Apologies if this is in the wrong area.
This is an (probably poor) attempt to self-playtesting an earth based Kinetisist. Each earth kineticist seen here is lv. 6 human and 20 point buy. Stats and such can be found below. This is my first play-through of the class (of course) and as such I may and probably will get something wrong.
Human Kineticist – Geokineticist Builds
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (+2 human racial bonus)
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8
Abilities:
Infusion Specialist (Form): Extend Range
Kinetic Blast: (Earth) = 3d6 +3 +3
Feel the Burn
Metakinesis (Empower)
Wild Talents:
1st - Extend Range
2nd – Kinetic Cover
4th – Kinetic Blade
6th – Snaking
Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Precise Shot
3rd – Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast)
5th – Iron Will
Skills:
Perception: 6 + 3 + 1 = +10
Climb: 6 + 3 = +9
Stealth: 6 + 3 + 4 = +13
Stats:
HP: 47 [Toughness + Favored Class Bonuses]
AC: 17 = 10 + 3 Masterwork Studded Leather Armor + 4 DEX
WILL: +5 [+2 +2 Iron Will +1 WIS]
FORT: +8 [+5 +3 FORT]
REFL: +9 [+5 +4 DEX]
CMD: 18 [10 + 4 BAB + 4 DEX]
CMB: +4 [+4 BAB]
To Hit: +9 (+10 if within 30ft.) [+4 BAB +4 DEX + Weapon Focus]
Initiative: +4
STR: 18 (+2 human racial bonus)
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
Feats:
1st – Toughness
1st – Iron Will
3rd – Power Attack
5th – Improved Iron Will
Abilities:
Infusion Specialist (Form): Kinetic Whip
Kinetic Blast: (Earth) = 3d6 +3 +3
Feel the Burn
Metakinesis (Empower)
Wild Talents:
1st – Kinetic Blade
2nd – Extend Range
4th – Kinetic Cover
6th – Kinetic Whip
Skills:
Perception: 6 + 3 = +9
Stealth: 6 + 3 + 1 = +10
Climb: 6 + 3 + 4 = +13
Stats:
HP: 40 [Toughness + Favored Class Bonuses as bonuses]
AC: 14 [10 + 3 Masterwork Studded Leather Armor + 1 Dex]
WILL: +4 [+2 + 2 Iron Will + 1 Reroll once per day]
FORT: +8 [+5 +3 CON]
REFL: +6 [+5 + 1 DEX]
CMD: 19 [10 + 4 BAB + 4 STR + 1 DEX]
CMB: 8 [+ 4 BAB + 4 STR]
To Hit: 4 BAB + 4 STR
Initiative: +1
Note: The way I'm going to run the following playtest is to run proper CR creatures for his lv. i.e. CR 3 (which may be high challenge) and will do my very best to be objective. Also note that I will be averaging rolls as suggested by another in a different thread. Example: Always using 10 for a d20 roll on both sides, 4 or d8s, 3 for d6s, etc... Lastly, each encounter will begin at 60ft away, without any obstacles between them to begin with. I realize that this could skew things, but I feel its fair for both sides and it simplifies the playtest a bit since it will be on thread.
Initiatives: Blasty = 14, Lion =17. Lion goes first.
1st round. Lion charges and pounces using bite and attempting a grab. 17 hits AC of 17. Bite hits for 8 damage. Grapple for 19 beats the 18 CMD and Blasty is grappled.
Blasty's move. Neither average combat manuever nor escape artist averages break the grapple... ever. So he's effectively dead. That being the case, we'll give chance a chance and let the thread roll to break the grapple and see the possible outcomes.
What do you know. We got lucky. Breaking is a standard action, and the lions reach means a 5ft step won't help us here. Moving away will simply result in the lion attempting (and succeeding on average) a charge pounce once more. Meaning character is dead.
Less Initiative bonus plus less AC means on average the lion will kill Stabby McStabbyton as well. That being said, we'll attempt rolls for the sake of trying
Initiatives: vs
Lion goes first. Charge to pounce with bite. hits the AC of 14. . 11 damage leads to grapple attempt, more than hits, so Stabby is grappled. Stabby tries to free himself. He breaks grapple, moves away and Lion decides to charge for pounce once more. This time we'll give Stabby a small break and go claws no grab. Hits with one claw, misses with second. That's 19 total lethal damage thus far.
