Divination / Foresight wizard, prescience power question

[Paulicus]

Hi all,

I had a situation come up in a PFS game this week about the divination/foresight wizard school power prescience. quick link here. A player and I had different interpretations, and I'm wondering which is correct:

A) You can choose to use your prescience roll in place of any d20 roll you can make instead of rolling for a save/attack/skill check/etc.

B) You are able to choose your prescience roll anytime during your turn, meaning that you can roll for an attack (for example) but decide to use your prescience roll afterwards if it's better.

Which do you think is correct?

[Gilarius]

An interesting question. Since I will be playing a diviner next, I'd like the answer to be A. As a GM, B is less powerful so preferable.

What do the rest of you think?

[Jeff Merola]

At the start of your turn, roll a d20. You can substitute that number at any point before the beginning of your next turn for a d20 you would have to roll, instead of rolling. So A. You don't get to roll first and then decide that you used your prescience roll.

Edit:

Gilarius wrote:

An interesting question. Since I will be playing a diviner next, I'd like the answer to be A. As a GM, B is less powerful so preferable.

What do the rest of you think?

Actually, B is stronger (but also wrong). He's not saying "I didn't like that roll, lemme use Prescience to reroll it" he's saying "I roll Prescience at the start of my turn and got an 18. I roll to attack and get a 2, so I'll use my stored roll instead."

[Claxon]

Quote:

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

At the start of your turn you roll a d20. At any point in your turn when you would roll a d20 you may instead use the result of the original roll. You do not get to see the outcome of the other roll and then choose to replace. If you do not use the roll before the end of the turn you lose it.

So, in your presentation, A.

[Gilarius]

Claxon wrote:

Quote:

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

At the start of your turn you roll a d20. At any point in your turn when you would roll a d20 you may instead use the result of the original roll. You do not get to see the outcome of the other roll and then choose to replace. If you do not use the roll before the end of the turn you lose it.

So, in your presentation, A.

Whilst this would resolve the issue, the line 'You do not get to see the outcome of the other roll' isn't present in the actual description you quoted.

And I got the A and B options the wrong way round in my previous post. Sorry.

[Jeff Merola]

Gilarius wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Quote:

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

At the start of your turn you roll a d20. At any point in your turn when you would roll a d20 you may instead use the result of the original roll. You do not get to see the outcome of the other roll and then choose to replace. If you do not use the roll before the end of the turn you lose it.

So, in your presentation, A.

Whilst this would resolve the issue, the line 'You do not get to see the outcome of the other roll' isn't present in the actual description you quoted.

And I got the A and B options the wrong way round in my previous post. Sorry.

It also doesn't say that you do get to see the result.

[Jiggy]

It's not 100% clear, but the ability seems (to me) to be worded as though you make the decision of whether or not to use your "banked" roll at the time that you find out that you're required to roll a d20.

Confidence = 78%

[Gilarius]

Jeff Merola wrote:

It also doesn't say that you do get to see the result.

Presicely. Hence the original question and why I and others are unsure of the answer.

It's pretty good either way, so I tend towards the 'not seeing a roll first and then replacing it' version. 65%?

[Glewistee]

i have always played my diviner as "B". After re-reading it, I can see going with "A". Lets hope my GM does not see tthis post.

[Paulicus]

Apologies if the descriptions were a bit confusing. We had trouble explaining the issue even in person, it's such a minute distinction :P

B is indeed the more powerful interpretation, as it works just like A, but adds in the ability to overwrite a roll already made.

I had always assumed "A" but now that I've been shown an alternate interpretation I can't see anything definitive either way. It's still a powerful ability so I'd probably run it that way given a choice, though my VL went with "B" when we asked.

[Paulicus]

The wording doesn't seem to be too clear either way, and it's such a small issue I don't anticipate any official response for some time. For now I'll just go with my VL/Organizer's opinion.

[EvilMinion]

You have the choice to use it to replace a d20 roll you are required to make not one you have already made.

Tense is important =)

So ya, once you roll the dice, you can no longer replace it.

[LazarX]

Jeff Merola wrote:

At the start of your turn, roll a d20. You can substitute that number at any point before the beginning of your next turn for a d20 you would have to roll, instead of rolling. So A. You don't get to roll first and then decide that you used your prescience roll.

Edit:

Gilarius wrote:

An interesting question. Since I will be playing a diviner next, I'd like the answer to be A. As a GM, B is less powerful so preferable.

What do the rest of you think?

Actually, B is stronger (but also wrong). He's not saying "I didn't like that roll, lemme use Prescience to reroll it" he's saying "I roll Prescience at the start of my turn and got an 18. I roll to attack and get a 2, so I'll use my stored roll instead."

He's wrong. you use the Prescience result INSTEAD of rolling. Prescience is like a Schrodinger effect, you either look at the box at the beginning of your turn or later on. Once you've done so, the fate is sealed.

Lets say you get a Prescience roll of 15 on the die. GM calls for a saving/attack/initiative roll. You either use that 15 for your die roll OR roll. If you choose to roll, then you're stuck with what you get.

[Malagant]

B is correct IMO. Let's keep in mind the flavor of a Diviner of this subschool; they are supposed to know things before they happen. They have a limited number of uses per day so it is not game breaking to let them choose after they know the result.

[Jeff Merola]

Malagant wrote:

B is correct IMO. Let's keep in mind the flavor of a Diviner of this subschool; they are supposed to know things before they happen. They have a limited number of uses per day so it is not game breaking to let them choose after they know the result.

I've yet to see one run out of uses. They have a lot of uses per day.

[Tarantula]

EvilMinion wrote:

You have the choice to use it to replace a d20 roll you are required to make not one you have already made.

Tense is important =)

So ya, once you roll the dice, you can no longer replace it.

I've gotta agree with you here. Have to use it before you make the roll.

[Cap. Darling]

Clearly A.
My diviner is very happy with this ability and it is quite powerfull without letting it be a super reroll X times a Day.
It is a Pre-Roll not a Re-roll.

[Cap. Darling]

Malagant wrote:

B is correct IMO. Let's keep in mind the flavor of a Diviner of this subschool; they are supposed to know things before they happen. They have a limited number of uses per day so it is not game breaking to let them choose after they know the result.

with version A it is very premonition like. You get a good idea about what kind of action that will be good. Like if you Roll a 20 it is Nice to try with a frigid touch Spell and if you get a 5 you save it in case there come a easy save or suck effect. Version A is actually more premonition like than version B even if B is more powerfull. Since A helps you decide your actions.

[Paulicus]

The main build I see this coming up in is gunslingers taking a level dip in order to avoid the dreaded misfires, haven't actually seen a full diviner in PFS except one guy at a con who was really into the role (he had a costume and everything).

I like that the 'less powerful' interpretation (A) is far more flavorful to a diviner, since it helps you choose your actions instead of just being an extra-special reroll.

The fact that the ability says nothing about "replacing" a roll makes me think that it's supposed to be (A), but I don't know if that's enough for a PFS setting.