Best way to do TWF now.


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I am always a fan of TWF concept, but with full BaB. Does anyone have any suggestions with all the recent additions? Sort of thinking Blood Rager, but I am sure there are better.


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The only classes I'd consider doing TWF with is the Ranger and Slayer, who can bypass the dex requirements for the TWF feats and get bonus feats.

You can pull off some pretty good damage with classes that add extra damage per hit, like a smiting Paladin or something with Sneak Attack, but good luck pulling off a good build without bonus feats and needing to split your ability scores to reach the high dex requirements for some of the later TWF feats.

I would avoid Bloodragers and Barbarians for TWFing. Their rage synergizes better with two handed weapons, and they don't have bonus feats to help dampen the feat heavy TWF chain.


Brawlers are decent as well since they get bonus damage with weapons in the close group. But yeah, Slayers are definitely the best TWFers since they can bypass prereqs, can get the TWF feats as bonus feats and have sneak attack to boot.

Liberty's Edge

Well, if you're fine with using slashing grace and sawtooth sabres, fighters can now make pretty decent TWFers pretty early.

I'd still say Slayers are probably your best bet though. Followed closely by Rangers.


Lyra Amary wrote:

The only classes I'd consider doing TWF with is the Ranger and Slayer, who can bypass the dex requirements for the TWF feats and get bonus feats.

You can pull off some pretty good damage with classes that add extra damage per hit, like a smiting Paladin or something with Sneak Attack, but good luck pulling off a good build without bonus feats and needing to split your ability scores to reach the high dex requirements for some of the later TWF feats.

I would avoid Bloodragers and Barbarians for TWFing. Their rage synergizes better with two handed weapons, and they don't have bonus feats to help dampen the feat heavy TWF chain.

Eh, as long as you have a decent point buy (20 pt), it is not hard to pull off a strength based TWFer with most martial classes, and without doing any dumps. Here are the example stats

STR: 16 (14) DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 10

You can mess with the mental stats at your leisure, and you can switch strength and dex if you have a +dex race. The point is: 16 base DEX is the key. Put your 4th level abiltiy score adjustment into it, and with 17 DEX, you qualify for all the good TWF feats. The only one that needs 19 DEX that comes to mind is Greater TWF...and that hits at BAB-12 (so not worth it).

I will agree about bloodragers and barbarians though. Their main draw is the stat boost of their rage, which does not translate to TWF. You need something that gives a damage bonus to each and every hit. So favored enemy, sneak attack, weapon training, challenge, etc.

Yeah, rangers and slayers are fairly good at this job. They have an easier time with the feats, and they have great damage boosting mechanics. Still, it is very possible for you to pull this off with fighters or cavaliers.

There are also other classes which... have a harder time pulling off the above since they also have a need for a big mental stat to worry about. Inquisitors, paladins, come types of bard (dervish dancer is better off skipping dervish dance). I can...manage a half decent build with those, but they tend to be painful due to intense dumps.

Here is an example set for bard/paladins; due to the spare points, I got a 17 DEX from the get go, but you can switch that around with str.
STR: 16 (14) DEX: 17 CON: 14 INT: 7 WIS: 7 CHA: 14


lemeres wrote:
Eh, as long as you have a decent point buy (20 pt), it is not hard to pull off a strength based TWFer with most martial classes, and without doing any dumps.

Don't forget the Human ability to take Dual Talent and boost two stats... makes it really rather simple to pull off.

15/17STR, 15/17DEX, 14CON, 11/10/10 or whatever.

The Warpriest can TWF well through the fact that it has so many bonus feats (including grabbing offhand iteratives before mainhand ones), as well as several straight damage buffs available.


I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?

Alternatives are welcomed.


BadBird wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Eh, as long as you have a decent point buy (20 pt), it is not hard to pull off a strength based TWFer with most martial classes, and without doing any dumps.

Don't forget the Human ability to take Dual Talent and boost two stats... makes it really rather simple to pull off.

15/17STR, 15/17DEX, 14CON, 11/10/10 or whatever.

The Warpriest can TWF well through the fact that it has so many bonus feats (including grabbing offhand iteratives before mainhand ones), as well as several straight damage buffs available.

Easier to putt off the paladin, inquisitor, bard, and alchemist as well. Here is an example of a bard or paladin. Just switch CHA with your main casting stat for other classes.

STR: 16 (14) DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 8 CHA: 14(12)

But the thing I set up above was more to show how you could do it with just about any race, since most have a bonus to either STR or DEX. +CON races are a bit trickier, since they really have to make the most out of the points they save with their bonuses. Here is a dwarf example:

STR: 16 DEX: 16 CON: 14 (12) INT: 10 WIS: 10 (8) CHA: 8 (10)

On another note: I am unsure of how well warpriest fare though. Sacred weapon takes a swift action per weapon. I suppose you could focus on making 1 of them sacred for the enhancement bonus, and the other would be normally enhanced. It would save your wallet at least. Destruction blessing seems like it would be rather nice for TWF though, since that is 1/2 your level in extra damage per hit.

Oh, I also want to mention- if you are going strength build TWF, then double weapons are awesome. From the simple quarterstaff to the exotic double sword to the racial orc double ax or the dwarven doublewarace or urgrosh, these weapons hold a key advantage over most TWF weapon choices- they can be 2 handed without any problems. Yes, double weapons can be either 2 handed or used as a 1handed/light combo (obviously you can't switch around in the same full attack). So when you have to make a move action, they provide that sweet, sweet 1.5x str and power attack bonuses.


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Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?

Alternatives are welcomed.

Horizon walker is FULL Bab, it's meant to be taken off of ranger really, but slayer could do it.

