non evil or good aligned drow cities in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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I was wondering if anyone knew of non evil or good aligned drow cities or settlements in Golarion. Any help would be appreciated.


There aren't any. In Golarion, drow are evil, period.

Drow in Golarion.


Dude you got like 5 threads all the same on this subject.


I think one of the adventures reveals that elves that go evil enough turn into drow. So any drow that go good would turn back into elves.

Liberty's Edge

Full cities? I don't think there are any of those. I would suggest asking James Jacobs on this thread THREAD. He is the creative director and has had a part in building up the world since the beginning.


My tablet freaked out


What adventure?


SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
I think one of the adventures reveals that elves that go evil enough turn into drow. So any drow that go good would turn back into elves.

While the first is true (but extremely rare - and you have to be a downright dastardly, evilest-of-the-evil elf to trigger it, just being a regular old evil-aligned elf isn't enough), there is no statement that the second is (unless you can provide a source?). From all information given thus far, the transformation is one-way and irreversible (save high-level magic), regardless of the eventual morality of the drow individual.

Eradas Penarion wrote:
What adventure?

Second Darkness.


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My understanding (just from the messageboards): The original drow were all evil, due to the elves who encountered the emanations of Rovagug (spelling?) and the darklands. In addition, evil and depraved elves *can* spontaneously become drow but it might also require an outside catalyst (like the emanations of the darklands in the original transformation). So all "first-generation" drow are evil.

Since being a drow is inherited, later generations of drow may not be evil (and may even be good) - there was a neutral drow in one of the Second Darkness adventures. The transformation is one way - drow who become good do not become elves. Since Second Darkness was the introduction of drow, Paizo wanted to stress that most drow are evil.

Relevant quote on good-aligned drow (somewhat old - from 2012):



The reason we did that "Are there any good drow?" sidebar was because we were deliberately trying to "reset" drow as bad guys and wanted folks to be assured that we weren't going to throw in a dual-scimitar wielding ranger into the mix.

Now that we're about a dozen adventure paths in, if we were to do a drow adventure today, we wouldn't do this sidebar at all.

There CAN be good drow. They're just very very very rare. To the extent that in 5 years of monthly products, we've not yet had one show up in print.

On the transformation being one-way:

Betwixt wrote:

Ah OK. I think my main mistake was in misremembering just HOW mad Hialin was in Second Darkness, upon reading it again he is a LOT of corrupt than I gave him credit for.

I was also wondering, is it possible for a drow to transform back into an elf by being extraordinarily good/pure? If so I guess this would be significantly more rare though since I doubt there are as many good/neutral drow as there are evil/neutral elves...

Nope; the transformation is a one-way trip. A good drow stays a drow.

Liberty's Edge

So the above seems to be a definitive answer from a creative standpoint of world-building that was done by Paizo. There would be no cites of good ones. There may be the extremely rare exile that is good, but they shouldn't be found anywhere near normal drow.


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Thanks
This helps allot.


All that said, if you want to say 'screw canon, I want a good drow city', then by all means, feel free to create one.


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Just don't expect much support, the twin scimitars of sameyness meant even whispering the words "good" and "drow" activates rage-faces and berserk buttons.

I like dark elves because they look cute, but I get the hate.


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Well that is kind of silly, like saying you hate all Vampire Literature because you didn't like how Edward Cullen was a moody teenager and yet still a vampire.


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To me there something more Heroic and interesting about some one who is surrounded by evil but decides to do the good and right thing despite those around them pushing them to be evil too. Lets face it evil is easy and the rewards for being bad are quick, while the rewards for doing the right thing often are long in coming.
And if human elves , Dwarves etc can be evil, why not have Drow, Orcs and Goblins be good?


On the Other Hand wrote:
Well that is kind of silly, like saying you hate all Vampire Literature because you didn't like how Edward Cullen was a moody teenager and yet still a vampire.

