It's my first attempt at a guide, please be gentle but I am open to suggestions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am being told that I am now allowed to access any of the links from your introductory page. I'll drop by this thread later to see if that gets fixed, I was curious to see your builds.
ok I will get in there and fix that... grr
Links are fixed, there's a highlighting error that is a little annoying on some of the pages I'm working on that next.
Rogues....one of my favorite classes of all time. But wait you say, the rogue is underpowered and has been made irreverent by changes to the bard and other classes. Not so says I, why, just take a peek at GM-Solspiral's brand new rogues guide, and you will not be thinking such thoughts anymore, and whats that, its also FREE!
try 2nd post link
yeah initial links were to the back end which you needed authorization to use which was totally an under caffeinated moment
Criticisms-
Counterfeit Mage leaves the best parts of trapfinding intact, Quick Draw free activation wand, and allows you to be less concerned with Charisma, yes please. The fourth level talent is a loss but it remains viable for the scout archetype.
Counterfeit Mage is a terrible archetype. It has anti-synergy with itself and defeats the purpose of the Archetype.
My points are as follows:
1. It removes your bonus to finding/disabling normal traps which are most relevant early in the game and grants you a bonus against magical traps which are irrelevant later in the game since a DC 34 Perception/Disable Device is not hard to achieve by 10th level with any Rogueish character.
2. Any Rogue using UMD is going to keep trying to increase it past the +19 minimum you need to automatically activate a wand. At this point, Signature Wand's effect is meaningless. It is better to pick up Quickdraw if you really need to be flipping wands out willy nilly. The benefit Quickdraw has over the ability, is that you could also be pulling out other kinds of items.
3. Which makes the 6th level ability pointless if you're already automatically activating wands.
Alchemists can do the Poison Ivy build better.
Slayers do the Brogue better.
Keep in mind most Boon Companion builds are not that effective later in the game. The Drive By Skirmisher for instance has an 8th level mount for the rest of the game.
The Animal Companion from the Sylvan Bloodline counts as a Bloodline Arcana. It does not count as a 1st level bloodline ability. It is also not valid for Eldritch Heritage because it is a bloodline you must be a Sorcerer archetype to take.
Including Leadership is kinda pointless. 99% of games disallow it for good reason.
|
I like your guide, as this is how I've always played a rogue(with dips because that's what rogue's do) For your Sniping Trigger build there is a better option. I was overjoyed when I found it, and I use it on a ton of my Rogue builds: Ricochet Shot it gives you sneak attack without the need for range extenders, as long as they have a "wall or piece of solid terrain" within 30' of them, you don't get any negatives from distance on your attack roll, and you target touch AC. The reason why you will most likely always get sneak attack with this is you will be at your max range increment and they should be flat-footed, or at least denied their dexterity bonus.
Counterfeit Mage is a terrible archetype. It has anti-synergy with itself and defeats the purpose of the Archetype.
My points are as follows:
1. It removes your bonus to finding/disabling normal traps which are most relevant early in the game and grants you a bonus against magical traps which are irrelevant later in the game since a DC 34 Perception/Disable Device is not hard to achieve by 10th level with any Rogueish character.
2. Any Rogue using UMD is going to keep trying to increase it past the +19 minimum you need to automatically activate a wand. At this point, Signature Wand's effect is meaningless. It is better to pick up Quickdraw if you really need to be flipping wands out willy nilly. The benefit Quickdraw has over the ability, is that you could also be pulling out other kinds of items.
3. Which makes the 6th level ability pointless if you're already automatically activating wands.
Alchemists can do the Poison Ivy build better.
Slayers do the Brogue better.
Keep in mind most Boon Companion builds are not that effective later in the game. The Drive By Skirmisher for instance has an 8th level mount for the rest of the game.
The Animal Companion from the Sylvan Bloodline counts as a Bloodline Arcana. It does not count as a 1st level bloodline ability. It is also not valid for Eldritch Heritage because it is a bloodline you must be a Sorcerer archetype to take.
Including Leadership is kinda pointless. 99% of games disallow it for good reason.
