Trash Harvesting


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Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:


Anything reduced to 0 or a negative number automatically increases by 1 each 15 minute check. The negative number thing comes up if you happen to get a lot of items out of a node, and once we get the harvesting/gusher system online.

So if the fastest a resource will ever replenish is 1 every 15 minutes, and if you can get it to 0 it will automatically replenish then what is the harm in stripping every possible resource? I'm not following the advantage to leaving a hex alone. Even if it's only a 1% chance that the number will grow by 1 there's still a resource available to harvest.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:

We have a plan to go to a placed node system rather than the pure random system we have currently, which would fix a lot of the nodes in weird places issues we have now. With such a change we could make them more location relevant, but that project is a ways off as it is a lot of work.

So I imagine, if I'm still around when that time come, expect to be flooded with ideas of mine ... :-)

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

@Alexander Damocles: 72 resources would be 3 resources/hr x 24 hours? Did you mean 4/hr * 24 = 96? (And that's assuming everyone has agreed to not take hexes below 99%)

I also see depleted hexes. And wars over harvesting in the non-depleted hexes :)

Yes. That. The thing with the multiplying by the correct number.

I obviously need more coffee, thanks for catching the mathematical issue.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

<Kabal> Häagen wrote:
Lee Hammock wrote:


Anything reduced to 0 or a negative number automatically increases by 1 each 15 minute check. The negative number thing comes up if you happen to get a lot of items out of a node, and once we get the harvesting/gusher system online.
So if the fastest a resource will ever replenish is every 15 minutes, and if you can get it to 0 it will automatically replenish then what is the harm in stripping every possible resource? I'm not following the advantage to leaving a hex alone.

You would need to keep taking every 15 minutes, rather than allowing accumulation.

Goblinworks Lead Game Designer

<Kabal> Häagen wrote:
Lee Hammock wrote:


Anything reduced to 0 or a negative number automatically increases by 1 each 15 minute check. The negative number thing comes up if you happen to get a lot of items out of a node, and once we get the harvesting/gusher system online.
So if the fastest a resource will ever replenish is 1 every 15 minutes, and if you can get it to 0 it will automatically replenish then what is the harm in stripping every possible resource? I'm not following the advantage to leaving a hex alone. Even if it's only a 1% chance that the number will grow by 1 there's still a resource available to harvest.

At that point best case scenarion you're getting 7-20 resources, one per type, every fifteen minutes. Or you could go to a hex that is not mined out and get a lot more a lot faster.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:
At that point best case scenarion you're getting 7-20 resources, one per type, every fifteen minutes. Or you could go to a hex that is not mined out and get a lot more a lot faster.

Gotcha. So how would we tell at a glace? I'm walkin' through a hex and I start to mine, what should I see in an hour of mining in a good hex vs a stripped one?

And how does my rank work into depletion? Just a greater chance to take more from the hex in one node vs going to several nodes? How do the Tiers factor into ranks?

Oh and what if I see a resource and decide not to take it, does that avoid the depletion?

Goblinworks Lead Game Designer

<Kabal> Häagen wrote:
Lee Hammock wrote:
At that point best case scenarion you're getting 7-20 resources, one per type, every fifteen minutes. Or you could go to a hex that is not mined out and get a lot more a lot faster.

Gotcha. So how would we tell at a glace? I'm walkin' through a hex and I start to mine, what should I see in an hour of mining in a good hex vs a stripped one?

And how does my rank work into depletion? Just a greater chance to take more from the hex in one node vs going to several nodes? How do the Tiers factor into ranks?

Oh and what if I see a resource and decide not to take it, does that avoid the depletion?

Eventually you will be able to get resource information from the world map, at least about the hex you are in or neighboring hexes.

Currently your rank does not affect resource depletion except that higher ranking gatherers will deplete hexes faster and you need them to get higher tier items. You need level 7 skills to harvest tier 2 resources and level 14 to harvest tier 3.

Once you open a node the depletion check is run. If you choose not to take it, the numbers have already been decreased. I'd like to change this at some point, but it's a minor thing overall.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:

Eventually you will be able to get resource information from the world map, at least about the hex you are in or neighboring hexes.

Currently your rank does not affect resource depletion except that higher ranking gatherers will deplete hexes faster and you need them to get higher tier items. You need level 7 skills to harvest tier 2 resources and level 14 to harvest tier 3.

Once you open a node the depletion check is run. If you choose not to take it, the numbers have already been decreased. I'd like to change this at some point, but it's a minor thing overall.

Great info to know, thanks again Lee!

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:


Currently your rank does not affect resource depletion

Actually yes and no ...

I noticed with my scavenger 7, miner 7, forrester 7 that I started to find more and more tier 2 resources in comparison to tier 1.

Looking for iron I got a 3:1 ratio of gold instead.

Thinking about this it makes sense. There are not many tier 7+ miners around. This means iron gets depeleted but gold grows. I'm not from a mountain reagion myself - so wandering into a mountain region I will get after a while a lot more tier 2 resources as tier 1 resources.

