Supernatural abilities cannot be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic.
It used to be that this was not a big deal as supernatural abilities were typically either limited in effect or abilities of the more powerful monsters.
Starting with the witch, we started seeing PC classes with supernatural abilities that acted like spells and were sometimes better with the exception they ignore spell resistance, counterspells, and dispel magic.
Now the upcoming Occult book adds a class with a supernatural ability that blasts opponents with energy.
I think giving PCs class abilities like this are potentially game-breaking. For example, I have seen witch's hexes take out opponents many CR higher while wizards and clerics were impotent due to the creature's SR.
Do you think this a problem? If so, what changes will fix it?
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I have seen witches die when they are within Hexing range while wizards and clerics who want to beat SR usually do, from range, or they summon which ignores SR and they do this from range. Or cast haste and let the fighty types win for me.
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Supernatural abilities cannot be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic.
It used to be that this was not a big deal as supernatural abilities were typically either limited in effect or abilities of the more powerful monsters.
Starting with the witch, we started seeing PC classes with supernatural abilities that acted like spells and were sometimes better with the exception they ignore spell resistance, counterspells, and dispel magic.
Now the upcoming Occult book adds a class with a supernatural ability that blasts opponents with energy.
I think giving PCs class abilities like this are potentially game-breaking. For example, I have seen witch's hexes take out opponents many CR higher while wizards and clerics were impotent due to the creature's SR.
Do you think this a problem? If so, what changes will fix it?
If a wizard and especially a cleric is shut down by SR that is a player problem, not a class problem, and witches can end certain combats, but just like any other class, such as the paladin's smite you as the GM have to take what the class can do into account when designing adventures, or even running AP's.
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Do you think this a problem?
No.
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The entire conjuration subschool is a gaming table nightmare
Pits have been banned from all my campaigns - not explicitly, but as soon as one of my players puts that on his spell list, suddenly every spellcaster they encounter has a slightly tweaked spell selection that includes that spell. Fight fire with fire. The game grinds to a halt and the other players tell that player to stop using that crappy spell.
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I can see your point about how this can potentially lead to a broken class, or classes, but I think that this is offset by the witches extreme vulnerability.
Especially as the players advance in levels, the witch becomes more and more at risk of being killed. This is partially due to low HD and AC, but also because they need to be in range to cast hexes.
Wizards and sorcerers can wear armor (albeit light), cast from further away, and have a host of promising utility spells that allow them to circumnavigates most obstacles.
A great example comes to mind of a witch that was in our party. AT level five, the witch moves in to a combat against some ogres. She slumbers one on her turn, but then they get to act. The book said they would target casters first, so they both charged the poor witch.
Having no armor and few magic items to boost AC, she was just butchered. They barely had to roll to hit. Two hits and she was unconscious. I know this can happen to wizards and sorcerers as well, but I don't think it would be as frequently.
I don't think the witch has a leg up on other casters in this respect.
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After the last episode with the Werewolf and Dean being a demon earlier, I think the show has jumped the shark.. wait, what was this thread about?
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This is partially due to low HD and AC
Scarred Witch Doctor to the rescue.
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The entire conjuration subschool is a gaming table nightmare
Pits have been banned from all my campaigns - not explicitly, but as soon as one of my players puts that on his spell list, suddenly every spellcaster they encounter has a slightly tweaked spell selection that includes that spell. Fight fire with fire. The game grinds to a halt and the other players tell that player to stop using that crappy spell.
Isn't that really passive-aggressive and a bit dickish? "I won't ban this option, but if you pick it I will go out of my way to ruin your gaming experience as punishment!"
It's better to just ban it, so everyone's on the same page.Isn't that really passive-aggressive and a bit dickish? "I won't ban this option, but if you pick it I will go out of my way to ruin your gaming experience as punishment!"The entire conjuration subschool is a gaming table nightmare
Pits have been banned from all my campaigns - not explicitly, but as soon as one of my players puts that on his spell list, suddenly every spellcaster they encounter has a slightly tweaked spell selection that includes that spell. Fight fire with fire. The game grinds to a halt and the other players tell that player to stop using that crappy spell.
Agreed.
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...how is "I as the GM will use the same spells as you" dickish or passive-aggressive? I'm honestly curious how using the exact same spells the players are using suddenly transforms them from "normal, everyday use" to "awful dick move". I could understand for a special personally researched spell or something, but for a bunch of spells in the Advanced Player's Guide? Seriously?
It's even part of the agreement I have with my players, "Anything that we add to the game for players to use is also fair game for opponents to use". This helps curb some of the more outlandish arguments with a simple "Yeah, but do you want your enemies to be able to do it?" It also brings me only 3PP content they actually care about and not just stuff that looks more powerful.
