Goblinworks Blog: Closing the Gap to Early Enrollment


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

See my edit above. I just missed your timing. :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Shaibes wrote:
You don't even need to be careful--you're not going to lose anything meaningful, certainly not anything that can't be replaced. Some may view this as a positive, but I see it as a negative.

When the system is fully implemented, sometime between EE and OE, there will be the possibility to lose your settlement.

What drew me to PFO was the idea of persistent, territorial warfare. Using PVP to harass individual players is meaningless to me. Conflict should involve groups of players, and success measured over weeks or months, not single battles involving miniscule amounts of harvested or crafted loot.

I want civilizations colliding, not anarchic squabbling over scraps.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
The Reputation Recovery calculation is another matter entirely

That is just further opinion (of my own). I was not suggesting that you are accepting or against that new calculation.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
Using PVP to harass individual players is meaningless to me.

(I realize you're probably using a looser definition of the word "harass" than I am, and I don't mean to suggest you're okay with "harassment")

Using PvP to harass individuals is less than meaningless to me, it's an affront, and I truly hope PFO largely avoids the problem.

However, the threat of Bandits is - and always has been - one of the things that I've very much looked forward to in PFO. As I've said on a number of occasions, guarding Caravans of valuable cargo on long trips is very much the kind of thing I want to do, and it'll be pretty boring if I don't get the chance to kill some Bandits now and then :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Bringslite wrote:
I was not suggesting that you are accepting or against that new calculation.

Didn't think you were, and neither am I :)

I honestly don't know if the new numbers will work out, and nothing has occurred to me about it that makes me want to offer an opinion other than to say, at first blush, it seems a little quick.

Goblin Squad Member

So let's look at this from another angle. Not suggesting that rep recovery is alright, IMO, as it now (soon to be) stands. This is just exactly (I think) what Nihimon and probably others are pointing out.

If the rep loss calc were in for attacking parties of players AND players move about in almost any size party above 2, the penalties to attack and kill them become suddenly signifigant.

Now I am not saying that current levels of population make that very reasonable. I am also not saying that it will be easy even with larger population, down the road. Nor am I saying that it is as fun to group for gathering (for all players) as it is to go out alone and "get your gather on".

It does seem to be one of the ways GW wants us to approach things if we want maximum possiblitity of safety from killers.

This is dependent on that shared rep penalty being in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bandits attacking individual gatherers is just harassment. Its a nuisance with no significant gain or loss for either side. The gatherer loses a half hour or an hour's worth of his time, and the bandit gains some crappy rocks he could have picked up for himself off the ground.

Bandits attacking a caravan is a whole different matter. If its a caravan full of crafted trade goods, then its a significant gain or loss. If its a caravan shipment of bulk goods that one settlement needs to maintain its structures, then its likely even more important as a strategic piece of organized warfare.

I would much rather have a well-designed caravan system than all this messing around with SADs and player looting.

The difference is that the raiders vs caravan situation is a group effort, tied into a big picture territory control game.
Raiding a caravan should be more like capturing a PoI than mugging some dude in the forest.

Goblin Squad Member

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I will note that there was a significant change: Reputation losses are now assigned on the death of the victim, not just the second hit. So the chance of accidentally hitting someone and taking a rep loss goes way down. Players who have no concept of fire discipline, who spam AOEs or fire without seeing their target will still manage to kill friends and take rep losses, I'm sure.

In response to Gaskon: the current rep losses and recovery might make developing any SAD system a waste of resources. Just gank the target and take his stuff - you'll be back to normal in less than 3 hours.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Attacking solo gatherers is NOT harassment. It is integral to the game design because it creates challenges for gatherers best solved by meaningful human interaction.

You should always FEAR the wilderness. The true monsters claim it as theirs.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

I will note that there was a significant change: Reputation losses are now assigned on the death of the victim, not just the second hit. So the chance of accidentally hitting someone and taking a rep loss goes way down. Players who have no concept of fire discipline, who spam AOEs or fire without seeing their target will still manage to kill friends and take rep losses, I'm sure.

