Tumor Familiar Size


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'm pretty sure this is kosher, but figured I'd check here and get opinions. I can build as a Tattooed sorcerer, but Tumor Familiar Bloodrager is cooler.

Can you take a Small Tumor familiar?

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Benefit: The alchemist creates a Diminutive or Tiny tumor on his body, usually on his back or stomach. As a standard action, the alchemist can have the tumor detach itself from his body as a separate creature vaguely resembling a kind of animal suitable for a familiar (bat, cat, and so on) and move about as if it were an independent creature. The tumor can reattach itself to the alchemist as a standard action. The tumor has all the abilities of the animal it resembles (for example, a batlike tumor can fly) and familiar abilities based on the alchemist’s caster level (though some familiar abilities may be useless to an alchemist). The tumor acts as the alchemist’s familiar whether attached or separated (providing a skill bonus, the Alertness feat, and so on). When attached to the alchemist, the tumor has fast healing 5. An alchemist’s extracts and mutagens are considered spells for the purposes of familiar abilities like share spells and deliver touch spells. If a tumor familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced 1 week later through a specialized procedure that costs 200 gp per alchemist level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete.

But it was printed in 2011, when *all* (non-Improved Familiar) Familiars were Tiny or Diminutive, before Animal Archive (2013) introduced the small Familiars (Pig, Goat, Dwarf Caiman) and said:

Animal Archive wrote:
Some of these familiars break some of the rules and assumptions of the familiars presented in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook. Small familiars threaten the areas around them just like other Small creatures do, and can be used to flank enemies, though both familiars and their masters are often loath to use such tactics, as the result tends to be a dead familiar.

This came after the Tumor Familiar writeup, and seems to explicitly add small familiars as legal choices.

Improved Familiar clearly 1) works with Tumor Familiars, and 2) Allows Small familiars as well. So I'm assuming the "Tiny or Diminutive animal" line is basically vestigial.


I actually think you're wrong (RAW-wise) on both counts.

Improved Familiar requires an "Arcane Caster Level" (which the Alchemist does not have), and Tumor Familiar clearly limits the size of your Familiar to Diminutive or Tiny.

The first may not be RAI, but the second likely is. Somehow I doubt the intent was for a tumor the size of a Halfling attached to the Alchemist.

Grand Lodge

The Non-arcane caster Improved Familiar question has never been answered.

Why couldn't they FAQ this, instead of other horrible FAQ's?

Grand Lodge

Here is where SKR clarifies that the Tumor Familiar counts as a familiar for feats. The arcane caster pre-req is a separate issue. I'm thinking of this for a Bloodrager, so Arcane Caster level isn't an issue.

RAI for Tumor familiar is hard to say, as it was just restating a general statement about familiars at the time (they were all Tiny or Diminutive animals.) It seems clear that the RAI from Animal Archive was to add Small familiars even though it breaks previous rules/assumptions.

Edit: blackbloodtroll, I agree! I'd love a very simple FAQ saying shamans/monkey druids/anyone with "effective wizard levels" fulfills the pre-req.

Grand Lodge

A Tumor familiar can be of any size.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Tumor familiar can be of any size.

Source?

Because it clearly says "Diminutive or Tiny". So RAW, definitely no.

RAI/Fluff-wise it seems off that a tumor can potentially be the same size as the Alchemist's body (if he is also Small).

Is there a clarification somewhere?


where are you getting that from BBT? I'd love for that to be correct, but the discovery says tiny or diminutive. So I'm curious as to what overrides that line.


I have a question, was Improved Familiar released before or after Alchemists existed?

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Tumor familiar can be of any size.

Source?

Because it clearly says "Diminutive or Tiny". So RAW, definitely no.

RAI/Fluff-wise it seems off that a tumor can potentially be the same size as the Alchemist's body (if he is also Small).

Is there a clarification somewhere?

Well, for a Improved Tumor Familiar, why would the specifics of the feat granted familiar, not override the general rules of the Tumor Familiar?