Re: Counterfeight Mage- you make some solid points but I'll rebut the following (this is all opinion really.)
1) The meat of what I actually like for trapfinding is the ability to deal with magical traps, the bonus isn't really a big deal to any rogue I've played.2) Quickdraw is specific to weapons, though most GMs handwaive that not everyone does.
3) I agree with your point on the 6th level ability.
I've found build where I'd use the archetype it isn't bad and can fit well in some builds, particularly low Cha ones.
Slayers aren't allowed at every table and I'd argue that Brogue has better style.
Drive By Skirmisher can protect his mount with mounted combat and an increasing array of abilities in the mounted feat chain, I beleive I included the TW feats that share reflex saves with an ally if not... I forgot.
I covered the bit about interpretation on Sylvan Bloodline most GMs I know of waive it, if not you can for 2 feats use the Animal Ally for the same effect.
I'll clean it up a little in my next pass and clarify the other option
Looks good so far. So far only a minor quibble outside of Scavion's thorough list. On your Sneaking Arcanist build, you have Eldritch Heritage down as a trait which isn't right and idk right off what trait you were actually referring to to suggest a correction.
Meant Magical Liniage, I'll correct that thanks.
I like your guide, as this is how I've always played a rogue(with dips because that's what rogue's do) For your Sniping Trigger build there is a better option. I was overjoyed when I found it, and I use it on a ton of my Rogue builds: Ricochet Shot it gives you sneak attack without the need for range extenders, as long as they have a "wall or piece of solid terrain" within 30' of them, you don't get any negatives from distance on your attack roll, and you target touch AC. The reason why you will most likely always get sneak attack with this is you will be at your max range increment and they should be flat-footed, or at least denied their dexterity bonus.
I will add that to the guide next pass
@Scott cool ideas I'll take them into consideration on my next pass as well
My version of the Intimidating Thug is a Thug/Scout Rogue 4/Snakebite Striker Brawler XX, pairing Skirmisher with Pummeling Charge and the frightening power of the Thug with qualification for Deadly Stroke.
I also swear by Violent Display with that build. It can easily be taken by any PC.
Another build I like is using a Sczarni Swindler with high Charisma and Eldritch Heritage: Shadow to Hide in Plain Sight and use Underhanded from Stealth. The Swindler provides me with a good Will boost, and a great luck bonus to either Stealth, Attack, Sleight of Hand (to hide weapon when I can't hide) or whatever I need. Plus it's a pretty good Feinter.
|
I find it interesting that you rate the druid and barbarian higher for multi-classing than the bloodrager. With a single level dip in bloodrager you get a strong fort save, natural attacks from the dragon or abyssal bloodline, and a bonus to will saves while raging. Paired with the rager's aide alchemical item to stave off fatigue, and the half-orc race (swapping race features to get toothy and sacred tattoos) can improve your weak saves by quite a bit.
The only problem with the rogue is the lack of good rogue talents. According to this guide 75% of the rogue talents are yellow or worse, which is about right. That means that only 25% of the talents are decent. The only 2 cyan talents swap out the talent for a combat feat. If getting a combat feat is broken and a must have then why bother with the rogue at all? Rogue talents should give the rogue something that no else can do, not give him what other classes already do better. When they start writing some decent rogue talents especially for out of combat then the rogue will be fine. Until then it is a weak class.
The thing is there's still more good talents than there are slots for those talents. The reason the feat ones get rated so high is because the rogue has decent options that are feat intensive.
The problem is that with so few good talents it means that pretty much all rogues are going to be the same. If you look at the list there are only 9 talents listed as blue or better and major magic requires minor magic which is green so that means there are 10 good talents out of about 90 listed. Some of those listed as green are actually pretty weak. Canny Observer for example is listed as green but is worse than skill focus perception. Weapon Training is listed as blue, but is pretty weak as it only gives a +1 to hit with a single weapon. You could get more for a single level dip for fighter. Ninja tricks are also listed as green, but to make that work you almost have to take Ki Pool. If that is the case you might as well play a ninja.