I'm not even sure that this will rectify itself. This is an exponential growth if I'm not wrong - +1 if you are at 100%, +0.01 if you are at 1%. This will have the effect that tier 1 will be harvested a lot in early weeks and it just never can get back up again.

Tier 2 will be great for the early tier 2 harvesters.

Tier 3 will be a bonanza for the first who will get there.

Another effect - sought after resources (iron, coal, hides) will decline quickly - this means even less gets produced and they decline even further.

Not wanted resources (who cares about essence right now) will grow and grow and grow ...

So if something starts at 1000 - can it go to a value > 1000?

Assuming the above:
If tier 2 or tier 3 resources are at max - is their growth devided by the resources that are scrace.

I've been in a game where it worked like this - but you knew how many resources of each was available and you could manage it. Without that it will be locust harvesting sooner or later as someone will be desperate enough to harvest what is missing.

Will have to do some spreadsheet work to calculate how long it takes for a resource at 10 out of 1000 to recover to 1000.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Okay - here are the calculations:

If I get it right and a resource starts at 1000 points and is depleted to 10 that means the chance to increase by 1 is 1%.

This means it takes a full day to get statistically to 11.

Starting at 100 we get to 110. Starting at 900 we get to 990. So it is a 10% growth of what we have at the start of the day. A 10% growth rate per day means that if you fall to 10 out of 1000 (1%) it takes 48 1/2 days of no harvesting at all to recover to 1000.

What do I understand wrong? This truly can't be as intended.

hours resource Chance
0 10.0 1.00%
0.25 10.0 1.00%
0.5 10.0 1.00%
0.75 10.0 1.00%
1 10.0 1.00%
1.25 10.1 1.01%
1.5 10.1 1.01%
1.75 10.1 1.01%
2 10.1 1.01%
2.25 10.1 1.01%
2.5 10.1 1.01%
2.75 10.1 1.01%
3 10.1 1.01%
3.25 10.1 1.01%
3.5 10.1 1.01%
3.75 10.2 1.02%
4 10.2 1.02%
4.25 10.2 1.02%
4.5 10.2 1.02%
4.75 10.2 1.02%
5 10.2 1.02%
5.25 10.2 1.02%
5.5 10.2 1.02%
5.75 10.2 1.02%
6 10.2 1.02%
6.25 10.3 1.03%
6.5 10.3 1.03%
6.75 10.3 1.03%
7 10.3 1.03%
7.25 10.3 1.03%
7.5 10.3 1.03%
7.75 10.3 1.03%
8 10.3 1.03%
8.25 10.3 1.03%
8.5 10.3 1.03%
8.75 10.4 1.04%
9 10.4 1.04%
9.25 10.4 1.04%
9.5 10.4 1.04%
9.75 10.4 1.04%
10 10.4 1.04%
10.25 10.4 1.04%
10.5 10.4 1.04%
10.75 10.4 1.04%
11 10.4 1.04%
11.25 10.5 1.05%
11.5 10.5 1.05%
11.75 10.5 1.05%
12 10.5 1.05%
12.25 10.5 1.05%
12.5 10.5 1.05%
12.75 10.5 1.05%
13 10.5 1.05%
13.25 10.5 1.05%
13.5 10.6 1.06%
13.75 10.6 1.06%
14 10.6 1.06%
14.25 10.6 1.06%
14.5 10.6 1.06%
14.75 10.6 1.06%
15 10.6 1.06%
15.25 10.6 1.06%
15.5 10.6 1.06%
15.75 10.6 1.06%
16 10.7 1.07%
16.25 10.7 1.07%
16.5 10.7 1.07%
16.75 10.7 1.07%
17 10.7 1.07%
17.25 10.7 1.07%
17.5 10.7 1.07%
17.75 10.7 1.07%
18 10.7 1.07%
18.25 10.8 1.08%
18.5 10.8 1.08%
18.75 10.8 1.08%
19 10.8 1.08%
19.25 10.8 1.08%
19.5 10.8 1.08%
19.75 10.8 1.08%
20 10.8 1.08%
20.25 10.8 1.08%
20.5 10.9 1.09%
20.75 10.9 1.09%
21 10.9 1.09%
21.25 10.9 1.09%
21.5 10.9 1.09%
21.75 10.9 1.09%
22 10.9 1.09%
22.25 10.9 1.09%
22.5 10.9 1.09%
22.75 11.0 1.10%
23 11.0 1.10%
23.25 11.0 1.10%
23.5 11.0 1.10%
23.75 11.0 1.10%
24 11.0 1.10%

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

So this leaves two options for best harvesting:

Option 1:
Harvest 9% of max once a day and leave it untouched the remainder of the day.

Option 2:
Do strip harvesting - harvest all the time and try to get the single resource created every 15 minutes as often as possible,

Option 1 is no grind at all - but it only works if everyone else is not harvesting while you wait for it to replenish.

Option 2 is likely what will develop as it becomes the only sensible option once a resource drops to <10%.

Then there is the question - can it go to > as the starting value. In this case harvest nothing for a while and only later come back ...