In response to Gaskon: the current rep losses and recovery might make developing any SAD system a waste of resources. Just gank the target and take his stuff - you'll be back to normal in less than 3 hours.

Exactly. In the grand scheme, player groups random (meaning who they see, not a reference to reason) killing 1 player or 2 is not terrible. I know that it won't break my spirit if it happens to me.

For the general individual, it is what seperates those that play and pay to play games with this kind of PVP and those that look for other games. To those people it is a big deal when it happens to them. If it happens too often, because the penalties are so low, it is usually a deal breaker.

I believe that there are many around here that would not abuse these new mechanics. I also believe that there are some that would, whether thay are here yet or not.

Goblin Squad Member

Which makes me think of .... Sneak. Do it hide us on the mini map now? Becaus if it dont it makes it very very difficult to both sneak up on as well as hiding from ...

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:
You should always FEAR the wilderness. The true monsters claim it as theirs.

ALL YOUR WILDERNESS BELONGS TO ME! Fear me, for I am the monster from Zombie Kitten Mountain!

Goblin Squad Member

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Schedim wrote:
Becaus if it dont...

Once it does, it's going to be hard to convince myself to go anywhere un-sneaking, which is how I play Fallout and Skyrim, anyway :-).

Goblin Squad Member

Have you tried sneak? Skyrim sneak goes in express in comparison ... This is painfully slow, as it should be!

Goblin Squad Member

Schedim wrote:
Which makes me think of .... Sneak. Do it hide us on the mini map now? Becaus if it dont it makes it very very difficult to both sneak up on as well as hiding from ...

Not yet. I recall a Dev chiming in that it was possible and that it could be done in a way that 3rd party hacks can't over ride it.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Attacking solo gatherers is NOT harassment. It is integral to the game design because it creates challenges for gatherers best solved by meaningful human interaction.

You should always FEAR the wilderness. The true monsters claim it as theirs.

Harassing a solo gatherer character is not sufficient to constitute harassment of the player.

It is unfortunate that a word which refers to a tactical attack strategy is autonymous with a word that refers to griefing.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Attacking solo gatherers is NOT harassment. It is integral to the game design because it creates challenges for gatherers best solved by meaningful human interaction.

Unless the resource distribution and gathering modes change from what they are currently, it really won't be challenging or involve meaningful human interaction.

The best method is going to be gather in only the gear you can thread, and return often to drop off your proceeds in the bank.

The occasional loss to bandits will be just a time sink, not a meaningful challenge. You'll run if you can, give up and die if you can't.
Harassment = a minor nuisance that can be ignored by the victim, and doesn't provide any significant gain to the perpetrator.

Right now, nobody is going to be forming large groups of guards and organized harvesting trips, when naked solo gathering is so much more effective.

Gushers and PoIs producing bulk resources might lead to meaningful human interaction. Picking up rocks off the side of the road won't.

Goblin Squad Member

Schedim wrote:
This is painfully slow...

There's pain, and pain. I may not have a lot of time to play, but when I do, I'll try to accomplish not dying first, and everything else second; your mileage may vary.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Attacking solo gatherers is NOT harassment. It is integral to the game design because it creates challenges for gatherers best solved by meaningful human interaction.

You should always FEAR the wilderness. The true monsters claim it as theirs.

Sorry to be flippant, but what challenge? The murderer gets some rocks and berries, and the gatherer magically springs from the grave a few seconds later. Neither gains nor loses much from the interaction. As a gatherer, I would find that mildly annoying but not very fearsome or challenging. Maybe it's different for the murderer.


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Ryan Dancey wrote:
Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:


I don't agree with the decision to not higher prioritize broken features, I think it is bad development policy.

I really don't understand this comment.

What "broken feature" are we not addressing in the blog? There's nothing in our open bug list that I would classify as a "broken feature" that isn't immediately scheduled to be addressed.

Ryan. what I meant was - I do not think EE should be launched until existing features that are broken, are fixed.

Examples:
- Tower Capture.
- Reactive Feats mirroring damage.