There's a difference between "NPCs can use that spell to" and what you said in your previous post. To remind you:
as soon as one of my players puts that on his spell list, suddenly every spellcaster they encounter has a slightly tweaked spell selection that includes that spell.
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There's a big difference between they can and sometimes use it, and they always have and use it. Now I do feel that it's fine because it's a nice spell and the players can find ways to deal with it. Changing a spell known for a different spell known isn't really changing much.
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You do know I didn't say that second quote, right? It's even in all your other posts above this. That's Purple Dragon Knight.
Oops. My bad.
Still, it's relevant point. There's a difference between "it's fair game for NPCs" and "every single NPC you encounter will use it."
Good players should be prepared to escape from pit spells. Every single NPC spellcaster using pit spells is fun-destroying, however.
Every single encounter PC using pit is fun-destroying too. Except you make fly encounters 3/4 of the time, which will make it ridiculous again.
yep...if you don't like a spell, it's better to ban/house rule it before game than simply make its use obnoxious. I mean...if every NPC wizard now uses Pit, what were they using before (I assume the PCs will have run into an enemy wizard a few levels above them by that point of the game).
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Every single encounter PC using pit is fun-destroying too. Except you make fly encounters 3/4 of the time, which will make it ridiculous again.
Or they could have a climb speed, or a very good climb, or acrobatics, or reflex save. They could have feather fall or a way to levitate. Dispel magic for allies to escape - etc.
As a dimensional space there is no penalty for being in the thing when the spell ends - they just end up outside the pit. The only thing it really does is provide a terrain obstacle and possibly a live hazard for whoever is under it if they can't deal with a hole in the ground.
There are other ways to deal with a pit than having everything fly....
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If a pit takes out an NPC, no big deal, something else was probably about to take that NPC out anyway. If a pit takes a PC out of combat, it is hugely frustrating for the Player to, each round, say, "Well, I roll Climb. Don't make it. Next."
A GM's fun shouldn't be reliant on the success of an NPC. A Player's fun, well, may not be reliant on success of their PC, but is certainly highly correlated with it.
Next to Summoners, Witches are the most broken class in the game.
Next to Summoners, Witches are the most broken class in the game.
Lol.
Summoners are broken, but in the actual sense (not the colloquial "this is OP" sense). They simply don't function properly due to odd wording and omitted sentences from abilities.
Witches are the most balanced full Arcane caster in the game. Their spell list is focused, and not too powerful (though not too weak either), and they have a number of useful Su powers to make up for it. The most "broken" Hex is Slumber...which is easily shut down if you're fighting any number of common enemy types (Undead especially) and mitigated by a high Will save, and much less useful unless you made an easy encounter with only one enemy.
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Next to Summoners, Witches are the most broken class in the game.
Witches? Summoners? Never seen a CRB only Wizard actually use their abilities have you?
Nope, no problem with it.
I do have an problem with you begging the question, however.
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It's not begging the question. A CRB only Wizard actually using their abilities makes both the Witch and Summoner look like toddlers comparatively. So considering those two classes broken in anyway, but not the Wizard indicates you've never seen the Wizard literally throttle the universe and thus your opinion on balance is of questionable value.
literally throttle the universe and thus your opinion on balance is of questionable value.
Keep in mind this is all subjective.
After reading the comments here and re-reading the Occult playtest, I don't think it is as big a concern as I once thought.
It's not begging the question. A CRB only Wizard actually using their abilities makes both the Witch and Summoner look like toddlers comparatively. So considering those two classes broken in anyway, but not the Wizard indicates you've never seen the Wizard literally throttle the universe and thus your opinion on balance is of questionable value.
Well not exactly.
Many people could feel that particular Wizard abilities are OP. Many GMs may easily house-rule or rule interpret out many of those abuses. But with the construction of the wizard class, then class is rarely ever ruined by such adjustments.
But more to the point. Other things being strong does not mean something else is not broken.
Now if people want to say close to RAW wizards are fine but witch/summoner isn't then I agree with you. Now it is possible that wizards-in-game are balanced but summoners and witches in-game aren't. This tends to come from GMs not willingly altering the rules, instead they interpret some wizard abuses to be less broken. You can't really do that with witch/summoner.
Nope, no problem with it.
I do have an problem with you begging the question, however.
[inigo_montoya.jpg]
[inigo_montoya.jpg]Nope, no problem with it.
I do have an problem with you begging the question, however.
?[inigo_montoya.jpg]Nope, no problem with it.
I do have an problem with you begging the question, however.
Just me being a jackass.
I don't see any question-begging going on in Rynjin's post.
If a pit takes out an NPC, no big deal, something else was probably about to take that NPC out anyway. If a pit takes a PC out of combat, it is hugely frustrating for the Player to, each round, say, "Well, I roll Climb. Don't make it. Next."
