Running and Attacks of Opportunity


Rules Questions


I've an odd question concerning running and attacks of opportunity by the individual who was running. If someone uses a run action to get within melee range of someone (such as an Archer), and the archer attacks with the bow, would the runner get an attack of opportunity?

For example: say you have several stone giants in a ranged battle with a group of PCs. The giants are realizing they are losing this battle but are not within charge range. Would they be able to sacrifice their attack and then get within reach of the PCs... and then get attacks of opportunity if the archer tried to fire another arrow? Worse, should the giants get within reach of any one character who was horrid at melee combat, if they try to Withdraw, they risk an AoO from someone who ran after them but has reach.

Or does the act of Running negate the ability to make AoO until the entity's next round?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Running does not render you flat-footed, so you could still take AoOs at the end of your run.


However, it does negate your Dexterity bonus unless you have the Run feat. Is that not in essence what Flatfooted is?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Being denied your Dex to AC, and being Flat-footed, are not quite the same thing.

Grand Lodge

I've a somewhat related question. A GM recently told one of the players that he can only "run" in a straight line. I wasn't able to find that. Is that a rule somewhere and I just missed it? If so, where is it?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

"When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). "

Tangent101 wrote:
Is that not in essence what Flatfooted is?

Nowhere in the rules does it say a character who is denied their Dex is flatfooted. Flatfooted says you lose your Dex, but not the other way around.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
"When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). "

Thanks.. That's what I get for trying to find the answer on my phone..

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Remember that the "straight line" being referred to does not have to coincide with the grid on the play mat. As in, you're not limited to only running north-south or east-west.


Flatfooted and losing dex to AC are often conflated because being flatfooted causes you to lose your dex to AC. But they are not the same thing.

It's kind of like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are square.

So, the character could make an AoO if the enemy does something to provoke it. From a gamist perspective, I know that very few giants have combat reflexes. As your archer I would attempt to guess whether or not I thought I could kill him on my next full attack. If I thought I could taking only 1 attack of opportunity to kill him seems like the best scenario. Depending on position I might otherwise do a withdraw action. Of course with reach he has probably moved all the way up to me so that I can't 5ft step away and get out of his threatened area so withdraw wont help either (as it only protects the first square of movement). So again, probably just full attacking is the best case scenario and taking the single hit.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tangent101 wrote:
I've an odd question concerning running and attacks of opportunity by the individual who was running. If someone uses a run action to get within melee range of someone (such as an Archer), and the archer attacks with the bow, would the runner get an attack of opportunity?

If I were GM'ing (outside of PFS), I would be inclined to allow the AoO.

Look at it from a cost/benefit standpoint. Player spends a full-round action running, loses Dex to AC, opens themselves to retaliatory AoOs along the way in exchange for ending their Move next to an opponent. That really isn't much of a benefit. A player that does this is desperate. I don';t think allowing them an AoO against the Ranged opponent is out of line, especially if the opponent only needs to 5' Step on their turn to invalidate the AoO.

-Skeld


Yeah, I figured the Run action was an action of last resort - in which three stone giants were fighting four archers starting at 200 feet. After the first giant fell and the second was fairly badly wounded, I realized even a double-move wouldn't put the giants in charge range. But running would. Given that one character was moving last, the giants would both be able to get in the face of said character.

Fortunately this didn't even happen in-game; my group decided to "bribe" the surviving two Black Arrows (with Orik and Shalelu) into helping defend Sandpoint with the magic items they recovered from the end of Book 3 of RotRL, and I figured the group would probably set up defenses for each part of town that was at risk (ie, the bridges). So this was more of a trial run to see what would happen with the Black Arrows (and an additional giant).

As it is, I'll be redoing the combat scenario as I'd forgotten the Giant-bane arrows; that said, the giants were losing and the only thing I could think of that the giants could do to even the odds was use Run. Seeing there were no enemies in melee range for doing an AoO, Run was the most effective way to close the distance.

The only question was how Run would impact AoOs; it is also a rather nasty way of dealing with spellcasters. Just have an enemy with Disruptive run up to the spellcasters and stop right next to them. If the enemy doesn't have a Dexterity modifier then there's no negative effect from Running outside of losing an attack - and with AoOs against ranged combatants and the extra penalty to Concentration checks, it becomes a nasty way of shutting down a spellcaster.

Shadow Lodge

Yes, it can be nasty if an enemy with natural reach runs up right next to an archer or caster such that they can't 5ft step or withdraw. But then, it's also nasty when the enemy does that with a charge - my 6th level barbarian recently charged into a small outpost filled with 3 ranged defenders and demolished them. It's one of the hazards of being a dedicated archer or caster.

It's basic tactics. A melee-focused attacker who is in melee does more damage puts a ranged attacker or caster on the defensive. Thus a melee character generally wants to close as fast as possible with a ranged attacker. If you can charge, great, but if you need to close a lot of distance running is fine. It's still the worst possible way to close because it takes an entire action just moving and denies you your dex bonus (which does open you up to Sneak Attack, even if you don't have a dex bonus). If you've got cover or a decent ranged option yourself it might make sense to advance more cautiously, but if you're in an open field it's probably better to run than take another round of full attacks from the archers.

A smart ranged character knows that getting a melee brute in your face is risky and can minimize the danger with choices like Point Blank Master, Combat Casting, teleportation, the Acrobatics skill, putting things in between yourself and any potential chargers/runners (eg difficult terrain, melee types who will physically block or take AoO on the attackers). And in turn the attacker may have abilities that make them more of a pain for the ranged character, like reach, Combat Reflexes, Disruptive, Step Up (and maybe Strike).

This sort of maneuvering is part of the fun.

Sczarni

Krodjin wrote:
Remember that the "straight line" being referred to does not have to coincide with the grid on the play mat. As in, you're not limited to only running north-south or east-west.

And, unlike charging, you can run through an ally's square.


Point Blank is master is where it's at.

I am playing a ranger archer currently, my GM was kind enough to allow me to pick up a Roc as an animal companion. Because of this I spend pretty much all my time mounted on my Roc and I haven't picked up Point Blank Master because very few things that melee also fly. If they do I make sure to kill them first because they threaten me most. If there is more than 1 then I stay near something else with melee power.

However, if I had to stay on horseback I would have picked up PBM. And not cared about shooting my bow in anyone's face.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Running and Attacks of Opportunity All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.