Stabby tries his hand at an attack. Makes a one handed weapon out of stone pointy-ness from Kinetic Blade. Lion gets AOO (I think) due to doing this beside the lion, and the lion misses. Stabby attempts his name sake. and hits. He deals his kinetic blast as damage so and the lion takes 15. Nearly half way down with only 17 HP left on it. Stabby takes 6 points of non-lethal from burn due to kinetic blade.
Lion attempts bite and grapple. and he misses. Lion might as well full attack while there so , miss and fumble, roll for confirm and manages not to fumble.
Stabby attempts another stabby. Kinetic blades up. Lion gets his AOO (I think) hits with bite with grab attempt and hits bite, but doesn't grab. Stabby attempts stab and now to confirm crit crit confirms so that double damage I believe. .
Stabby manages to decimate the Lion. Through chance. Remember though that without chance and by way of average, Lion would win. Only with an AC of 18 would the lion miss on an average roll of 10. Had Blasty been given the Dodge feat, he would on average at least be able to avoid being hit. Whether With his average to hit being 19, and the average damage dealt by his blasts being 15 (i.e. 3d6 + 3 + 3 CON) he'd have, on average, killed the lion in about 3 rounds.
Going to take a quick break and move on to the next round, Blasty vs River Drake and Stabby vs River Drake.
14>13.
Why did the Lion go before Stabby?
Woops. My bad. Got them mixed up it seems. Reading through some of the threads, I think I'll be tweaking Stabby a bit to work off of dex using weapon finesse as, at this time at least, none of the damage from kinetic blade / whip comes off of strength at all. Also need to tweak the infusion specialization to say form or substance instead of a specific infusion.
I didn't have time to work out the river drake vs blasty & stabby, so I'll try to do it at some point tomorrow with their updated tweaks.
The fumbles was me getting mixed up due to past games with my DM. He does critical miss and I guess I'm so used to it that I got myself caught up in his house rule.
I shall attempt to run both types of encounters (rolls and averages).
I shall also indeed tweak stabby to use a weapon finesse build.
As for DR... I honestly had forgotten about it but will be using it in the future. I also noticed that I may have forgotten the extra HP from constitution. In any event, I shall have the new, improved / correct builds made up tonight and either redo Lion with the better test model, or simply move on to the river drake.
Ok. So I've decided to go Lion again after tweaking both Blasty and Stabby builds. I've given each a mithril shirt, something that should be understandably easy to manage at 6th level wealth. I've altered Stabby so that he now works off of Weapon Finesse, losing improved iron will in the process. Updated Builds can be found below. Note that while traits are commonly accepted, I have not included them for those DMs that limit or don't allow them. Granted I could have a higher initiative and will save with them, but whatevs.
As per Kestral287's suggestion, I will be running both average roll and actual roll types of encounters for my encounters from now on. Re-starting with the Lion.
STR: 10
DEX: 18 (+2 human racial bonus)
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8
Abilities:
Infusion Specialist (Form)
Kinetic Blast: (Earth) = 3d6 +3 +3
Feel the Burn
Metakinesis (Empower)
Wild Talents:
1st - Extend Range
2nd – Kinetic Cover
4th – Kinetic Blade
6th – Snaking
Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Precise Shot
3rd – Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast)
5th – Iron Will
Skills:
Perception: 6 + 3 + 1 = +10
Climb: 6 + 3 = +9
Stealth: 6 + 3 + 4 = +13
Stats:
HP: 65 [Toughness + Favored Class Bonuses]
AC: 18 = 10 + 4 Mithril Shirt + 4 DEX
WILL: +5 [+2 +2 Iron Will +1 WIS]
FORT: +8 [+5 +3 FORT]
REFL: +9 [+5 +4 DEX]
CMD: 18 [10 + 4 BAB + 4 DEX]
CMB: +4 [+4 BAB]
To Hit: +9 (+10 if within 30ft.) [+4 BAB +4 DEX + Weapon Focus]
Initiative: +4
STR: 10
DEX: 18 [+2 Favored Class Bonus]
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 12
CHA: 8
Feats:
1st – Toughness
1st – Weapon Finesse
3rd – Power Attack
5th – Iron Will
Abilities:
Infusion Specialist (Form)
Kinetic Blast: (Earth) = 3d6 +3 +3
Feel the Burn
Metakinesis (Empower)
Wild Talents:
1st – Kinetic Blade
2nd – Extend Range
4th – Kinetic Cover
6th – Kinetic Whip
Skills:
Perception: 6 + 3 + 1 = +10
Stealth: 6 + 3 + 4 = +13
Climb: 6 + 3 = +9
Stats:
HP: 58 [Toughness + Favored Class Bonuses as bonuses]
AC: 18 [10 + 4 Mithril Shirt + 4 Dex]
WILL: +5 [+2 + 2 Iron Will + 1 WIS]
FORT: +8 [+5 +3 CON]
REFL: +9 [+5 + 4 DEX]
CMD: 18 [10 + 4 BAB + 0 STR + 4 DEX]
CMB: 4 [+ 4 BAB]
To Hit: +8 = 4 BAB + 4 DEX
Initiative: +4
Starting 60ft. apart in an open field, no obstructions or obstacles.