I think it is bad development policy to release features that are broken, and then push forward for a month or more into development and release of more features, and then to push forward into a more public launch, without yet having fixed said features.

I know you mentioned them in the blog post as being high priority. I'm just stating my opinion as a software developer that I think it would be more appropriate to stop and fix what is supposed to be working before steaming on ahead.

Otherwise, developers get in the habit of subconsciously thinking it is OK to push buggy code or features.

Just my 2 cents, I know that ultimately there are other concerns. Thank you

Goblin Squad Member

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Shaibes wrote:
Neither gains nor loses much from the interaction.

I'm hoping to role-play and avoid min-max, thus I--and perhaps no one else--feel dying is, in itself, losing something valuable and material.


Quote:
Sorry to be flippant, but what challenge? The murderer gets some rocks and berries, and the gatherer magically springs from the grave a few seconds later. Neither gains nor loses much from the interaction. As a gatherer, I would find that mildly annoying but not very fearsome or challenging. Maybe it's different for the murderer.

If somebody is ganking you every time you left the settlement to go collect resources so you could : craft, sell things, etc. - it will be difficult to craft things or sell stuff for money because you would have no resources to make use of.

Is it just me, or isn't that obvious?

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Quote:
Sorry to be flippant, but what challenge? The murderer gets some rocks and berries, and the gatherer magically springs from the grave a few seconds later. Neither gains nor loses much from the interaction. As a gatherer, I would find that mildly annoying but not very fearsome or challenging. Maybe it's different for the murderer.

If somebody is ganking you every time you left the settlement to go collect resources so you could : craft, sell things, etc. - it will be difficult to craft things or sell stuff for money because you would have no resources to make use of.

Is it just me, or isn't that obvious?

If someone is ganking me every time I set foot outside my settlement, I'll go play a different game, or maybe work in the garden or go hiking in the real woods. I spend my time and money on things I enjoy doing.

EDIT: Your reply made me laugh, though, because it reminded me of the mugging queue scene from Steve Martin's LA Story: "Hi, my name is Bob. I'll be your robber."


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Quote:
If someone is ganking me every time I set foot outside my settlement, I'll go play a different game, or maybe work in the garden or go hiking in the real woods. I spend my time and money on things I enjoy doing.

In EVE we would say HTFU, heheh. But I get ya - being ganked all the time would get old. But then that is something that would lead to players teaming up and watching out for each other, which essentially was Ryan's entire point.

If you don't make an environment with real consequences and choices, you will just end up with a MMORPG full of solo players that don't interact with each other, because they don't need to.

I guess whether or not that level of ganking would actually occur though remains to be seen.

Goblin Squad Member

Even in Darkfall and other games with no restrictions on PVP, naked solo gathering was the most efficient means of getting resources.

Until a game drastically changes how resources are produced to something other than: "find a node, spend 10 seconds standing near it, move on", banditry will be just a nuisance.

EVE players, isn't this true in EVE as well? Mostly solo gatherers that run when attacked, or gather only in protected areas?

If banditry gets so bad you need to use military to protect your gatherers, you're usually still better off hunting down the bandits to keep them busy, instead of escorting individual gatherers.

Now, if resources came from specific, persistent locations, like a mine, then you could dedicate military to guarding that single location, but as long as they come from scattered small nodes, then scoop and scoot will be the most efficient gathering mode.

Goblin Squad Member

I think that there may be gathering expeditions, in which a group including (in the future) transport, travels to a distant hex en-masse in order to acquire uncommon components as part of a trading expedition. Those will be more likely to attract a bandit than a lone gatherer 1 or two hexes from home.

One thing the lone gatherer will risk is the loss of time (especially if they went several hexes away for a specific resource), and if they are careful stewards of a resource, they will have a loss of regeneration capacity, as well.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bandits aren't the only ones who will have an interest in killing lone harvesters. The discussed resource replenishment mechanic implies that many groups might have a valid interest in resource management, which involves killing characters who will not be dissuaded by lesser methods of discouragement.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
Even in Darkfall and other games with no restrictions on PVP, naked solo gathering was the most efficient means of getting resources.

