"They are singling out attractive women", as you say, Haladir. Which is it?
And of course, those are the people who complain and consider themselves assaulted (!!!) because of glances.
We're not talking about being looked at. We're talking about verbal harrassment. Big difference.
I don't recall anyone asserting that being looked at was tantamount to assault. Let's not get carried away here.
Humanity contains morons. In other news, water is wet. As you say, it's more if you're particularly attractive. And of course, those are the people who complain and consider themselves assaulted (!!!) because of glances.
Everyone has morons in their lives. At school, at work, in the streets outside, every single place has them. We all have to relate to them somehow. But even if the world would be better without morons, guess what, it's not going to happen. The solutions touted don't work. Considering looking at someone to be assault is monstrous, and any law to such effect would be either ridiculed to death or a travesty of justice beyond anything ever seen before. Getting other men to help call out attention to it, well, in a world where people shout "fire!" to get people to come to help deal with a burglar, people regularly get beaten and sometimes even killed because they ended up in an argument... that isn't really going to be an option. I am sure it would feel great to one of the women who got ASSAULTED by someone's looks to have some man she didn't know protest against the look and get beaten for it.
People being looked at aren't being assaulted. They are likely exaggerating. Along with that, the people that are indignant that their very rights are being infringed on because they aren't being allowed to greet every woman on the street in the hopes that they are their One True Love are probably exaggerating as well. I hope so, at least.
Perhaps if we meet in the middle, maybe not overreact to looks, maybe refrain from getting ones feelings hurt when it is suggested that people aren't interested in holding a conversation with you on the street, it might make the situation a little more bearable.
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Precisely. No harm, no foul.
This thread started with people being annoyed at catcalls, and, yes, looks. The suggestion was that other men should do something about it. No other suggestions have been given to my knowledge. Considering how infeasible that suggestion is, I think we're ready to conclude that we really don't have a plan. I doubt anyone wants to make a law about any part of it.
Lots of people want to solve every issue there is, usually without understanding the issues. The second of the gobbo's two links back on page 1 was pretty clear on what the first portrayed: Unemployed black and latino men harassing a white woman. Perhaps these men should apply for work as greeters at Wal-Mart?
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You know what makes me just as mad as women being harrassed on the street? Yuppie liberal feminist gentrifiers employing the myth of the black rapist.
Indeed.
Luckily this sort of thing is pretty rare down here in Australia - I can't think of a time when I have heard some random guy carry on like the men in this video - except perhaps late on a friday night in the red light district at 2am when all the drunks get turfed out onto the street and start their journey home.
Every time I read these threads it makes so happy to be Australian, even if we have a moron for a PM....
I would love to see a few of these people spend a day in Rome and watch their heads explode....
"Caio Bella", "Che Bella" .....
I don't recall if I've ever 'fessed up to it, but I got my "Goblins do it in the streets" tagline from an article about the turn-of-the-last-century Sicilian author, Giovanni Verga, that concluded "Italians do it in the street."
Goblins do it in the streets! (But we don't catcall, and we especially don't catcall women wearing their "biznitchfaces.")
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Something else to consider: even if the interaction is momentary and nonverbal, you are still constantly interacting with people on the street, even in crowded cities. If everyone completely ignored everyone else (which seems to be what many are advocating), then pedestrians would constantly be walking into one another, and being run over by cars and bicycles, trampled, and no one would ever get anywhere. So, for people advocating non-interaction, you really need to specify "no verbal interaction."
However, that cuts out asking for directions; warning of unsafe conditions up ahead; alerting someone that they have dropped an item; saying a simple "excuse me" when you move aside for someone in an especially crowded space; and any number of other situations in which verbal interaction is useful. So, for people advocating no verbal interaction, you really need to specify "no catcalling or other interaction specifically geared towards creeping out women." And that's exactly where we are -- pretty much everyone knows it's uncool, and pretty much everyone in the thread is against it, and yet real-life people still do it in some places.
So what's your solution? Do you make it illegal? Please draft the wording of a law that would prohibit catcalls and still allow any of the above.
I would very much like for all catcalling to stop. But I tend to feel that this might take feasible solutions, and not just a bunch of empty whining and finger-pointing by the Social Justice Crusaders.
Re: no one in the Northeast U.S. greeting anyone else: I live in Pittsburgh. A lot of "Yinzers" greet each other, especially when sports team attire is worn: see someone with a Pirates jersey, you call "Go Bucks!"
Re: no one in Boston ever greeting anyone else, last time I was in Beantown, a guy I passed on the sidewalk said, "Man, you look happy! Hope my day's that good!" I did not think he was a lunatic. I did not report him to the police. No one else did, either. I replied, "I'll cross my fingers for you!" and he smiled and waved. It made my day. His, too.
That said, I'm finding in a lot of places -- north or south, urban or suburban, people are very pointedly ignoring one another even when this creates difficulties. So I'm unconvinced that legislating an "other people don't exist" attitude is the best solution.
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How about,
Short of an actual legitimate reason to interact with you in the street, ie dropped wallet, warning you of danger, or a similar genuine need (not based on needing you), people simply keep their comments and 'greetings' to themselves.