Lion Initiative = 17 on average where Blasty's will be 14. Lion goes first.
Lion charges for pounce with bite. His 17 + 2 for charging and hits Blasty. Blasty takes 9 damage on average from Lion Bite and Lion attempts a grab. His 23 average on grapples easily defeats Blasty's CMD and Blasty is now grappled. Blasty's turn.
Blasty attempts to break grapple but on average cannot with a CMB of +4 -2 for being grappled. He uses his DR ability, burning himself for 3 points getting the maximum DR 6 dealing himself 18 non-lethal damage. He is now 9 lethal damage, 18 non-lethal damage.
Lion rakes and 7 for each rake, however his DR decreases the damage down to 1 each. Despite all of this, he cannot on average break the grapple and therefore dies a very, very slow death as the lion rakes him to shreads.
Same field as above (as it will be for the rest).
and and Blasty wins initiative and goes first.
Blasty will use an immediate action to gain his DR and will burn himself for 3 to max it to DR 6 and thus also qualifies for +1 point of attack and damage under Feel the Burn. Feeling it'll be best to keep the Lion at range he moves 30ft backward (leaving them 90ft apart) and attempts to attack the Lion. and Blasty misses quite badly.
The Lion seeing his target so far away will run up to his opponent since charge is not an option at that range. The Lion loses any DEX bonus to AC due to run rules. Dropping its AC to 12.
So as not to meta, we'll assume that since the Kineticist doesn't have knowledge nature as a skill, that he wouldn't understand that the Lion has reach. So therefore Blasty will take a 5ft. step backward and attempt a kinetic blast (since he doesn't have weapon finesse). If I recall correctly the Lion gets an AOO (this may be wrong or may change). and the Lion misses. Blasty's attack continues and since the lion is within 30ft. Blasty gets +1 more to attack from point blank shot. and the attack hits. a solid hit for 18 lethal damage. Lion's turn.
Lion moves forward 5 ft. and attempts a bite attack with grab. and now to confirm for crit well that's more than confirmed. -6 from DR equals 10 lethal damage. Lion attempts a grapple and Blasty is grappled.
Blasty attempts to break from grapple and he does not.
Lion rolls to maintain hold it does and attacks for it's rakes both hit. and Blasty takes 3 of that after DR. Since that was a free action, I believe the lion auto gets to do normal natural attack damage as well. So we'll do it off of bite. giving 2 more damage. So 15 total lethal and 18 non-lethal for Blasty.
Blasty attempts to break from grapple . He does not.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . Maintains. Goes for its rake attacks neither manage to bypass Blasty's chain shirt it appears. Auto damage from bite and that makes it 1 more lethal point of damage.
Blasty attempts to break. . No such luck.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . Maintains. Goes for its rake attacks neither manage to bypass Blasty's chain shirt even after the -4 to DEX (i.e. -2 to AC). Auto damage from bite and DR negates it.
Blasty attempts to break. . Again no such luck.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . Maintains. Goes for its rake attacks second rake hits for . Auto damage from bite and DR negates all but one of it. Meaning an additional 3 points of lethal. 19 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Yet again no such luck.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . Maintains. Goes for its rake attacks both rakes hits for . Auto damage from bite . Meaning an additional 8 points of lethal this round. 27 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Blasty does not like being grappled...
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks Second rake hits for . Auto damage from bite and DR negates all but 3 of it. 30 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Blasty REALLY does not like being grappled...