This has been on my mind often. I think that if there will be a difference in PfO, it will be because more gatherers are playing PfO than play/played Darkfall when I did. We tried to get allies to participate in gathering. It was usually laughed at. Much more fun to kill and take what you need for the pop in that game. Will there be a difference in PfO? I don't know. Hope so.

Despite that mentality and occasional losses, it was pretty efficient to gather alone. I also did notice that gatherers being ganked seemed more rare when there was a group of us in the same area.

Lots of things about that are/will be? different in PfO. You can see people on the mini map. There might be "group" sized penalties for killing. There are penalties. Atmosphere: both community and physical. This seems(so far) to be a better community. In Darkfall, you could hear footsteps, running, gathering, fighting from a distance.

All (so far) a bit different here. I am curious how that all will affect things.

Goblin Squad Member

Reputation should not be universal. It should be tied to factions (NPC or player made) Killing enemies of a faction (those with low faction rep) should increase your reputation even though you are performing a hostile action. Similarly it should lower your rep with any factions that character was friendly with.

This way there is a distinction between attacking enemies and just random PKing. Some just want to burn the world down, some want the thrill of PvP but don't want to be "bad guys". This would enable such playstyles.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:


Now, if resources came from specific, persistent locations, like a mine, then you could dedicate military to guarding that single location, but as long as they come from scattered small nodes, then scoop and scoot will be the most efficient gathering mode.

But this is the plan with Outposts and PoI's. There is a quote I believe that states that the bulk of resources will actually be harvested through these Outposts and POI's, and that the nodes (including gushers) will constitute the smaller part. Something like 70/30%? Not sure about the numbers.

Though I am not actually sure if this was just for the *bulk* resources, or for *all* resource types.

In any case, destroying a Settlements Mining PoI will be a much more interesting event then picking of lone harvesters, with more impact.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Gaskon wrote:
it really won't be challenging or involve meaningful human interaction.
Quote:
Right now, nobody is going to be forming large groups of guards and organized harvesting trips, when naked solo gathering is so much more effective.

You see how feeling at risk whenever you are in the wilderness is exactly what drives groups and organized harvesting, right?

Goblin Squad Member

Naked gathering .... Hmmm I see the point and I dont like it ... Here it is a real plot hole to fill IMO.

Goblin Squad Member

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Esequiel Garcia wrote:

Hey Guys,

I know I might get reprimanded for defending the game, but still I feel I must. I cannot speak to the design or programing aspects, in a team you play your role to the best of your abilities. I can speak about the graphics. There are very cool things in the pipe I cannot talk about. Cool Stuff. Any who about the graphics. I have worked the past 10 years, this month being my anniversary in the game industry after studying game art for 4 years. I have worked on small to the biggest games to date, so I know what both sides of the spectrum are like. I have worked on psp, ps2, ps3, and now Ps4 games. Also the same generation xbox ones and pc. We are doing very exciting things graphics wise. I know what the tech was like in 04. trust me, i pushed for our company at the time to go into ps3 development in 06. This meant normal maps. This was in 06. For a small company I helped pioneer one of the first games that hit the ps3. note I said normal maps, true RGB maps that make the light calculate as its a higher resolution model. For a small company at the time I was like, damn we are so behind whats out there. what I would come to learn to realize is that small companies, can actually push the envelope in greater ways than a 200m game can because there is less politics and middle management. I wont mention names, but one of the biggest budget games an all time classic that came out in 08 I believe did not use this tech they were far behind the curve, it was a hundred million dollar game. in fact the small company i made the push at was ahead of them. Soooo on pathfinder online we are using the highest poly characters we can knowing there will be hundreds on screen. they use true normal maps. they also do all the color tinting stuff that is also somewhat recent. I don't know the exact date but every time I hear, game looks anything less than 08, I chuckle. Because what you are thinking of is fond memories of those games. But feel what you want. As I mentioned cool stuff is in the pipe, and we can hit...