Requires endurance as a feat tax, needs a semi decent wisdom to work, but take levels 7, 8, and 9 as a horizon walker, and take astral as your terrain dominance pick (3rd level HW, 9th character level)
now you can being your dimensional dervish feat tree because this gives you dimension door as an SLA (wis based)
all while remaining full BAB.

it's seriously a fun character concept…

someone will cry broken, which it probably is…but HW was made long before there was a slayer…. keep in mind with that feat tree, you can *BAMF* as many times as you can attack, AND you will eventually be able to flank *with yourself*

OUCH!

Scarab Sages

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I have a Halfling Abberant Bloodrager that dual wields kukris. His damage output would be higher if he had a two handed weapon, but he gets more chances to get his Staggering Strike to trigger. It's a fun fighting style, just keep in mind that your damage output will always be better with a two handed weapon.


Pendagast wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I really like the idea of slayer. Now, how about trying to move in fast and getting full BaB at the same time. What about trying to get the dimensional agility feat tree? Maybe get into Eldritch Knight somehow, to keep the full BaB going?

Alternatives are welcomed.

Horizon walker is FULL Bab, it's meant to be taken off of ranger really, but slayer could do it.

Requires endurance as a feat tax, needs a semi decent wisdom to work, but take levels 7, 8, and 9 as a horizon walker, and take astral as your terrain dominance pick (3rd level HW, 9th character level)
now you can being your dimensional dervish feat tree because this gives you dimension door as an SLA (wis based)
all while remaining full BAB.

it's seriously a fun character concept…

someone will cry broken, which it probably is…but HW was made long before there was a slayer…. keep in mind with that feat tree, you can *BAMF* as many times as you can attack, AND you will eventually be able to flank *with yourself*

OUCH!

HOLLY CRAP! That is an awesome suggestion!!! Works perfectly with my character concept too.


lemeres wrote:
On another note: I am unsure of how well warpriest fare though. Sacred weapon takes a swift action per weapon. I suppose you could focus on making 1 of them sacred for the enhancement bonus, and the other would be normally enhanced. It would save your wallet at least.

Speaking of Warpriest and Paladin, check out Dual Enhancement. Dual wield Paladins, arise!

Quote:
Oh, I also want to mention- if you are going strength build TWF, then double weapons are awesome.... Yes, double weapons can be either 2 handed or used as a 1handed/light combo.

Also, one-handed weapon combined with Cestus / Spiked Gauntlet / Improved Unarmed Strike can do the same thing in a different way.


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Pendagast wrote:
OUCH!

I have to hand it to you, I had completely discounted that PrC, and all PrCs entirely before. Jumping into this PrC, with many classes, really helps things out.


BadBird wrote:
lemeres wrote:
On another note: I am unsure of how well warpriest fare though. Sacred weapon takes a swift action per weapon. I suppose you could focus on making 1 of them sacred for the enhancement bonus, and the other would be normally enhanced. It would save your wallet at least.

Speaking of Warpriest and Paladin, check out Dual Enhancement. Dual wield Paladins, arise!

Quote:
Oh, I also want to mention- if you are going strength build TWF, then double weapons are awesome.... Yes, double weapons can be either 2 handed or used as a 1handed/light combo.
Also, one-handed weapon combined with Cestus / Spiked Gauntlet / Improved Unarmed Strike can do the same thing in a different way.

Dual enhancement...my first thought is 'feat tax'. I am not entirely familiar with E6.. does it allow more feats past level 6, or is it just a straight stop? I am never sure what is house rules in these situations. Anyway, if it stops...not that good a deal, since you already ahve a lot on your plate.

Fair enough on that last point about glove type weapons. Double weapons do have an advantage if you take things like weapon focus though


How would you go about building a Slayer / Horizon Walker *BAMF* character?


Matt2VK wrote:
How would you go about building a Slayer / Horizon Walker *BAMF* character?

I am not one to power game too badly. I was thinking about making a truly unstoppable threat melee combatant. I was thinking Qlippoth-Spawn Tiefling (+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Int). The Blur SA really would help too. This goes with the multiplaner nature of this suggested build.


I just built this for RotRL campaign.

1/2 Elf[drow-blooded] Slayer 2/ Alchemist[Trap breaker/Vivisectionist] 3

Str 18 (10, +2) Dex 15 (7) Con 12 (2) Int 14 (5) Wis 10 Cha 7 (-4)

Feats: 1st=Catch-off-guard 3rd= TWF 5th=enforcer

2nd=Slayer Talent=Combat trick [Bludgeoner]

4th=Discovery=preserve organs

Traits: Bruising Intellect, surprise weapon

I am modeling him off of Dr. Who a bit.

+12/+12 Umbrella/ satchel of books (1d6+6+2d6/1d6+6+2d6) plus shaken

This is with flanking and mutagen of course.

Not too bad. At 7th, I will take Sap adept.


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Matt2VK wrote:
How would you go about building a Slayer / Horizon Walker *BAMF* character?

Im not a theory crafter/build master so I do apologize, but let me take a stab at this.

Human Slayer 15 point build (for APs) Take Dual Talent Human

Str 13(15) Dex 14(16) Con 13 Int 12 Wis 12 cha 10

1st level Slayer: EWP Sawtooth Sabre
2nd level Slayer: Talent TWF
3rd level Slayer: Sneak attack +1d6, Endurance
4th level Slayer: +1 to dex, Slayer Talent, Double slice
5th level Slayer: FEAT (haven't decided yet possibly weapon focus)
6th level Slayer: Improved two weapon fighting, 2d6 sneak attack
7th level: Horizon walker: Favored Terrain :whatever you like, another FEAT
8th level Horizon walker: favored terrain astral, terrain mastery astral, +1 Str
9th level horizon walker: Terrain dominance Astral (this gets you dimension door SLA 4/day with 12 wis) and dimensional agility.
10th level Back to slayer (level 7)
11th level , slayer level 8 dimensional assault and a slayer talent.
12th level slayer 9 sneak attack is now 3d6
13th level slayer level 10, advanced talents and dimensional dervish

you have arrived!

