1 level dip to get another +2 bonus on something that someone is trying to min/max the crap outta.
And even just this particular issue, while it isn't a one-level dip, it is using this aspect of the class, to min-max a grapple build.
Some of the most egregious OP builds out there, include multiple single level dips to get extra stackable bonuses on whatever the build is supposed to be good at (or to negate the balancing weakness of a particular class/archetype.) If this is deemed ok, then we are opening it up to an allowance for a single level dip to further create an OP monstrosity.
So what if you choose to leave your animal dead? Compared to the very powerful companion, having only the animal focus isn't all that strong. You might not like the flavour, but it's not OP.In and of itself, no, it isn't. And if you plan to play a straight (or at least primarily) hunter, then I likely will not care if you want to nerf yourself a bit.
However, if we set the precedent, that this is ok, and not an abuse of a loophole, then this becomes a prime target for a 1 level dip to get another +2 bonus on something that someone is trying to min/max the crap outta.
And even just this particular issue, while it isn't a one-level dip, it is using this aspect of the class, to min-max a grapple build.
Some of the most egregious OP builds out there, include multiple single level dips to get extra stackable bonuses on whatever the build is supposed to be good at (or to negate the balancing weakness of a particular class/archetype.) If this is deemed ok, then we are opening it up to an allowance for a single level dip to further create an OP monstrosity.
Sorry, but honestly, single classed things can be just as bad.
Oracle of heavens (may be banned, I donno)Slumberwitch
A well played wizard
Barbarians with pounce
And several others...
You don't need to multi-class to be an "op monstrosity". You just have to multi-class to be one of the most powerful "op monstrosities".
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Designer Mark Seifter's response to the AC permadeath idea: "Go for it!" If it was an "abuse of a loophole", I think it would have gotten a different response. (Though I'm still not a fan of the dip version, but I'll leave that in the category of my own personal preference.)
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Dafydd is reading it a A + (B for one minute per day) and Andrew is reading it as A + B (for one minute per day) or (A for one minute per day) + (B for one minute per day).
I can see the confusion, but the ACG is clear that the bonus from the animal is a permanent one, that can be changed at the same time you activate your own.