Thank you for this information, Esequiel. I may not post much, but know that I'm behind this game and its team. I will wait what is necessary for this game to shine.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
These will be available at the start of Early Enrollment. We are still finalizing the exact contents of the packs and will blog more about this soon.

Woo hoo!

Will class packs also be in the game? Or just starter packs?


<Kabal> Dan Repperger wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
These will be available at the start of Early Enrollment. We are still finalizing the exact contents of the packs and will blog more about this soon.

Woo hoo!

Will class packs also be in the game? Or just starter packs?

That's good to hear!

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
I will note that there was a significant change: Reputation losses are now assigned on the death of the victim, not just the second hit.

Are you seeing this stated explicitly somewhere? Or are you interpreting it (reasonably) from the way the new formula is labeled (i.e. "For killing a character")?

Paizo Employee CEO

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Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:

Ryan. what I meant was - I do not think EE should be launched until existing features that are broken, are fixed.

Examples:
- Tower Capture.
- Reactive Feats mirroring damage.

My understanding is that those things will be fixed before EE launches. When Ryan makes a blog post like he did today, it doesn't include EVERYTHING that we plan to do before EE starts. It is just a roadmap. An idea of what we are thinking. Not a exhaustive list. We have quite a lengthy list of bugged features that aren't working right that we plan to fix before EE.

-Lisa

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Urman wrote:
I will note that there was a significant change: Reputation losses are now assigned on the death of the victim, not just the second hit.
Are you seeing this stated explicitly somewhere? Or are you interpreting it (reasonably) from the way the new formula is labeled (i.e. "For killing a character")?

Valid point - they may have been using shorthand. In the past, though, they were very clear that rep loss occured on the second attack. Since they didn't specify it here, I've guessed that they've dispensed with that, and will only assign rep losses to a killing.

Goblin Squad Member

So PvP only, corpse looting, corpse runs, esoteric level advancement, I'm not sure if I have any interest left to lose in this game. I wish GW the best of luck, I really do hope they succeed. Granted I consider multiplayer solitaire fairly boring, but the game mechanics left behind the way I'd like to play a while ago.

I've stopped telling others how disappointed I am with the game and started simply lending out my second account for others to try. I hope I can at least replace my wife and I for your player base.

Quite a bit of vitriol here. But I suspect it's just passionate fans...

Cheers.

Goblin Squad Member

I wanted to drop by and offer an enthusiastic thank you for the openess and honesty. When I was waiting for Darkfall and they went ahead with launch without addressing many of the features that you included on the list as must haves, which are common sense additions for a viable game and released Darkfall despie urging from the community, it broke my trust in them. Goblinworks taking the other road and being totally open about it is a breath of fresh air from what I've seen from sandbox developers in the past.

Again, thank you for being open and honest about pushing back the dates. Maybe it's just the nature of the commitment you have to crowdforging and what that means that makes things like this happen, but I know it's also because Goblinworks is a very ethical company, with great people that work very hard to bring us the best sandbox gaming experience in a transparent way. Keep on doing what you're doing!

CEO, Goblinworks

There has been no change to Rep mechanics. The loss is on the 2nd hit.

Not all the Urgent and Important things will be complete by the time Early Enrollment begins. The more, the better. For those not finished, we will stream them in a fast as we can.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
There has been no change to Rep mechanics. The loss is on the 2nd hit.

Thanks for clearing that up, Ryan.

Goblin Squad Member

Loke_ wrote:

So PvP only, corpse looting, corpse runs, esoteric level advancement, I'm not sure if I have any interest left to lose in this game. I wish GW the best of luck, I really do hope they succeed. Granted I consider multiplayer solitaire fairly boring, but the game mechanics left behind the way I'd like to play a while ago.

I've stopped telling others how disappointed I am with the game and started simply lending out my second account for others to try. I hope I can at least replace my wife and I for your player base.

Quite a bit of vitriol here. But I suspect it's just passionate fans...

Cheers.

This is definitely one of the oddest critiques I've read. Pathfinder Online has been advertised as a PvP game since day one with all of those things you "don't like" fully advertised in the Kickstarter.