13th level is key, although I haven't perfected the build yet or played the character, since slayer has access to ninja tricks, and I have unfilled feat and talent slots.
Im pretty sure this opens up invisible blade as well.

This is a FULL BAB 3D6 SA having Two Weapon fighting, BAMFING invisible nightmare!

edit: oh and he has 6 attacks (so he bamfs 6 times) all of which can use sneak attack (3d6) because he flanks with himself.

it's a little limited in that he can only pull off this trick 4 times per day, but there might be a feat like "extra SLAs" somewhere Im not aware of?
and technically the rep requisite for the feat chain is the ABILITY to dimension door, trigger the feat deosnt necessary require it come from you… so you might be abel to get magic items or wands to do it more often.

it also seems you might be able to min max and go dex to damage with slashing grace as I have a few feats unspoken for in there, and you could net an extra one my not using dual talent human to get more STR (since you won't need it)


I haven't built a TWF guy since 3.5, so dot.

Keep those builds and ideas coming.


Dot!


ok…so Im mistaken… he can't take ninja invisible blade stuff… his rogue/ninja talents are limited.

but it doesn't matter that much really due to his high mobility.

Im looking into finishing this guy off, to make him more useable than just a 4round wonder, not that he's not cool already without teleporting, but he does need some rounding out.

looking into it….


Here's two builds for maximum meatgrind.

Taldrin the Terrifying:
Taldrin the Terrifying

Level 12 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary

Str:24 (+2 race, +3 levels, +4 belt)
Dex:15
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:11

Feats/Talents:
1: Power Attack
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Ranger Style (Two Weapon Fighting)
3: Double Slice
4: Trapfinding
5: Intimidating Prowess
6: Ranger Style (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
7: Cornugon Smash
8: Weapon Training (Sawtooth Saber)
9: Dazzling Display
10: Ranger Style (Greater Two Weapon Fighting)
11: Shatter Defenses
12: Opportunist

If Traps aren't your thing, take Improved Crit instead, take Weapon Training at 4th, Combat Trick Improved Crit at 8th.

Gear:
Belt of Giant Str +4
Main Hand: +2 Cruel Sawtooth Saber
Off Hand: +3 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Eyes of the Eagle
Trapspringer's Gloves
Headband of Ninjitsu

Skills: 12 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +15
Climb +20
Perception +19(+24 vs Traps)
Stealth +15
Survival +14
Disable Device +20(+25 vs Traps)
Intimidate +22(+25 against Favored Target)

DEFENSES
HP: 106
AC: 25
Fort:+13 Ref:+13 Will:+8

OFFENSES:
Favored Target grants a +3 to Attack and Weapon Damage Rolls. Swift Action to place.
Attack Bonus Calculation: 12(BAB)+7(Str)+3(Fav.Targ)+3(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +24
Attack Bonus without Power Attacking with Favored Target up:
MainHand:+24/+19/+14 OffHand:+23/+18/+13
Damage: 1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+12/1d8+12/1d8+12

Attack Bonus while P.A with Favored Target:
Mainhand:+20/+15/+10 Offhand: +21/+16/+11
Damage: 1d8+20/1d8+20/1d8+20/1d8+16/1d8+16/1d8+16

Damage while Sneak Attacking Favored Target with Power Attack:
1d8+20+4d6 X3 1d8+16+4d6 X3

Tactics: Power Attack ALL the time. You get to Intimidate off of EACH one. DC20+ Wis Mod, We should get it with
our +25. Once you shaken them, make all the attacks with the Cruel Weapon, Sickened is an AWESOME condition. This combo nets your team a -4 to the creature's saves and attack rolls.


And
Taldrin the Whirlwind:
Taldrin the Hurricane

Level 10 Human Slayer (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored, Reactionary

Str:16(22) (Base 16+2Human and Ability points at 4 and 8)
Dex:15(17)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:12
Cha:10

Feats/Talents:
1: Two Weapon Fighting
Human: EWP Sawtooth Saber
2: Weapon Training (Sawtooth Saber)
3: Power Attack
4: Combat Trick (Double Slice)
5: Step Up
6: Rogue Crawl
7: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
8: Fast Stealth
9: Combat Reflexes
10: Opportunist (This is crazy good for the Slayer)

Gear:
Belt of Physical Might (+2 Str and Dex)
+2 Sawtooth Saber
+2 Sawtooth Saber
Cloak of Resistance +3
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
+3 Mithril Breastplate
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1

Skills: 10 Ranks +3 Class Skill on each
Acrobatics +16
Climb +19
Perception +14
Stealth +16
Survival +14

DEFENSES
HP: 89
AC: 26
Fort:+12 Ref:+13 Will:+7

OFFENSES:
Favored Target grants a +3 to Attack and Weapon Damage Rolls. Swift Action to place.
Attack Bonus Calculation: 10(BAB)+6(Str)+3(Fav.Targ)+2(Wep.En)+1(Wep Focus)-2(Two Weapon Fighting)= +22
Attack Bonus without Power Attacking with Favored Target up: +20/+20/+15/+15
Damage: 1d8+11/1d8+11/1d8+11/1d8+11

Attack Bonus while P.A with Favored Target: +18/+18/+13/+13
Damage: 1d8+13/1d8+13/1d8+12/1d8+12

Damage while Sneak Attacking: 1d8+11+3d6/1d8+11+3d6/1d8+10+3d6/1d8+10+3d6

I'll admit that Slashing Grace is an awesome thing to shoot for since it lets you consolidate your stats better. Sawtooth Sabres forever!

Edit: My numbers might be a little off but should be mostly right. I'm fairly certain Slayers make THE best TWFighters.