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks First rake hits for and DR negates it. Auto damage from bite . 37 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Haha wow... what up with this Paizo thread? lol jk.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks Second rake hits for and DR negates it. Auto damage from bite . 43 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Nope...
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks both hit. Confirm for rake #2 . Auto damage from bite . 50 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . This is kind of silly.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks First hits. . Auto damage from bite . 51 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Well what do you know... he manages to break it out of no where... for now. Anyways, Blasty is going to take a 5ft step back.
Lion moves forward and attempts to bite into grapple since it worked so nicely thus far. and it hits. . 54 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. .
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks Both hits. . Auto damage from bite . 57 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Does not break.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks Both hits. . Auto damage from bite . 62 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty attempts to break. . Does not break.
Lion rolls to maintain grapple . With the +5 that grapplers get to maintain, the lion maintains. (Note I haven't done the +5 up to this point, but it hasn't mattered up until now.) Goes for its rake attacks First hits. . Auto damage from bite . 66 lethal and 18 non-lethal.
Blasty dies a LONG LONG LONG LONG agonizing death... whew.
Stabby vs Lion (Average Rolls Edition)
Ok. So with the same stats as Blasty, just built differently feat and talent wise. We can easily assume the same results as the average roll test that we had for Blasty. I.e. Lion wins.
and
Lion goes first. He does what we'd expect the lion to do and charges for pounce and misses. Stabby's turn.
Stabby uses an immediate action to bring his DR up to 6, accepting 3 burn for 18 non-lethal damage. He then goes for kinetic blade, lion gets AOO and hits. for 4 lethal damage after DR. From what I'm reading it seems that people are 1/2 and 1/2 on the subject of if one can grab during another persons turn due to only supposed to being able to use a free action on ones own turn. So, to try and avoid another wall of text, at least for now, we'll go with that it can't. I believe I roll for concentration or kinetic blade fizzles, the DC being 15. and makes it. Stabby goes for his attack, and roll to confirm does not confirm. . 17 lethal damage to lion, 4 lethal and 18 non-lethal to Stabby. Stabby moves away from the lion, by 10 ft., not wanting to give the lion the momentum it seemed to have the first time it charged. Lion doesn't have a second AOO due to not having appropriate feat.
Lion moves forward and attempts a bite lion hits and deal a total of 3 more damage after DR. For 7 lethal and 18 non-lethal. Lion goes for grab Stabby is grappled and here we go again.
Stabby attempts to break grapple and we get our standard low roll.
Lion attempts to maintain and of course maintains. Since the score of 18 (+5 included) pretty much means auto maintaining (I just now realized this) I'm going to leave this part out of future grapples. first hits. and auto damage from bite . 13 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple and just misses breaking free.
Lion attacks Both hit. and auto damage from bite . 19 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple
Lion attacks Second hits. and auto damage from bite . 23 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple . Nope.
Lion attacks Second hits. and auto damage from bite . 26 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple . Nope.
Lion attacks Both hit. and auto damage from bite . 35 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple . Nope.
Lion attacks Second hits and confirms. and auto damage from bite . 45 lethal, 18 non-lethal.
Stabby attempts to break grapple . He breaks and attempts to move back by 10 ft. Lion AOO and hits for leaving him at 50 lethal and 18 non-lethal. Lion's turn.
Lion moves forward attacking with bite for grab (if it hits) and misses.
Stabby tries to call for kinetic blade, giving Lion another AOO and and manages to kill Stabby before he can strike.
There we have it. 10 things that I learned by this updated run.
1) - DR was actually quite handy (in this run). Had Stabby been with a group, he'd have been at the very least a fairly resilient front line distraction. I'd imagine it'd be so-so vs. blast magi and two-handed weapon users, but thems the breaks.
2) - A universal wild talent that gives a bonus to get out of grapple seems like it'd could be very useful. At least in this particular type of case.
3) - Perhaps my AC wasn't high, but to me it seems to be average for this level. Perhaps medium armor proficiency would be nice though.
4) - I haven't seen any official word on whether kinetic blasts, blades and whips cause AOOs. If so, perhaps a feat that makes each or all of them not do so.
5) - Getting grappled by a Lion sucks.
6) - I feel fairly confident, that at this level at least, they were fairly accurate. First miss with Blasty was a 1 so that would miss anything. That being said, I don't see any actual harm in giving at the very least full BAB.