As I said - I either don't understand the formula correctly - or the formula is not fit for purpose. Happy to work on a better one.

Goblin Squad Member

Thod wrote:

Starting at 100 we get to 110. Starting at 900 we get to 990. So it is a 10% growth of what we have at the start of the day. A 10% growth rate per day means that if you fall to 10 out of 1000 (1%) it takes 48 1/2 days of no harvesting at all to recover to 1000.

What do I understand wrong? This truly can't be as intended.

Hexes start with 0-5000 resources of each type. Figure that settlements ring hexes will be worked first, and some will be depleted. But the average newbie gatherer, with a max encumbrance of maybe 40 after a minor amount of gear, is going to be staggering back into town with maybe 80 resources per trip, if something like iron (0.5) is the average.

As resources get drawn down and node drops get low quality (heavier), the gatherers have to make more trips. Or they go further afield, so they spend more time in travel and less harvesting. The number of resources gathered per hour declines with both distant hexes and poor quality finds.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Whenever my recent tweaks go in, the general rule is:
* Ores and Logs are 1/2 to 2 encumbrance
* Cloths and Leathers are 1/4 to 1 encumbrance
* Chemicals, Essences, and Gems are 1/25 to 4/25 encumbrance

So you can carry twice as many cloths/leathers of the same concentration as ores/logs, and whole bunches of the smaller things.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's an interesting possibility of "slash and burn logging", where a group of characters goes through the area easiest for their rivals to gather or harvest and uses every node, wasting everything they can't carry back out.

In the hardest case (a hex with a rating of 5000 for a material) said raiders would have to start by causing a total harm of 500 or more per day (counting the efforts of others!), but once depletion was achieved could settle for a raid that size once a week to keep production low. If the people who want to undeplete the hex leave it alone, they gain nothing, but if they use the resources they have, there is no need for the raiders to return.

Keeping lots of hexes depleted would be very difficult, and with encumbrance the way it looks like it will be, productive gathering from remote hexes will not cause much depletion.

The political-economic dynamic begins to form; the next treaty discussion might well focus on if and when strip-burn mining is done. Or maybe there will be calls to 'correct' the emergent behavior with a server-side patch.

Goblin Squad Member

Lots of good information here that will make a good inclusion for PFO Wiki. Are there any other threads on hexes and resource distribution besides this one?

Goblin Squad Member

Well, now my scavenging is 70 and I'm clearly not in a settlement hex and I'm still getting the "you do not have the skill to harvest anything here" message--but only on trash piles. I'm stumped.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

You need to be level 7 not 70

A dwarf miner level 5 still can't get tier 2.

So if you are a dwarf (from memory scavenger +10) then you need another level.

Or you are in an area where you are behind the curve and resources shifted from tier 2 to tier 3.

I will generate a few spreadsheets this weekend as I fear the current algorithm has some pretty unwanted consequences,

Goblin Squad Member

Quite right, Thod. I have level 6 plus my +10 dwarven bonus, for a total of 70 skill.

As to being behind the curve, if that's the case then being a gatherer in PFO will be impractical and frustrating. Cruising around the far NW of the map, I go DAYS without seeing another character. If an area this underpopulated is already tapped out, I'd hate to be near the center of the River Kingdoms. As is, I can't increase my scavenging level without actually scavenging some trash heaps, which I can't do because (apparently) my scavenging level is too low. It's the great circle of suck.

Also, this is only an issue with trash heaps. Sparkly fog, plant nodes and mineral outcrops are no problem, and my gathering levels for those are no greater than my scavenging.

I guess I'm just having a hard time believing this is working as intended, is all.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Shaibes
Short term your issue is your level.

Long term - indeed I have the feeling that the harvesting isn't working long term as intended. GW does listen and they have a view how it should work.

I'm working on some spreadsheets to demonstrate what I think is wrong - and will work on suggested algorithms how it would work as I understand them that they want it to work.

I likely will misunderstand a few things - but that should either ensure it works as intended and the error is mine or they have the information to fix it.

Right now I'm under the impression a lot is getting skewed long term to non wanted distributions.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

If the long-term plan is to have knowledge: geography provide direct information about the resource types and levels, I think we might be able to coax the current values out of the designers if we ask very nicely.

We also might not, especially if the knowledge investment is intended to be significant and values are not expected to change.

Goblin Squad Member

If the current method is kept, I would recommend adding in an acceleration factor for resource generation. In the event that a hex is minimally harvested between resource ticks, the later ticks should add more resources. Whenever significant harvesting occurs, this bonus gets reset, similar to the method of gaining reputation outlined in the most recent blog post. Combine this with lower resource caps.

This would reward settlements that can exert control over their harvesting and would provide more interesting methods of resource denial.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:

We have a plan to go to a placed node system rather than the pure random system we have currently, which would fix a lot of the nodes in weird places issues we have now. With such a change we could make them more location relevant, but that project is a ways off as it is a lot of work.

And perhaps remove those nodes that appears in treetops.... or keep them and give us a climbing ability...

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