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here's my new list of progression:

human Slayer.
15 point build:

Str 10 Dex 16(18) Con 12 Int 10 Wis 13 Cha 10

1st level , WP Whip, Wep Focus Whip
2nd level, Slayer talent: Two weapon fighting
3rd level, Endurance
4th level, Slayer Talent Whip mastery,+1 Dex
5th level Weapon finesse Whip
Level 6 Slayer Talent Improve two weapon fighting
level 7 Horizon walker favored terrain :plains , Feat slashing grace
Level 8 Horizon walker favored terrain astral, terrain mastery astral ,+1 dex
Level 9 horizon walker terrain dominance astral, dimensional agility
Level 10 Slayer 7, Stalker
Level 11 Feat Dimensional Assault, Slayer 8 Talent Improved Whip mastery
Level 12 Slayer 9 total sneak attack 3d6 , +1 wis
Level 13 slayer 10, Feat: Dimensional dervish, Advanced Talent: choice of evasion, greater whip mastery, or assassination.

Character runs whip mastery feat chain, dimensional feat chain and two weapon fighting feat chain, with 6 attacks, 5 bamfs per day and Full BAB 3d6 sneak attack.
Plus threatening at nasty reach and sneak attacking at reach as well as close in.

Bumping up the wis not only gives the character 2 more ports per day, but shores up his weak save (will) as well.

Pretty nasty

Id like to fit in combat reflexes and Iron will to be honest.
IF you didn't use whips, It would be possible I think.

You could also go with a strength build and not run with slashing grace, freeing up more feats , if you wanted to use more combat maneuvers with the whips, or you could find somewhere to add in agile maneuvers.

other interesting feats for this build could (due to higher wisdom) could be taking the grit feat and amateur swashbuckler (since panache and grit are the same pool) and grabbing opportune parry and riposte.


Pendagast wrote:

Str 13(15) Dex 14(16) Con 13 Int 12 Wis 12 cha 10

1st level Slayer: EWP Sawtooth Sabre
2nd level Slayer: Talent TWF
3rd level Slayer: Sneak attack +1d6, Endurance
4th level Slayer: +1 to dex, Slayer Talent, Double slice

Thought the point to doing slayer was that you didn't need Dex any more? So you could put the 2nd stat into Wisdom. Plus there is always items to up your wisdom.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

Str 13(15) Dex 14(16) Con 13 Int 12 Wis 12 cha 10

1st level Slayer: EWP Sawtooth Sabre
2nd level Slayer: Talent TWF
3rd level Slayer: Sneak attack +1d6, Endurance
4th level Slayer: +1 to dex, Slayer Talent, Double slice

Thought the point to doing slayer was that you didn't need Dex any more? So you could put the 2nd stat into Wisdom. Plus there is always items to up your wisdom.

And since sawtooth sabers are 1 handed weapons, you can't get them to work off dex unless you take both slashing grace and swashbuckler (they are only light for TWF penalties).

That is their main selling point now- they are the only weapons that can do slashing grace and still do a decent TWF (since the feat only works on 1 handed weapons, which normally leads to -4/-4).

So that seems to also put a kabash on your whip build up there too (I had other reasons to find it...iffy- you don't take weapon finesse until level 5 when you have 10 str and are facing double TWF penalties?)


You can either make strength based twf by using slater or ranger. They are about neck-and-neck with each other. If you're going to higher levels the ranger is a little better because of the extra bonus style feats at 14th and 18th level. Which can be a big deal since you wont qualify for TWF feats otherwise.

Otherwise for a dex build, I suggest a level in Swashbuckler or Daring Champion Cavalier followed by levels in whatever your preferred full BAB class is. With Weapon Focus and Slashing Grace you can be a fully dex based build eschewing strength entirely (well, not entirely, leave it at 10 so you can carry stuff). Use sawtooth sabers but it's exotic, so it eats up another feat...but the pay-off is there in the long run. It's feat intensive, but works. Something with a extra bonus feats helps a lot.

For a character that only goes to 10th or 12th level the strength build probably comes out ahead and is much less feat intensive because the dex build requires Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, and an EWP to work on top of all the TWF feats. If you can afford agile you can eschew the levels in swashbuckler and slashing grace, and instead go for agile kukris with weapon finesse.


lemeres wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

Str 13(15) Dex 14(16) Con 13 Int 12 Wis 12 cha 10

1st level Slayer: EWP Sawtooth Sabre
2nd level Slayer: Talent TWF
3rd level Slayer: Sneak attack +1d6, Endurance
4th level Slayer: +1 to dex, Slayer Talent, Double slice

Thought the point to doing slayer was that you didn't need Dex any more? So you could put the 2nd stat into Wisdom. Plus there is always items to up your wisdom.

And since sawtooth sabers are 1 handed weapons, you can't get them to work off dex unless you take both slashing grace and swashbuckler (they are only light for TWF penalties).

That is their main selling point now- they are the only weapons that can do slashing grace and still do a decent TWF (since the feat only works on 1 handed weapons, which normally leads to -4/-4).

So that seems to also put a kabash on your whip build up there too (I had other reasons to find it...iffy- you don't take weapon finesse until level 5 when you have 10 str and are facing double TWF penalties?)

hmm true… but a I said before, I don't do theory crafting,,,,someone above said how do you make one?

so I took a stab at it.

Can easily put STR at 14 (5 points) Dex at 14 ( 5 points for reflex and Ac) Con 12 (2 points) Int 10 Wis 13 (3 points) and Cha 10

Str becomes 16 from +2

Level 1-6 slayer:
Weapon focus sabers, EWP Sabres, two weapon fighting, Endurance, Improved two weapon fighting, slashing grace, and have a feat open for something like Iron will, or combat reflexes.

Str at 17, 18 by level 8
Then go into the Astral Horizon walker levels.
Still need to go to level 13 to get all the feats tho.


I've seen your builds and I really liked the concept of this type of teleporting character.
I'm not really good with this kind of thing, but since no one posted a Ranger Build with this kind of flavour, I decided to do one of my own.

