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Why is it being discussed?
From what I have personally seen, the MoMS, with cut rope and enough grapple, can pretty much hog tie any foe in two rounds. Flurry of Maneuvers for Grapple to Pin, then the hogtie comes in pretty much free next round. Meanwhile a Grapple to Pin can also allow major damage from other group members, essentially making most encounters horrifically short. But, then again, the combos are pretty much the only thing they do well.
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The short summary of it is that MoMS is a little too good at bypassing certain prerequisites for style feats. For a 2 level dip, you can get style feats that would normally require level 6 or higher. Popular forum opinion seems to be that it's problematic.
The discussion mostly took place here.
Finally, the rules and design teams are discussing the fixes to make with MoMS. Until that time, we will not make any changes to it for PFS.
See post here.
This is more of a question for the design team than PFS. Just gotta wait it out, they'll let us know when a decision is made. Per the GtPFSOP, they'll probably allow some form of rebuild anyway.
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From what I have personally seen, the MoMS, with cut rope and enough grapple, can pretty much hog tie any foe in two rounds. Flurry of Maneuvers for Grapple to Pin, then the hogtie comes in pretty much free next round.
You're thinking of Maneuver Master, not Master of Many Styles.
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Someone in the other thread had a pretty good suggestion. If the first two levels of MoMS only allow bypassing prerequisites for the entry style feats (ie Snake Style, Crane Style, Monkey Style, etc), and then every bonus feat earned at 6th and after bypassed requirements as normal, it might be a minimal rework that would discourage the 2 level dip.
Though that's a pretty significant nerf of the bonus feat, as then it would basically no longer bypass monk level requirements for the more advanced style feats.
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I think it's terrible class design for the MoMS to be able to take a feat that would normally require level 15 at level one. The Sohei has the same problem while we're at it, but 90% of the people taking Sohei aren't dipping to pick up mounted skirmisher at level 1.
Bypassing requirements isn't broken. Rangers have been able to bypass feat requirements since core. I use Improved precise shot as my goal post here. It's a feat that normally requires bab 11. Rangers get it at level 6.
If rangers have to wait until 6th level to pick up IPS, then MomS should have to wait until 6th level to pick up crane wing. If they did have to wait that long, perhaps it wouldn't have been nerfed.
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From what I have personally seen, the MoMS, with cut rope and enough grapple, can pretty much hog tie any foe in two rounds. Flurry of Maneuvers for Grapple to Pin, then the hogtie comes in pretty much free next round.You're thinking of Maneuver Master, not Master of Many Styles.
Yes, I got the two mixed up for a second there..... After reading up more on the Many Styles, I have to say.... Just wow...
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It would still be able to have multiple styles at once which is supposed to be its niche, not early access to master a single style. Limiting the bonus feats at levels 1 and 2 to elemental fist or entry style feats does nothing to limit the power of any single class moms from level 6 onward. It only effect one feat at second level.
I still think it's ine if the weakest archetypes for a single class monk as it is written, but it's not the worst one by a long shot. That's a monk of the healing hand.
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Imbicatus, it doesn't matter what you think about the Monk of the Healing Hand. Undone has already decided that MoMS would be worse than an archetype that does literally nothing. Unless you can prove that an archetype gives up something awesome for something not even marginally useful, he'll never agree with you.
Who am I kidding. He wouldn't agree with you even then.
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I don't actually think it's broken but I do feel it constricts design space. You can't make 15+ level style feats or even 11+ level style feats because it exists.Why is it being discussed?Because people think, wrongly, that skipping pre-reqs for feats is teh broxxxars.
considering that, generally, no feat is more powerful than another already? there's no space constriction at all. The fact that when most people use MoMS to grab the first then third style feats and almost never grab the middle, says more about the quality of the middle style feats than the power of MoMS.
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considering that, generally, no feat is more powerful than another already?
I have to respectfully disagree there. I shall quickly rattle off a small handful of feats that have little opposition in terms of power aside from others on said list:
Animal Soul, Clustered Shots, Dazing Spell, Divine Protection, Raging Brutality, Persistent Spell, Sacred Geometry.
there's no space constriction at all. The fact that when most people use MoMS to grab the first then third style feats and almost never grab the middle, says more about the quality of the middle style feats than the power of MoMS.
I am inclined to believe that it speaks to both aspects, and both should be considered carefully as separate entities, as well as in combination. To do otherwise would not provide a very illuminated broad picture.
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considering that, generally, no feat is more powerful than another already?I have to respectfully disagree there. I shall quickly rattle off a small handful of feats that have little opposition in terms of power aside from others on said list:
Animal Soul, Clustered Shots, Dazing Spell, Divine Protection, Raging Brutality, Persistent Spell, Sacred Geometry.
man it's like that word "Generally" doesn't exist. ah well, not like missing an important word isn't a time honored tradition in this hobby.
there's no space constriction at all. The fact that when most people use MoMS to grab the first then third style feats and almost never grab the middle, says more about the quality of the middle style feats than the power of MoMS.I am inclined to believe that it speaks to both aspects, and both should be considered carefully as separate entities, as well as in combination. To do otherwise would not provide a very illuminated broad picture.
Almost all feat evaluations are based on resources in to effect out. MoMS makes many style feats resource efficient, because no one wants to take Combat Expertise, improved trip, improved repositon just to knock someone down with pummeling style. Almost all the style feats have easy to acquire pre-reqs for the first, a bazillion for the second with a very underwhelming benefit, and the first two style feats for number 3 which is often decent. So you grab the two you want and move on, and grabbing the missing one later if you want it. Simply put, most style feats just aren't worth it without MoMs reducing the resource cost.
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man it's like that word "Generally" doesn't exist. ah well, not like missing an important word isn't a time honored tradition in this hobby.
I did not miss the word. Generally typically means "most cases". I do not believe that "most" feats are balanced against each other. My specific examples were listed to highlight that "general" imbalance.
Edit: To clarify slightly, my opinion is that most feats (as in more than half) are in no way shape or form worth using your limited resource of feat count on in comparison to the other, better feats.
other part
I do not necessarily disagree with that, but I also do not see how that fact waives the need to consider the simple strength of ignoring those pre-reqs to begin with.
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Man, it's like feats aren't "generally" the same power level and most have prerequisites for a reason.
actually most have a prerequisite for NO reason, outside of the d20 system tendency to want you to feel like you are building towards something. 90% of all prereqs could be dumped and the game wouldn't even notice.
Edit: To clarify slightly, my opinion is that most feats (as in more than half) are in no way shape or form worth using your limited resource of feat count on in comparison to the other, better feats.
never said they were at an acceptable power level, just that they are mostly the same; utter useless crap.