Might be silly, but you know it happens. And be fair, it's like saying all vampire romance is terrible because of Anne Rice, Twilight, and the like than saying vampires in general are "teh suck". In a larger sense it's a symptom of the larger problem that everybody wants to be special (that's why we PLAY, we get enough of being part of the faceless masses IRL) but if you are a special snowflake like everybody else you deserve scorn for being special. It's the kind of zen riddle of ur-hipsterism that we hate because we love because we hate.

Or something.

Anyway, I mostly like drow because I think they're pretty. I play a drow noble who was raised by a dragon. I am shallow and BadWrongFun and clearly have no shame whatsoever.

Yet I still seem to be having fun, so I got that going for me.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.


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If you're going by Golarion lore, then non-evil drow are anomalies - they certainly exist, but they're rare.

In part because drow society actively kills them, and the Winter Council of Kyonin would do the same (the Winter Council views all drow as "kill on sight and cover it up").

Nex or Kaer Maga - both "anything goes" sorts of places - seem to me to be good origin places for a non-evil drow. Both places are home to things way, way weirder and spookier than drow.

(I love that Nex has an invisible stalker on the government council. I don't think a drow would even get a second look in Nex.)


Soluzar wrote:
The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.

Question, for everyone who feels this way: How many drow characters have you played as or with? You personally, not just heard about?

A lot of prejudice is picked up from other people's prejudice.


boring7 wrote:
Soluzar wrote:
The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.

Question, for everyone who feels this way: How many drow characters have you played as or with? You personally, not just heard about?

A lot of prejudice is picked up from other people's prejudice.

When I have played drow I have played them evil. I have played 3, always clerics - My last was heretical anti Lloth type - she liked to corrupt other drow and convert them to worshiping Tharizdun.

In my experience most people play a good drow for the following reasons.

Cheese-Lording: Looking for the maximum optimisation possible -wanting to have the best mechanical character in the game and screw all the other players fun.

Special Little Snowflaking: This character is designed to monopolise all the GMs time with Angst and Emo "role playing" ohh how I suffer... pay attention to me GM. Its another screw all the other players fun character.

Bondage Fetish wish fulfillment: All the other players get hear in detail the drow players fetishes - screw everybody's fun again.

So yeh when I hear somebody wanting to play a good drow... I seriously start thinking about finding another group.


When Unearthed Arcana first came out for 1st. every one promptly rolled up a drow female...And each one was for what was just described...quite correctly...as "Cheese Lording".

I too, promptly acted...dropped all drow "special abilities" up too and including the 15" movement rate for females...

And what do you know...all the drow were rerolled as normal pc's...well as normal as gamers get!

3 out of 5 gamers all had some version of Drizzt...some special snowflake huh?


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I've only been in one game where someone played a drow. He was a CN Bladesinger in a 2nd Edition planescape game before planescape had even been printed. We were playing epic-level for that matter. In a game where the adventure evolved around a fallen lesser god who would still be considered a level 29 demigod and his cohort (the players) his level 22 bladesinger (a male agnostic religiously) was at actually at the bottom of the power curve. Hell, I was only midway as a level 17 1st Edition Bard.

If I remember right (it's been several years) he was a mercenary we hired as a guide in the underdark. We just never got around to stop paying him and he just stayed with us as a result. He lacked that streak of cruelty that characterized drow, caring for nothing but money and what it could buy him.

The player tended to avoid the power tripping of most drow players. He killed quickly in a fight, but otherwise spent his time living it up in high society. We occasionally ran into prejudice against him, but we so rarely spent time on the prime material plane it wasn't an issue.


boring7 wrote:
Soluzar wrote:
The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.

Question, for everyone who feels this way: How many drow characters have you played as or with? You personally, not just heard about?

A lot of prejudice is picked up from other people's prejudice.

My first wife, back in 1999 when first taught how to play the game and what choices to take, when walked through the character building process of 2E at the time, step by step, asking "ok you can choose the, this or this" all the way along made her own choices, having never played the game or read a novel, literally made a female drow ranger dual wielding scimitars.

unreal.

in 1996 a group of my friends and I during live action role playing created a team of secondary characters (aside from our normal regular season characters) that were ALL Black elves.

the rules system had NO rules for dark elves AT ALL.