Human Divine Tracker Ranger 12/Horizon Walker 3.
Dual Talented Human (str) (wis)
20 point buy
Str 15 (17) Dex 14 Con 13 Int 10 Wis 14 (16) Cha 10

level 1 Ranger - Divine Tracker Favored Weapon (Sawtooth Sabre); Feat: Weapon Focus (Sawtooth Sabre); Favored Enemy 1; Track
level 2 Ranger - Combat Style: TWF
level 3 Ranger - Feat: Combat Reflexes; Endurance; Favored Terrain 1
level 4 Ranger - Divine Tracker Blessings: (Death) (Trickery); +1 STR
level 5 Ranger - Feat: Improved Critical (Sawtooth Sabre); Favored Enemy 2
Level 6 Ranger - Combat Style: Improved TWF
level 7 H.W. - Feat: Outflank; H.W. Favored terrain;
Level 8 H.W. - Favored terrain: Astral*; Terrain Mastery: Astral; +1 WIS
Level 9 H.W. - Terrain Dominance: Astral; Feat: Dimensional Agility
Level 10 Ranger - Combat Style: Double Slice; Woodland Stride
Level 11 Ranger - Feat: Dimensional Assault; Swift Tracker; Favored Terrain
Level 12 Ranger - Evasion; +1 WIS
Level 13 Ranger - Feat: Dimensional Dervish; Favored Enemy 3
Level 14 Ranger - Quarry
Level 15 Ranger - Feat: Dimensional Savant; Camouflage

By choosing the Divine Tracker Archetype and choosing Achaekek as deity, you automaticaly get the Sawtooth Sabre proficiency. At lvl 4 you also gain two Warpriest minor Blessings from Achaekek's list. I chose Trickery and Death because they give nice bonus and offer options for your swift action when you can't BAMF if you get to lvl 16 (ranger 13) and get the Major blessings.

Death Blessing:

From the Grave (minor): At 1st level, you can take on a corpse-like visage for 1 minute, making you more intimidating and giving you undead-like protection from harm. You gain a +4 bonus on Disguise checks to resemble an undead creature and on Intimidate checks, as well as a +2 profane bonus on saving throws against disease, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and stun.

Death's Touch (major): At 10th level, you can make a melee touch attack against an opponent to deliver grim suffering. If you succeed, you inflict 1 temporary negative level on the target for 1 minute. Alternatively, you can activate this ability as a swift action upon hitting an opponent with a melee attack. These temporary negative levels stack. You gain no benefit from imposing these negative levels (such as the temporary hit points undead gain from enervation).

Trickery Blessing:

Double (minor): At 1st level, as a move action you can create an illusory double of yourself. This double functions as a single mirror image, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your warpriest level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one double at a time. This ability doesn't stack with the additional damage from the mirror image spell.

Greater Invisibility (major): At 10th level, as a swift action you can become invisible for 1 round (as greater invisibility).

I went in with combat reflexes and added the Teamwork Feat Outflank. With that and going two extra lvls to get Dimensional Savant, you start to flank with yourself from multiple squares, and since you count as your own ally, you basically just gain a huge bonus to hit and, depending on your GM, the chance to give yourself AoO on crits (I know it may be a stretching RAW and a little weird to conceive, but for that kind of feat investment, I would allow it)

What do you guys think?
It's the first time I post a build in here, so if there is something wrong or if I forgot something, please let me know.


Your third Combat Style feat happens at Ranger 10 rather than character level 10.

It should work OK, but with the caveat that you're sacrificing a whole lot for a big-payoff ability that doesn't come together until levels 13/15.

EDIT: or more specifically, sacrificing a whole lot to focus on a big-payoff ability.


i think that the BEST twf build that doesn't need to splice too much into dex for feats(actuly doesn't even NEED to take the feats) and get very high damage as he levels
..is the basic MONK.
think about it. they get the extra attac kwhen they get higher bab. they get all the monk speacial power ups.(ac .move. fall , fist high damage, imunities, saves etc etc etc etc). and they don't waste one feat to get it. all you need is good scores in str wis and dex.

you also save on weapons cost and if you ge the amoulet of mighty fists just need to keep adding to it's powe rto effect ALL of your attacks.


Monk is often underrated, but to be fair it's not really TWF when you're not using two weapons (well you can, but why?). It's also generally limited to weaker weapons and lacks the extra offensive edge of things like Slayer's Study or a Guide Ranger's powerful Ranger's Focus ability.

Of course, you could always try to find a reason to have a Sohei "TWF" with a Nodachi and Unarmed Strikes...


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
I am always a fan of TWF concept, but with full BaB. Does anyone have any suggestions with all the recent additions? Sort of thinking Blood Rager, but I am sure there are better.

The santified Slayer for the Inquisitor is not full Bab but with the attack boost and the extra attack of studied target/divine power/teamwork feats it's better. You can go full dex and keep str at 10 because your dps will come from sneak attack+bane+divine power+studied target+precise strike. With full dex you get amazing AC and to hit.

I have made a lvl 15 Sanctified Slayer with basic gear to test it. On a full round attack the Max DPR can reach 500+. You can also chose the animal domain to get an animal companion. It will boost your DPS further and will provide a tool to get constant flanking bonuses from teamwork feats and dpr boost of sneak attacks.

Oh and on top of all that you get the utility of 6th lvl divine spellcasting. Yeah, its a great archetype...


Folks are getting into some very fancy abilities here. That's great, and I won't try to top it. My simple suggestion is to consider using a shield as one of your two weapons. You can even use a heavy shield with a light weapon in your off hand.

Using a shield will probably help out your AC a lot in the long run, especially if you invest any feats in it. It will also let you make use of the potentially fun Shield Slam feat. Knocking folks prone is a pretty significant debuff. If you're playing a class that's chock full of feats you could also consider Bludgeoner + Enforcer. I guess you could get a similar effect with one less feat using the Merciful property on the shield. Either way, get the Cruel enchantment on your off hand weapon and you'll be a debuffing machine. A prone, shaken, sickened enemy is probably pretty close to a defeated enemy. There's also a Hurtful feat which would allow you to follow the free intimidate from Enforcer with a swift action attack on the same foe.