7) - I would have loved to be able to do some battlefield control by this level. Force the enemy to walk through difficult terrain instead of run. But perhaps that's coming later or maybe I missed something like this.
8) - I could have used my Empower Metakinesis, but in this run it wouldn't have mattered. Even another 6 wouldn't have helped here.
9) - In this particular encounter, kinetic cover didn't provide much help. I expect it may in the future against ranged foes however.
10) - The lack of current low level options makes the geokineticist limited in function. I do get a feeling or raw power when playing it, but currently not effective raw power.
River Drake hopefully coming in the future.
The confirmation was a mistake. I probably had so many numbers flying around that it was beginning to become difficult to keep track. Still, however, my mistake anyways.
Power Attack didn't matter as I didn't include it on any of the attacks. However you are correct, he wouldn't qualify. I'll take that into account for the future.
There's really not much else besides kinetic cover in lower range wild talents. There's push. Which pushes them back 5 feet. That doesn't do much for me. For Blasty, I could have taken whip I suppose. For Stabby, I'm not sure. I guess just do what Blasty would and weapon focus (Kinetic Blast) maybe even blade if allowed.
I realize the lion had 5' of reach. I think that's why I was having Stabby move back by 10 when possible. That being said, I suppose the lion could have stopped 5' short on the charge, but it seems like it'd benefit the lion the most to get up close and personal.
I shall use casting defensively in future trials. Another misplay, and he could have taken less damage because of it. Maybe even survived or won. I really should have remembered this one as the character I play in my group is a wizard. GAH!
I had thought 5-foot steps and movement were not allowed together. But it seems that it's only after the fact. I.e. you cannot 5-foot step after moving. That was a misconception on my part.
You make a very good point about attacking during the grapple and I should have recalled it and it is, again, my mistake. I suppose I don't get into grappling enough to remember it, but that just means I should go back and remind myself.
I will note that you bringing up the attacking during grapple gives me an idea. I think it'd be useful to be able to hold onto the kinetic blade weapon instead of it only lasting until the end of turn. So I think I'll suggest maybe allowing one to accept burn to hold onto the weapon for a longer period of time.
In any event. With the amount of mistakes I make, I wonder if I shouldn't bother play testing at all. After all, I can't really do it with my play group at the moment. But even if I do stop, I've learned quite a bit more towards system mastery and I do thank you for that kestral. I guess I'll have to think over whether I want to do the river drake if I'm going to screw up so many things. Oh well.
<snip>4) - I haven't seen any official word on whether kinetic blasts, blades and whips cause AOOs. If so, perhaps a feat that makes each or all of them not do so.
From how kinetic blades is phrased, it does not sound like they provoke AoO (they're worded like a swift/free action) which means that Stabby would've had a little more luck. (also since they're a free/swift, you could have used them in a grapple, as long as you made a light weapon to make that lion suffer for his transgressions grappling you.)
Peter
I've seen it being "argued" both ways in the other thread Peter. So, if in the end it doesn't provoke an AOO, I suppose that's one more nudge towards going with a melee type. For some at least.
Hey Third Mind, they updated the first post of the kineticist thread:
<snip>
Kinetic blade uses the same critical range and multiplier as a usual kinetic blast (which is 20/x2). Since it is used as part of a full attack or attack action, it doesn't have its own additional action cost, but you still can only use one instance of kinetic blade with your full attack (that is, you can't summon up 50 kinetic blades, but you can make a full attack with the one blade you did summon). The same is true for kinetic whip.
No action cost means no AoO :D :D :D
(thank you for all the number crunching by the way, I really like your builds :D)
Peter
Good idea Jeff. I shall do so.
Alright. So I'm going to do the River Drake anyways, because even if I screw up, then I learn more.
As Kestral suggests, I'm going to give both a pair of spiked gauntlets. Maybe Cestus instead if they act the same way (I just like cestus more haha) if not spiked gauntlets it is.
I'm considering dropping toughness for Blasty, in order to give him Improved Initiative. I'll keep toughness on Stabby as he's meant to be front line.
For now, I'm going to assume kinetic blade triggers AOOs. I like to assume worst case scenarios until I've a reason not to.
Thanks for the corrections and input everyone.
I see. Well, I have thoughts on possibly helping with that. But I suppose that belongs in another thread somewhere.