A GM's fun shouldn't be reliant on the success of an NPC. A Player's fun, well, may not be reliant on success of their PC, but is certainly highly correlated with it.
The player can choose not get angry about it. I think I was a fighter at the time and was trapped in a spiked pit. I told the rest of the group to kill that fool and that I would be fine. The whole fight was dotted with my swearing as I climbed and fell again due to a poor climb skill. I found it amusing. Though my fun is not related to my success. When I crit fail it is usually amusing and I take it that way.
And as a GM my PCs are the NPCs and I put a lot of effort into the Bard and she was put in a spiked pit and had mad monkeys dropped on her. I felt more aggravated as a GM than the player in the pit. Though that was because I wanted her to at least do something instead of the first round pit then death.
My former GM hated my witch because hexes 'were spells that were not spells'. Imo the problem is that when the GM can't get their head around the fact that hexes are not spells so the can't be lazy and just use typical spell caster countermeasures such as SR and then accuse the player of being a rules lawyer when the player in question points out that a core feature of their class isn't subject to SR.
With regards to the range issue of hexes a useful thing I found was to use split hex and maybe scar to 'bounce' a hex from an immune ally to an enemy e.g. the desired victim of your slumber hex is 70ft away from you but within 30ft the teams scarred immune-to-magic-sleep-effects-elven ranger - simply target the elf then bounce the hex onto the victim.
Though what I wonder is if the elven immunity counts as an automatic saving throw for the purposes of accursed hex?
Here's my advice to other DM's: Relax. So your player has some Sp abilities. So what? You have the entire ruleset at your finger tips. Monsters, NPC's, spells, items, etc. You wanna challenge the players just create a challenge. Heck, read through rules for weather and terrain. Use those too.
There are some truly broken things out there. But the pit spells hardly qualify. As a DM you should be able to handle a spell like that. Yeah, I know you had this vision in your head of how the battle will play out. Maybe you made some npc's that you thought would be tough but they ended up at the bottom of a pit. That's okay. Here's a secret: Sometimes its totally okay for your players to curb stomp the bad guys. Don't feel offended cause your uber encounter of dread turned out to be a breaze. Let your players be badasses.
The witch in our campaign has been very useful, using hexes from a distance to lower the enemies chances of hitting and things like that. She is essentially a buffer to our characters and an anti-buffer to the enemies. My brawler character has really benefited from her hanging back and messing with the enemies that he is fighting.
?[inigo_montoya.jpg]Nope, no problem with it.
I do have an problem with you begging the question, however.
Just me being a jackass.
I don't see any question-begging going on in Rynjin's post.
And by Rynjin I meant Anzyr. I'm on a roll this thread!
/forget it, pig; it's Paizotown
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I agree with the point about witch supremacy: I mean, witches are obviously the best class. The coolest, the best. No point playing anything else nope.
As for the new guys, I think the theory behind their abilities is the fact that they can do very little otherwise. The Occultist starts out with access to only 1 spell school, if I'm not mistaken, which is severely limiting, and the kineticist is basically a martial class that makes energy attacks instead of weapon attacks: I'm sure that, after the playtest result are in and Paizo revises, they will be balanced enough for play. I have faith in the team.
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Supernatural abilities cannot be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic.
It used to be that this was not a big deal as supernatural abilities were typically either limited in effect or abilities of the more powerful monsters.
Starting with the witch, we started seeing PC classes with supernatural abilities that acted like spells and were sometimes better with the exception they ignore spell resistance, counterspells, and dispel magic.
Now the upcoming Occult book adds a class with a supernatural ability that blasts opponents with energy.
I think giving PCs class abilities like this are potentially game-breaking. For example, I have seen witch's hexes take out opponents many CR higher while wizards and clerics were impotent due to the creature's SR.
Do you think this a problem? If so, what changes will fix it?
I don't think it's a problem. Just as the player party can coordinate to take on a challenge, so too can the NPCs/monsters. For the longest time, the mantra has been "Kill the Wizard first.". It may become "Kill the Occultist* first.". *Occultist meaning any of the new occult classes in the upcoming book.
In your example, had the witch not been there, and instead a fighter took out the opponent (they do ignore SR pretty good I would say, almost OP), would you be saying the fighter is a problem? There are plenty of spells a cleric or wizard could cast that would beef up the fighter, and make it an unfair advantage. If the wizard's just going to "lol fireball" everything, well, they get what they deserve eventually.
You're also completely ignoring the fact that there may be other things in the book that could be used to boost monsters.
I mean, in the end, you're the GM. If you want the monster or NPC to resist the supernatural power, well, GM fiat away. That occultist can still die to mass arrows, being surrounded and dragged down by a horde of goblins, dropped down into pits filled with ouchies, the list goes on.
I'm not going to worry because they can hurt the monsters a bit more...