Specific>General, yes?

Grand Lodge

HyperMissingno wrote:
I have a question, was Improved Familiar released before or after Alchemists existed?

Before.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
A Tumor familiar can be of any size.

Source?

Because it clearly says "Diminutive or Tiny". So RAW, definitely no.

RAI/Fluff-wise it seems off that a tumor can potentially be the same size as the Alchemist's body (if he is also Small).

Is there a clarification somewhere?

Well, for a Improved Tumor Familiar, why would the specifics of the feat granted familiar, not override the general rules of the Tumor Familiar?

Specific>General, yes?

Improved Familiar is a separate matter (that replaces your current Familiar).

What the OP and I are talking about is small sized non-Improved Familiars (Pig, Goat, Dwarf Caiman).

Grand Lodge

Improved Familiar was a cut and paste from 3.5, so pre-dates everything. If it had actually been written by Paizo, we can hope it would have been clearer.

Rynjin, as I read it the Animal Archive overrides it, as I quoted "these break some rules and assumptions."

If Improved familiar allows Small Tumor Familiars by adding more options, I can't see why Animal Archive explicitly adding more options wouldn't also allow it. But I wanted a gut check. :)

Grand Lodge

The small sized base familiars came after Tumor Familiar Discovery.

So, for now, the base needs to be Diminutive or Tiny, as per RAW.

Now, for having a small familiar from another class, and a Tumor Familiar, that is another story.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
HyperMissingno wrote:
I have a question, was Improved Familiar released before or after Alchemists existed?
Before.

Okay, so the arcane caster level requirement is probably a holdover and less of an "alchemists can't have this" thing.

Grand Lodge

So BBTroll, you think a level 1 Bloodrager with a Goat tumor is out, but a level 5 Bloodrager with a Small Earth Elemental tumor is kosher? I may just use some other familiar class instead, at least until lvl 5.

Grand Lodge

I would go with a Greensting Scorpion, or Compsognathus, then get the Improved Familiar at 5th.

Just to be on the safe side.


Markov Spiked Chain wrote:


Rynjin, as I read it the Animal Archive overrides it, as I quoted "these break some rules and assumptions."

And then goes on to list those exact assumptions, which are that Familiars can't flank and don't occupy a square.

Grand Lodge

It's under the heading "Small and Vermin familiars" it's clear they meant having a Small familiar breaks the rules and assumptions.

BBTroll, I assume Greensting Scorpion isn't a legal choice for a Tumor Familiar either, as the tumor familiar description specifies animal, and Greensting Scorpion is vermin.

It's the exact same issue as the Tiny/Diminutive clause, either Animal Archive adds both small and vermin as legal options or it adds neither, right?

Grand Lodge

they have removed the word arcane from the PRD

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html

Improved Familiar
This feat allows you to acquire a powerful familiar, but only when you could normally acquire a new familiar.

Prerequisites: Ability to acquire a new familiar, compatible alignment, sufficiently high level (see below).
Benefit: When choosing a familiar, the creatures listed below are also available to you. You may choose a familiar with an alignment up to one step away on each alignment axis (lawful through chaotic, good through evil).
Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level
Celestial hawk1 Neutral good 3rd
Dire rat Neutral 3rd
Fiendish viper2 Neutral evil 3rd
Elemental, Small (any type) Neutral 5th
Stirge Neutral 5th
Homunculus3 Any 7th
Imp Lawful evil 7th
Mephit (any type) Neutral 7th
Pseudodragon Neutral good 7th
Quasit Chaotic evil 7th
1 Or other celestial animal from the standard familiar list.
2 Or other fiendish animal from the standard familiar list.
3 The master must first create the homunculus.
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).


"Familiar Alignment Arcane Spellcaster Level"


I read tumor familiar as the tumor being tiny or small and then kind of unfolding to the size of the familiar when it leaves the host body. Kind of like the vertigal rebel leader in total recall exept he dosent leave the host body.

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