Most of that stuff besides the AC boost and Shield Slam isn't really shield specific. I like shields though.

Dark Archive

Human Ninja/Swashbuckler

S:10 D:18 C: 14 I:10 W:10 C:14 -- all bumps to DEX

1) N1 - +1d6 Sneak; EWP and Weapon Focus: Sawtooth Saber
2) S1 - Swashbuckler Finesse; Opportune Parry and Riposte
3) S2 Slashing Grace; Charmed Life (CHA to saves, 3/day)
4) S3 ; Menacing Swordplay; Precise Strike; Swashbuckler Initiative(+2); Nimble
5) S4 - Weapon Specialization: Sawtooth Saber; TWF
6) N2 - Ki Pool; Vanish trick
7)S5 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting; Swashbuckler Improved Crit; WT +1/+1
8) N3 +2d6Sneak
9) S6 - Steadfast Personality (CHA to Will for Mind-Effecting)
10) S7
11) S8 Greater Weapon Focus; FEAT

Weak offense for the first couple of levels, then begins to come together at level 3 with Slashing Grace.

Can't get a full attack to use your TWF? Use your Swashbuckler Precise Strike to get decent single attack damage. Decent skills, OK defenses (lacking in WILL saves) - fun, versatile character.

Liberty's Edge

Devilkiller wrote:

Folks are getting into some very fancy abilities here. That's great, and I won't try to top it. My simple suggestion is to consider using a shield as one of your two weapons. You can even use a heavy shield with a light weapon in your off hand.

Using a shield will probably help out your AC a lot in the long run, especially if you invest any feats in it. It will also let you make use of the potentially fun Shield Slam feat. Knocking folks prone is a pretty significant debuff. If you're playing a class that's chock full of feats you could also consider Bludgeoner + Enforcer. I guess you could get a similar effect with one less feat using the Merciful property on the shield. Either way, get the Cruel enchantment on your off hand weapon and you'll be a debuffing machine. A prone, shaken, sickened enemy is probably pretty close to a defeated enemy. There's also a Hurtful feat which would allow you to follow the free intimidate from Enforcer with a swift action attack on the same foe.

Most of that stuff besides the AC boost and Shield Slam isn't really shield specific. I like shields though.

As someone who's running a sword and board TWFer right now, I have to say the lack of damage is pretty disappointing when you're standing beside the raging barbarian, but there's something incredibly rewarding about the sequence of play where you shield bash an opponent into a wall, they fall prone, on their turn they attempt to stand up, you hit them with your sword, they go to move away from you, which provokes a shield bash, knocking them back to the ground.


Mechanically I think that monk is the best TWF if he only uses a monk weapon (temple sword) and flurrys with it.

Think about it. You pay for the sword once and uses it twice. You don't need a feat for full strenght in "offhand" attacks. You have full BAB for that purpose. And you get a lot of other fancy abilities (you don't need to spend all your resources and fears to get that iteration of attacks)

Sohei lets you do that with any weapon.

Best TWF is one handed. Sad but true.


It's painfully painfully glass cannon..
but a kinetcist is amusing... probalby not best though.

but with the shield ability, feel the burn, and ride the blast, and eventually using ride the blast via quick action you can really get into place easily. Mitigating health damage from the movement/gaining feel the burn in the morning is a bit of a problem though.

but it's pretty intetrsting.

Investigators are also pretty intereting due to their studied combat bonuses

I think slayer or monk with monk weapon are the best TWFs in the end though


I'd say a Weapon Master Fighter, using a medium and a small rapier. Then going into Sentinel.

Spoiler:

Human - Dual Talented
Weapon Master Fighter, Sentinel

Traits - Killer (Combat), Wendifa Apprentice (Faith)

Str 15(17), Dex 14(16), Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8

1st Fighter. Two-Weapon Fighting, Arcane Strike
2nd Fighter. Double Slice
3rd Fighter. Weapon Focus - Rapier
4th Fighter. Weapon Specialization - Rapier, +1 Dex
5th Fighter. Deific Obedience - Cayden Cailean
6th Sentinel.
7th Sentinel. Power Attack, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
8th Sentinel. +1 Str
9th Fighter. Improved Critical - Kukri, Greater Weapon Focus - Rapier
10th Fighter.
11th Sentinel. Iron Will

Sczarni

Can I suggest Half-Orc Slayer with Orcish Double Axe and Orc Weapon Expertise?

Or, a Half-orc Slayer, for all the same reasons, but with +2 to all saves with Fate's Favored, and Sacred Tattoo?

With a Breastplate, 12 Dex and a double axe, you have an AC of 19. Add Studied target for delicious damage on all attacks, lots of skills, and two high saves.

Also you're a half-orc who helicopters around with not one, but two axes. On a stick.


I'm gonna go a bit different in my approach, but I'm crazy like that

the build:

Race: Half Orc; Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice
Traits: Reactionary, Fate's Favored
20 pt buy: Str 16, Dex 17=15+2, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
alternately Str 17, Dex 17=15+2, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7
01 Slayer; TWF
02 Slayer; Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Power Attack
03 Slayer; Double Slice
04 Slayer; Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Weapon and Shield: Improved Shield Bash; +1 Str
05 Slayer; Iron Will
06 Slayer; Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Shield Master
07 HoriWalk; Improved TWF; Favored Terrain: whichever you see the most in the campaign
08 HoriWalk; Favored Terrain: Astral Plane; Terrain Mastery: Astral Plane; +1 Str
09 HoriWalk; Terrain Dominance: Astral Plane; Dimensional Agility
At this point try to retrain Double Slice and Iron Will to Dimensional Assault and Dervish, but that will require being able to take 10 days of downtime (2 sets of 5 days). Otherwise you'll have to stick it out picking up the dimensional line the hard way with your normal feat progression. Assuming you do retrain:
10 HW
11 HW; Dimensional Savant
12 HW; Terrain Dominance: whatever you see the most; +1 Str
13+ Slayer

If you really want Greater TWF, grab a deep red sphere ioun stone (+2 dex) or splurge some other way to get that +2 to Dex. Other than that, load up on Rogue Talent: Terrain Mastery with your talent slots and Extra Slayer Talent from your feats every odd level for more of the same so you can jack your counts-as-favored-enemy-bonus through the roof.
----------


2 shields because shield master removes the penalties from TWF and lets you count the shield enhancement bonus as a weapon enhancement bonus. 2 shield enchants cost the same as 1 weapon enchantment.