I think it's great that you are offering your accounts for other people to try but I still don't understand your outlook? I think the only one you can blame is yourself.

Goblin Squad Member

Alright, so if there is indeed reputation loss on the 2nd hit and beyond, can we get the exact math on that? Or is it what was already posted?

If it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a 7500 Rep guy, and I am taking 650 reputation per hit + kill that is .. 3900 rep loss, with 250 regen that is 15 hours roughly recovery time for 1 kill.

At -7500 to -2500 that is just 20 hours of game time. The average person playing say 21 hours per week (which is the MMO national average)...It needs to be double that at the very least, and needs to have something in place so I can't just there for 2 days gaining my rep.

I am almost thinking, if reputation is going to be gained back so fast, there needs to be something limiting here. Perhaps if you can't enter town, you automatically lose all T2/T3 training, until your town can support you again. That might not even make sense to be honest, but there needs to be something else here.

Going on a murdering spree, and just sitting there a few days, and bam back to playing full throttle isn't quite on par with it being meaningful to kill someone.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think this is the rate that we'll see in EE. I think this is a chance for them to open up PvP and see more action and get some data on how PvP actually works, without having people unable to play their characters for doing what GW needs done.

Once PvP itself is functioning well, then they can slowly tighten up on *when* PvP should be happening.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

There has been no change to Rep mechanics. The loss is on the 2nd hit.

Not all the Urgent and Important things will be complete by the time Early Enrollment begins. The more, the better. For those not finished, we will stream them in a fast as we can.

The loss is on the second hit (as was before), and more if the character dies (within 30 seconds) will be added. Is this not the way it is / was?

@ Chealte,

Hits after the second (ie. 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc) never added more Rep loss.

But, the questions are valid since Ryan's post above is a bit vague. What is not vague is the Dev Blog:

Dev Blog wrote:

Killing a character with Reputation 7,500 (max) will inflict 649.5 points of Reputation damage.

Reputation Recovery: Base rate 200/hour. Bonus regen = 10/hour (after 1st) to a max total of 250/hour.

Again, I would suggest that this Rep Loss be modified upwards within the city limits of the starter towns (Thornkeep, Ft. Inevitable, River Watch). This would be similar to the speed limit in a school zone or construction area, where the speed is reduced dramatically and the fines are doubled.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
...650 reputation per hit...

I interpreted it as 650 total Reputation loss for the kill, with some points being removed beginning at the second hit, incrementing if one continues to hit and then kill. It appears we might still need further clarification.

Goblin Squad Member

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If a character is at -7500 it will still take over 20 hours of game time to recover to -2499, and regain access to training.

Not everyone plays 4 hours a day, but even then it would take over 5 days to recover. Even if you can log in and just stand there for hours, not everyone will do that either.

What Goblin Works should consider doing in the short term is getting the Bounty Hunting system or creating a Kill Mail system in place. This will allow for victims to get back at their attackers, and provide content for those who wish to do that kind of work.

I myself would love to take on bounties, they will likely pay well and be fun to execute. I would wear it like a badge of honor to have multiple bounties on my own head. What fun that will be playing cat and mouse.

Bottom line is, PFO is not sustainable without copious amounts of PvP. Crafters will soon find they have nothing to craft without the near constant 25% loss on death. Merchants won't be able to make coin worth their time if resources flow into the economic system without limitations. A healthy server population needs more consumers than producers. If that is in the reverse, than GW has to take the limitations off or reduce them for those willing to be the consumers or the whole system fails.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:

Alright, so if there is indeed reputation loss on the 2nd hit and beyond, can we get the exact math on that? Or is it what was already posted?

If it takes me 5-6 hits to kill a 7500 Rep guy, and I am taking 650 reputation per hit + kill that is .. 3900 rep loss, with 250 regen that is 15 hours roughly recovery time for 1 kill.

Ryan Dancey wrote:
There has been no change to Rep mechanics.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
The loss is on the second hit (as was before), and more if the character dies (within 30 seconds) will be added. Is this not the way it is / was?

The loss on death only occurs if you never hit the character a 2nd time.

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