I note that in Australia we dont seem to have the problem with catcalling anymore, it is a throwback to the 80's that would be roundly rejected by people these days. That said, when walking on a sidewalk where two people are PASSING each other (ie on a quiet street) it is not uncommon to exchange a pleasantry - such as an expression of acknowledgement or a polie 'morning'. This is to be polite, and is certainly NOT an invitation to further discussion. Commonly used when joggers pass each other as well - a practical way to note each others trajectory and avoid a collision.
This "Oh so now I cant sexually harras you means no one is allowed to say a word" hands thrown in the air stuff is pretty naff.
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How about, Short of an actual legitimate reason to interact with you in the street, ie dropped wallet, warning you of danger, or a similar genuine need (not based on needing you), people simply keep their comments and 'greetings' to themselves.
That's the wording of your proposed law? Presumably you're not a member of the bar.
It's not an Australia thing: everyone in the U.S. pretty much knows that catcalls are totally not okay, but some mouth-breathing cretins in some places persist in doing it. I'm looking for actual feasible solutions to prevent that. If one simply challenges the perpetrator to fisticuffs, one generally gets assault charges.
This thread is full of cries of "people shouldn't do that!" Well, I agree completely. People shouldn't do that. But when I ask how to realistically prevent them, the only reply I get is "well, they just shouldn't!"
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I think I will continue my greetings, salutations
The verbal ones are.....
"Sir"
"Mam"
"Morning"
"Evening"Don't call me "sir!" I work for a living.Anything can be offensive in the wrong context.
Or to someone looking to be offended
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My Camille Paglia quote from above was done from memory and, thus, was nowhere near as nuanced as what she actually said:
Interesting. I've heard that Paglia is sometimes considered controversial among feminists, I wonder if it's because she gets icky class issues on her politics?
Good point, though, that hadn't occurred to me before.
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How about, Short of an actual legitimate reason to interact with you in the street, ie dropped wallet, warning you of danger, or a similar genuine need (not based on needing you), people simply keep their comments and 'greetings' to themselves.That's the wording of your proposed law? Presumably you're not a member of the bar.
It's not an Australia thing: everyone in the U.S. pretty much knows that catcalls are totally not okay, but some mouth-breathing cretins in some places persist in doing it. I'm looking for actual feasible solutions to prevent that. If one simply challenges the perpetrator to fisticuffs, one generally gets assault charges.
This thread is full of cries of "people shouldn't do that!" Well, I agree completely. People shouldn't do that. But when I ask how to realistically prevent them, the only reply I get is "well, they just shouldn't!"
You don't need a law. Just don't stand by quietly when someone breaks the social contract.
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I honestly dont think were going to make much progress arguing this here not only are some people going to have completly diffrent perspectives due to the country there from the perspective can change simpy from what part of the country your from. (Outside of obvious stuff like catcalls and really inappropriate comments which I think most people would agree is a no-no.)
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then pedestrians would constantly be walking into one another, and being run over by cars and bicycles, trampled, and no one would ever get anywhere. So, for people advocating non-interaction, you really need to specify "no verbal interaction."
When I went down to see the daily show that seemed to be the rule. Even walking on the right, with my shoulder up against the building people seemed to think i was somehow going to get narrower just because they were passing by.
Oh well. Physics is with me...
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You don't need a law. Just don't stand by quietly when someone breaks the social contract.
Let me know how that works out for you.
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Goblins do it in the streets! (But we don't catcall, and we especially don't catcall women wearing their "biznitchfaces.")
It has been brought to my attention by the Anklebiter Woman's Caucus that this is a flagrantly untrue statement and I apologize for contributing to the rape culture of silence around the oppression of goblin women.
I did, however, find another video about sexual harassment that went viral a while back.
Interesting. I've heard that Paglia is sometimes considered controversial among feminists, I wonder if it's because she gets icky class issues on her politics?
Well, to be fair to the noncontroversial feminists, although since they make videos like this racist piece of shiznit I don't see why I should be, she's said things much, much ickier than that.
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A big problem seems to be that the two ideas got merged.
Making inappropriate advances (like catcalling)
and
All advances are inappropriate
The first is a tautology: inappropriate advances are inappropriate. The question is what to do about them?
The second is a lot trickier. While they're annoying in aggregate, none of the individuals are doing anything wrong.
Went back to Slate and ran into:
White Men Don't Catcall. They Harass In Other Ways.
I wish people would call out the "Protect the Honor of White Women!"hood of that Hollaback vid a bit harder (maybe I should see if Black Agenda Report's written anything?) but this is pretty good:
"For all men, harassment of women has more to do with establishing power than it does sexual interest; they do it to control space, both public (the very street you both walk on) and personal (a woman’s self-set boundaries). Men of color catcall vocally and visibly on the sidewalk because they have to—not that there’s ever excuse for harassment. They need the “Sexy!” and “Smile!” to create the illusion of dominance in shared public spaces that social constructs and institutional racism have never afforded them control over.
"White men, on the other hand, have no use for that sort of catcalling. They marked their territory centuries ago."
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That, of course, is not to say that white men don’t have their own predatory nature—one that is expressed in ways unique to their privilege.
Holy...
If there is a valid point to be had, its incredibly hard to take seriously from the same person that says this.