All we did was make elf characters (one was a half elf) with dark magic character class abilities (which canceled out our sense corruption ability) and dress up like Drow.

We were 100% elves in black face.

The game masters banned our characters. (there aren't any DROW in our world!…umm ere not Drow? were just black!)

MINE and the half elf actually WERE evil! (in fact so was my main line season character)

over the course of the years, Ive played a Drow cavalier, a Drow mobile fighter (awesome) and my daughter played a rather awesome Drow Skinnir.

My buddy mark played a Drow fighter/magic user/thief for a long time.

I once played a half aquatic elf with very blue skin everyone thought was a Drow, I kept getting thrown out of places.

M/y wife has played a Drow White haired witch and a half Drow rogue.

I had plans for a Drow Cybersoldier or possibly a ninja but haven't played him yet.

Oh… almost forgot my wife played a Drow inquisitor who had never seen the darklands and never knew a thing about Drow or her race being different in anyway.
She was raised by the esoteric order of the palentine eye.
If we had current rules set to build her today, she probably would have been an investigator instead.

so…yea there have been a few Drow.


when Second darkness first came out, I was playing it with players who…honest to goodness had never seen or experienced Drow, so It was all sorts of awesome sauce…. when the first saw depora run up a wall, they described it and talked about it as an elf vampire, because that's what they thought she was…. awesome stuff!


boring7 wrote:
Soluzar wrote:
The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.

Question, for everyone who feels this way: How many drow characters have you played as or with? You personally, not just heard about?

A lot of prejudice is picked up from other people's prejudice.

One in 2e ... a pacifist cleric of 'the Goddess of the Singing Waters'. Never attacked anybody, very foppish.

One Drow Drizzt-clone in 3e (literally ... he got Drizzt's official stats from somewhere and applied them verbatim).

One Drow Warlock in 4e.

Honestly, I have better things to do while gaming than critique other players' characters. Some people like cliche' characters, some people don't. Either way, it's none of my damned business; if that's what they want to do, then more power to 'em. You play your dude, I'll play mine, and we'll get along fine.


Ran an extensive homebrew campaign in 2nd edition where there was a half-drow ranger that fought with two scimitars...ugh.

Over the years I've heard tales from several gamers about their Drizzt clones.


Shadowborn wrote:

Ran an extensive homebrew campaign in 2nd edition where there was a half-drow ranger that fought with two scimitars...ugh.

Over the years I've heard tales from several gamers about their Drizzt clones.

what well known fantasy characters haven't been cloned in DnD/PF?


Pendagast wrote:
Shadowborn wrote:

Ran an extensive homebrew campaign in 2nd edition where there was a half-drow ranger that fought with two scimitars...ugh.

Over the years I've heard tales from several gamers about their Drizzt clones.

what well known fantasy characters haven't been cloned in DnD/PF?

The ones who are weird enough to make it impossible to do on any kind of practical level. Xp


The last drow I played tried to be good but evil was so danged fun. Ended up mostly neutral despite powering up Lolth and marrying her.


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The last (and only) Drow I played was a CN Male Cavalier that escaped from the society after stealing a matriarch's giant pet spider (that he now uses as his mount). It was a lot of fun.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
selunatic2397 wrote:
Dude you got like 5 threads all the same on this subject.

The last four did not give him the answers he wanted to hear.


Unlikely to find a whole city of non-Evil Drow, but some whole continents on Golarion haven't been explored, and gateways to other worlds do exist, so you never know . . . .

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

{. . .}

In my experience most people play a good drow for the following reasons.

Cheese-Lording: Looking for the maximum optimisation possible -wanting to have the best mechanical character in the game and screw all the other players fun.

What's so special about Drow for this? You don't need to make a Drow character to do that.