Sovereign Court

People have mentioned the ranger/slayer because they can ignore dex req. (though then their ac is weak if they go too low)

I'd say dip 1 level in swashbuckler & go straight fighter to ignore strength entirely.

With -
Swashbuckler's Finesse (not a feat - swashbuckler level 1 feature)
Prof:Sawtoothed Sabres
WF:Sawtoothed Sabres
Slashing Grace
TWF

You are suddenly using dex to hit & for damage. Sure - it's kinda feat intensive (not that using sawtoothed sabres Prof or WF are bad anyway) but fighters have feats to burn anyway. (And you get panache for that 1 level of swashbuckler too.)

Your damage will be every bit as good if not better than a strength based TWF once you hit level 3 (when the above comes online) plus your dex/initiative/reflex/AC(especially touch) will all be WAY higher.

And while a strength TWF still needs a dex of 14ish (even ranger/slayer to keep AC decent) a dex based TWF can have a strength of 8 and it doesn't matter sans encumbrance. Plus, a fighter can eventually get tons of extra dex to AC with armor training.


The other advantage of 1 level of Swashbuckler is that Opportune Parry and Riposte is a level 1 deed, which means you get a very nice defensive ability to use that panache on.


Are you allowed 3pp? If you are interested in going the Finesse route, there is a new feat from Paths of War called Deadly Agility that adds DEX to damage instead of STR. The main difference being that damage does not increase by 1/2 for two-handed weapons, but it also does not decrease by 1/2 for off-hand weapons. All the better for TWF.


I once built a character that ended up lvl 13 based on 2WF.

The back story is that he was a Japanese Noble in a house that was secretly undertaken by evil outsiders. By the time I noticed it, the damage was done and we were no longer being seen as a noble house. After a severe fight with the outsider where most of our retainers died, we reclaimed the house. The Shogun offered to reinstate the titles but as the sole heir I declined and now wander around in pursuit of Evil Outsiders to eradicate them and their agents wherever I see them.

*I noted you asked for a full BAB but the build (at lvl 13) is only 2 BAB behind a full BAB and the Inquisitor Bane and Ranger Favored ennemy makes up for this by adding damage.

** SOrry I have no idea how to hide a build to shorten a post :(

The character is as follows.

NAME : Azuki Yamada
RACE : Human
CLASS : Ranger 8 / Inquisitor 5
ALIGNEMENT : Lawful Good

DEITY
Name : Ragathiel
Alignement : Lawful Good
Portfolio : Chivalry, Duty, Vengeance
Domains : Destruction, Law, Good, Nobility
Favored Weapon : Bastard Sword

STR 18 +4
DEX 16 +3
CON 18 +4
INT 12 +1
WIS 15 +2
CHA 10 +0

HP : 123
INI : +5
MOVEMENT : 30 Feet

BAB : +11/+6/+1
MELEE (MAIN) : +16/+11/+6 [1D8+5, 18-20, x2, Deadly, Phase Locking]
MELEE (OFFH) : +16/+11 [1D6+5, 18-20, x2, Deadly, Planar]
RANGE :

NOTES
+4 To Hit & Damage vs Evil outsiders
Double Threat Range vs Evil Outsiders
+2 To Hit & Damage vs Shapechangers

CMB : +19
CMD : 35

AC : 27 [10 + 12 Armor + 2 Deflection + 3 DEX] **+3 Barkskin
FLAT : 24 [10 + 12 Armor + 2 Deflection] **+3 Barkskin
TOUCH : 15 [10 + 2 Deflection + 3 DEX]

FOR : +16
REF : +12
WIL : +10

RACIAL TRAITS
- Medium Sized
- Normal Speed
- Skilled
- Bonus Feat

RANGER TRAITS
- Favored Ennemy (Outsider(Evil)+2)
- Track
- Wild Empathy
- Combat Style Feat (Two-Weapon Fighting)
- Bonus Feat (Endurance)
- Favored Terrain (Urban)
- Hunter's Bond (Companions)
- Favored Ennemy (Shapechangers+2, Outsider(Evil)+4)
- Combat Style Feat (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
- Woodland Stride
- Swift Tracker
- Favored Terrain (Underground)

INQUISITOR TRAITS
- Domain (Leadership)
- Judgement (2/Day)
- Monster Lore
- Orisons
- Stern Gaze
- Cunning Initiative
- Detect Alignement
- Track
- Solo Tactics
- Teamwork Feat (Stealth Synergy)
- Bane (8 Rounds/Day)
- Discern Lies

SKILLS
*Diplomacy 16 13+3+0
*Handle Animal 18 13+3+2
Knowledge (Nobility) 14 11+0+3
*Knowledge (Planes) 18 13+3+3
Linguistics 3 2+0+1
*Perception 18 13+3+2
*Sense Motive 20 13+3+2+2
*Spellcraft 16 13+3+0
*Survival 18 13+3+2 **+6 to follow tracks