Here is my character concept (not statted up yet except for Ability Scores, otherwise just background and personality and a brief note about build intentions) for a good Drow that is NOT a Drizz't Do'Urden clone and NOT maximally optimized (no stats yet, but notice of Clouded Vision Oracle's Curse and implied Surface Infiltrator alternate racial trait, both of which shoot the foot of having the best(?) Darkvision available (the one Drow feature that I could see notably standing out for making the best mechanical character in the game), for one thing). I haven't read any of the Drizz't Do'Urden books, so I checked on Wikipedia to make sure I wasn't making a clone of him by accident.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:


Special Little Snowflaking: This character is designed to monopolise all the GMs time with Angst and Emo "role playing" ohh how I suffer... pay attention to me GM. Its another screw all the other players fun character.

Bondage Fetish wish fulfillment: All the other players get hear in detail the drow players fetishes - screw everybody's fun again.

So yeh when I hear somebody wanting to play a good drow... I seriously start thinking about finding another group.

As with the Cheese-Lording, if people are going to do those things with Drow characters, they are going to do that with characters of any other type, even if you restrict them to Core Only, and it won't even take them much (if any) extra time to figure out how to do it.

* * * * * * * *

With the things said (including James Jacobs quotes) above about transformation between Elf and Drow, it would still be interesting as an alternative if the truth were that something really simple but easily overlooked like a dietary supplement that one ends up eating a lot of by accident in parts of the Darklands. Search online for tellurite-resistant microorganisms and you'll find pictures of organisms that make white or tan colonies without tellurite, but turn a very definitively non-melanic black when put on medium containing tellurite. This also requires a specific type of genetic resistance element -- in contrast, the human type of tellurite resistance (which can't handle very much of it) instead gives us really bad breath and body odor when we are challenged with it (assuming quantities small enough not to just kill or cripple us). Of course, with the secrecy and stigma the Golarion surface Elves heap on Drow, such knowledge would be strictly forbidden, and anyone attempting to demonstrate such knowledge would have to figure out how to do so without winding up under 6 feet of cement.

EDIT: Not so easy to find the images online. Compare E. coli O157 on blood agar without tellurite (upper left image) to on blood agar with tellurite (scroll about half way down). In both cases, the blood agar makes everything look red, but you can still see the difference.

Who says science has to be bad for fantasy?


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My friend and I played half-drow twins who were bodyguards to another character who was a priestess of Eilistraee. My other character in that campaign was a szarkai(albino drow) warlock who I had a lot of fun playing. I had always disliked the fact that 3.5 warlocks were only given the option to have there powers come from fiendish sources, so I rewrote him to have his house experiment on him to give him powers and train him as a spy in the world above. I had his powers come from a fey source, even took feats to reflect that. Of course, as time went on he started brooding on the facts that drow were supposed to kill fey, but drow were once fey, so did that mean they wanted to kill him?
During one of their patrols he had a mental break and managed to escape, and at one point he accidentally found a portal to the fey realms and stayed there for several years, though when he came out he didn't remember much about it but his mind had become unhinged. He was fun to play, he tried to blend in as a normal elf instead of a drow but his grasp of the Common tongue wasn't perfect (e.g. saying 'gave them the pier' instead of 'gave them the slip') and he saw things in the oddest way, or that when he got flight he used to rotate as he went (helped him sense magical emanations better. Always kept a bag of sugar with him that he ate by the handful, kind a a throwback to his fey heritage. It was a lot of good times with him, but in the end I left him running the Undermountain control room to play with all the magic there. Good times.


I'm tempted to once again point out the unfortunate implications of a racial makeup that presents black skin as a sign of being genetically evil, oh dear I just did it.


Actually I had a character in mind to test my abilities as a table top gamer and it never really worked out. I needed a background story for him and wanted somewhere other than forgotten realms to have him plucked from. But this has become entertaining to say the least.


I am now playing one Drow character so far. She is a neutral good rogue who parents where lower class craft workers who where killed by a noble drow . She helped some elf captive eascape to the surface and now is an adventurer who hates Drow Nobles.


Eradas Penarion wrote:
Actually I had a character in mind to test my abilities as a table top gamer and it never really worked out. I needed a background story for him and wanted somewhere other than forgotten realms to have him plucked from. But this has become entertaining to say the least.

Eh, it's not that hard.

FR is the only setting I know of that had good-aligned drow gods. I think the dark elves of Eberron were more changeable with their alignment (generally the evil-er end of neutral, "predatory survivors" instead of "crazy-evil murderf***ers") but in Golarion it's evil radiation and murder-f***ery all the way down. "Going good" means having some reason to get away from your roots and your people, which is honestly pretty easy. There's a gold dragon running a social experiment who might add a few dark elves to that experiment. There's adventurous paladin-types who find themselves stuck with kids after having slaughtered their parents. There are evil-spawned, evil-trained lads and lasses who receive holy visions, fall in love, lose something important, or just flunk out of "evil backstabbery" school that turn to something less evil by default.

All of them are weird and incredible and implausible, but so is a plucky band of freakish humanoids with inhuman powers just happening to meet up, join together, and save the world through the power of justifiable murder.


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boring7 wrote:
I'm tempted to once again point out the unfortunate implications of a racial makeup that presents black skin as a sign of being genetically evil, oh dear I just did it.

DROW are elves.

Elves canonically adapt to their environments much in the same way humans and some other mammals do over time.

DROW are BLACK because they originate in the underdark/darklands, NOT because they are evil.

RL Humans that are black are BLACK because of their environment. (or alternatively if you are a creationist, due to inherited traits from their prospective tribe of israel)

in BOTH cases neither has anything to do with genetic evility.

So just stop it.


Pendagast wrote:

in 1996 a group of my friends and I during live action role playing created a team of secondary characters (aside from our normal regular season characters) that were ALL Black elves.

the rules system had NO rules for dark elves AT ALL.

All we did was make elf characters (one was a half elf) with dark magic character class abilities (which canceled out our sense corruption ability) and dress up like Drow.

We were 100% elves in black face.

The game masters banned our characters. (there aren't any DROW in our world!…umm ere not Drow? were just black!)

MINE and the half elf actually WERE evil! (in fact so was my main line season character)

Well, in Golarion anyway, that's pretty legit. I do seem to remember JJ saying (in the questions thread) that any elf that spent long enough in an environment "adapted" to it (So, spend 100 years in the mwangi expanse, gain same traits as local human (dark skin & hair and such), while 100 years in the great north would have the opposite effect (very pale skin & such)). Wont have much impact on a single game but it does allow more diversity than in most settings. Still, cant track down the post though... I would like to track that post down.


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williamoak wrote:
Pendagast wrote:

in 1996 a group of my friends and I during live action role playing created a team of secondary characters (aside from our normal regular season characters) that were ALL Black elves.

the rules system had NO rules for dark elves AT ALL.

All we did was make elf characters (one was a half elf) with dark magic character class abilities (which canceled out our sense corruption ability) and dress up like Drow.

We were 100% elves in black face.

The game masters banned our characters. (there aren't any DROW in our world!…umm ere not Drow? were just black!)

MINE and the half elf actually WERE evil! (in fact so was my main line season character)

Well, in Golarion anyway, that's pretty legit. I do seem to remember JJ saying (in the questions thread) that any elf that spent long enough in an environment "adapted" to it (So, spend 100 years in the mwangi expanse, gain same traits as local human (dark skin & hair and such), while 100 years in the great north would have the opposite effect (very pale skin & such)). Wont have much impact on a single game but it does allow more diversity than in most settings. Still, cant track down the post though... I would like to track that post down.

This was the most detailed:

James Jacobs wrote:

In Golarion (and by extension, Pathfinder game product canon), the first drow manifested not long after Earthfall when they went too deep underground and their own negative emotions/personality traits brushed against something down there that transformed them.