LANGUAGES
- Common
- Infernal
- Abyssal

FEATS
- Endurance
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Katana)
- Weapon Focus (Katana)
- Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Wakizashi)
- Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
- Insightful Gaze
- Slayer's Knack (Outsider(Evil))
- Extra Bane
- Double Bane
- Stealth Synergy
- Two-Weapon Fighting
- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES
- Detect Chaos (At Will)
- Detect Law (At Will)
- Detect Good (At Will)
- Detect Evil (At Will)
- Discern Lies (5 Rounds/Day)

RANGER CASTER LEVEL : 5

RANGER SPELLS PER DAY
2/2

SPELLS PREPARED
LVL 1 : Reists Energy, Lead Blades
LVL 2 : Barkskin, Hunter's Eye

INQUISITOR CASTER LEVEL : 5

INQUISITOR SPELLS PER DAY
5/3

INQUISITOR SPELLS KNOWN
LVL 0 : Bleed, Brand, Create Water, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light
LVL 1 : Bless, Litany of Sloth, Disguise Self, Remove Fear
LVL 2 : Invisibility, Align Weapon, Flames of the Faithful

GEAR

Weapons
+1 Phase Locking Cold Iron Katana
+1 Planar Mithral Wakizashi
+1 Alchemical Silver Light Flail

Armor
+4 Glamered Mithral O-Yoroi
[+12 Armor, +4 Max Dex, -3 Check Penalty, 22.5lbs]
Cloak of Resistance +2

Others
Belt of Physical Perfection +2 [STR/DEX/CON]
Quickrunner's Shirt
Ring of Protection +2
Featherstep Slippers
Headband of Superior Intellect +2
Handy Haversack
Golembane Scarab

Sovereign Court

CKorfmann wrote:
Are you allowed 3pp? If you are interested in going the Finesse route, there is a new feat from Paths of War called Deadly Agility that adds DEX to damage instead of STR. The main difference being that damage does not increase by 1/2 for two-handed weapons, but it also does not decrease by 1/2 for off-hand weapons. All the better for TWF.

So basically the 3pp feat is slashing grace without

1. Weapon limitations
2. A need to dip into swashbuckler/daring cavalier to get dex to hit & damage with anything sans dueling sword
3. A need to use sawtoothed sabres to get the dex damage with both hands.
4. A need to take Double Slice for full dex to damage for off-hand (though that's arguably up for debate - it seems to be the general consensus for slashing grace)

Sure - totally balanced with paizo stuff. I don't see why any GM would ban 3pp :P.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
CKorfmann wrote:
Are you allowed 3pp? If you are interested in going the Finesse route, there is a new feat from Paths of War called Deadly Agility that adds DEX to damage instead of STR. The main difference being that damage does not increase by 1/2 for two-handed weapons, but it also does not decrease by 1/2 for off-hand weapons. All the better for TWF.

So basically the 3pp feat is slashing grace without

1. Weapon limitations
2. A need to dip into swashbuckler/daring cavalier to get dex to hit & damage with anything sans dueling sword
3. A need to use sawtoothed sabres to get the dex damage with both hands.
4. A need to take Double Slice for full dex to damage for off-hand (though that's arguably up for debate - it seems to be the general consensus for slashing grace)

Sure - totally balanced with paizo stuff. I don't see why any GM would ban 3pp :P.

Alternatively, you could see it as Slashing Grace being woefully underpowered, poorly written and needlessly restrictive :P

Sovereign Court

johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Alternatively, you could see it as Slashing Grace being woefully underpowered, poorly written and needlessly restrictive :P

I've run the #s. Even as it stands dex to damage TWF builds are probably better than strength TWF builds, and that's with all of the extra costs in feats and a level dip. (The 3pp version doesn't even really cost a feat considering it removes the need for double slice - a standard TWF feat.)

In each case, you are effectively making your stat buy much higher as it removes the need for strength. And vs a strength TWF build, all of your secondaries from dex will be far higher.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:

People have mentioned the ranger/slayer because they can ignore dex req. (though then their ac is weak if they go too low)

I'd say dip 1 level in swashbuckler & go straight fighter to ignore strength entirely.

With -
Swashbuckler's Finesse (not a feat - swashbuckler level 1 feature)
Prof:Sawtoothed Sabres
WF:Sawtoothed Sabres
Slashing Grace
TWF

You are suddenly using dex to hit & for damage. Sure - it's kinda feat intensive (not that using sawtoothed sabres Prof or WF are bad anyway) but fighters have feats to burn anyway. (And you get panache for that 1 level of swashbuckler too.)

Your damage will be every bit as good if not better than a strength based TWF once you hit level 3 (when the above comes online) plus your dex/initiative/reflex/AC(especially touch) will all be WAY higher.

And while a strength TWF still needs a dex of 14ish (even ranger/slayer to keep AC decent) a dex based TWF can have a strength of 8 and it doesn't matter sans encumbrance. Plus, a fighter can eventually get tons of extra dex to AC with armor training.

Yes, but what about your damage boosting feats like power attack?

Without an ounce of strength, you cannot get power attack. And piranha strike only works with light weapons, so that means it doesn't work with slashing grace (or even rapiers)

I know that power attack is not the only way and might not be the best damage boosting choice... but I am asking what is YOUR method? Because without SOMETHING, you are just going to be weak in comparison to a strength build.

Sovereign Court

lemeres wrote:

Yes, but what about your damage boosting feats like power attack?

Without an ounce of strength, you cannot get power attack. And piranha strike only works with light weapons, so that means it doesn't work with slashing grace (or even rapiers)

I know that power attack is not the only way and might not be the best damage boosting choice... but I am asking what is YOUR method? Because without SOMETHING, you are just going to be weak in comparison to a strength build.

Power attack is pretty weak for a TWF build for all but the easiest to hit targets. Past the lowest few levels (power attack doesn't actually scale as the bonus is numerical and the penalty is %) it's not that hot for anyone but two-handers.

Grand Lodge

Almost related... what are the best two weapons for a flurrying TWF brawler?

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