One thing to realize about elves is that they do a lesser version of this all the time. An elf that lives in a forest ends up looking and behaving similarly to the elves we see all the time in Golarion, but if that elf moves on to the desert, her nature and appearance will change, over the course of a few centuries, to match. Same with elves up in the snow, or down in the jungle. They essentially change ethnicities as the environment they live in changes. This takes a long time, and isn't likely to be something that ever affects a PC or an elf NPC in the span of a single campaign.

But it IS part of why the elves who went underground turned into drow—they were influenced by the raw chaos and evil of SOMETHING deep down in the Darklands.

And that can happen anywhere if the stars are right. Or it can happen differently. And certainly the drow know about Castrovel and Soveryan, and they may well have built their own versions of elf gates or other things in order to go there to wreak havoc.

Though it was also hinted at here.


boring7 wrote:
Soluzar wrote:
The problem with Drizzit wasn't so much with the character. Salvatore did a good job in fleshing him out. The problem was that the whole idea was literally beaten to death over and over again. The "good drow" has become a tired old cliche.
Question, for everyone who feels this way: How many drow characters have you played as or with? You personally, not just heard about?

With? A lot. Every one of them was "outcast from mah peeples", angsty and maudlin. Then again, it was high school.

There's no reason a non-evil drow must be done that way. Maybe it's been long enough that we can "take drow back". But it's a tough stereotype to overcome.


When I played DnD online (I think thats based on Eberron?) they had Daylight dwelling above ground Drow that were good guys that needed saving from the bad guy Sauhaugin.

I recall being rather shocked the first time I ran that scenario… umm wait, what? We're SAVING Drow?

There were some other scenarios like that too… I think there was one where the Giants were treating the "poor Drow" badly too… pretty funny stuff.

But then in other areas, there are Drow that attack you…so, other than DDO I have never had any experience with Eberron, however it seems in eberron, Drow are just as varied as humans when it comes to villains/vs 'regular joes'?

Oh hey…a twisted back elf that plays with spider and climbs the side of the wall like a vampire….. never mind them! they are friendly! lol


Eberron purposefully broke a lot of molds. Like their gnomes. Hoo boy.


Zhangar wrote:
(I love that Nex has an invisible stalker on the government council. I don't think a drow would even get a second look in Nex.)

Where is this info from ?


Thanael wrote:
Zhangar wrote:
(I love that Nex has an invisible stalker on the government council. I don't think a drow would even get a second look in Nex.)
Where is this info from ?

The Inner Sea World Guide's entry on Nex.

The invisible stalker is known as Master Phade, and shows up at meetings in a full body suit of leather armor. There's also a wastelands mutant on the council.

As I said, I don't think a drow would get a second look at Nex. They'd just go "oh, it's a Darklands elf, whatever" and move on.


blahpers wrote:
Eberron purposefully broke a lot of molds.

Yup. Also I think Eberron Drow were more closely associated with scorpions than spiders.


That is true, the Eberron Drow had a thing for scorpions, not spiders.


On the Other Hand wrote:
Well that is kind of silly, like saying you hate all Vampire Literature because you didn't like how Edward Cullen was a moody teenager and yet still a vampire.

Avtually, I alwasy liked Jarlaxle, and some other (Pharaun and others from the war oft the spider queen for example), lets say, not-so-much-evil-closer-to-neutral drows than Drizzt (although, I like Dizzt, just he not that interesting in the x+ book. But He was at the beginning!).

Priestesses are stright-forward evil to a "I simply want to kick them in the face" extend.

Liberty's Edge

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In a campaign that I played in for many years, we had two drow characters created before Drizzt ever came out. As they lived underground, they decided to worship an Earth goddess. Fleeing their homeland, they joined up with a group of rogues and others to take over a trade city and began trading with their relatives. The characters were neutral, with some good tendencies for one character. (The older character was lawful neutral to an extreme degree.)

I tend to hate "all evil" for mortal races. I can understand mostly evil or good for cultural reasons, especially in a world with active deities.

A drow character on Golarion, regardless of alignment, should expect to face considerable prejudice. However, if a player and GM wants to work on a story on how someone overcomes their background and defines himself or herself, more power to them. Sometimes, playing against type can be fun.

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