This is something I've put a lot of thought into over the years and the answer is yes. Yes you can.
Specifically because it doesn't say that you can't. Unless a weapon specifies that you're not allowed to use it in two hands (like the rapier, or a light weapon) you can wield a one-handed weapon in two hands. A heavy shield is a martial one-handed weapon, and it doesn't say that you can't.
How are you gripping it? Well one would assume that it's being worn as normal heavy shield would be and the other hand is... grabbing on somewhere to give it some umph!
You could also technically use a large-sized heavy shield as a two-handed weapon at a -2 penalty (because of how the rules for weapons and size categories work) and to be perfectly honest I haven't found a rule that states using an inappropriately sized shield would penalize you in any way for AC or armor check penalties.
For size categories... a medium sized heavy shield does 1d4 damage with a bash. Shield spikes increase the damage by 1 size category to 1d6. The bashing enchantment increases the damage by 2 size categories to 1d8 and then 2d6. Assuming you start with a large size heavy shield rather than a medium size you're now going up by 4 size categories from the normal heavy shield bash value, to 3d6. Let's enlarge person you. Now you're at 5 size categories larger, at which point you've broken the table.
According to the size increase table there's nothing listed for 3d6 to increase to, but if we know that 2d6 increases to 3d6 when you go up by one size category we just need to find something else that is 2d6 and then go up by 2, right? Well 2d6 listed for tiny size lists 2d10 (2-20) as the medium size equivalent, which seems not quite right at all considering that the large is 4d8 (4-32) and before raising the size we were at 3d6 (3-18).
Damn these tables. They should really take +5 size category modifiers into account.
Conveniently, that heavy shield now Huge size, weighs 75 lbs, and is (if the descriptor of enlarge person is correct in that your size doubles) probably about 6 feet x 6 feet. You're now bashing someone with the side of a barn.
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Conveniently, that heavy shield now Huge size, weighs 75 lbs, and is (if the descriptor of enlarge person is correct in that your size doubles) probably about 6 feet x 6 feet. You're now bashing someone with the side of a barn.
Assuming that you put spikes on it - you're technically stabbing someone with the side of a barn. :P
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Don't forget Shield Trained so now your Heavy Shield counts a light weapon and you can use a Huge Heavy Shield as a 2-handed weapon (with a -4 penalty, but still).
That would actually be bad for him, as a light weapon, he would receive less strength bonus or power attack bonus.
Ugh, strict RAW is just awful sometimes.
Just a niggling little rules lawyering:
Shield spikes are not a shield bash, and would not stack with the bashing weapon property.
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Ugh, strict RAW is just awful sometimes.
Houserule double swords, and dire flails out, because those things don't work in real life.
Now, the shield, a history shown viable weapon, that is a problem?
A shield is not some cinderblock they chain to a mentally handicapped person's foot.
It is absolutely, a weapon.
Why the hell can't I get this into people's heads?
I show them historical evidence, and nothing.
I point to popular media, like the new Captain America movies, still nothing.
What the freaking hell?
Don't forget Shield Trained so now your Heavy Shield counts a light weapon and you can use a Huge Heavy Shield as a 2-handed weapon (with a -4 penalty, but still).That would actually be bad for him, as a light weapon, he would receive less strength bonus or power attack bonus.
It would... if it were actually a light weapon.
But because it counts as a light weapon that means a huge heavy shield is a light weapon for a huge creature, or a one-handed weapon for a large creature, or a two-handed weapon for a medium creature.
It bumps him up to +6 size categories worth of damage (albeit at a -4 attack penalty).
Assuming he's still an Enlarged person, double the size of that huge heavy shield to 12 feet x 12 feet and using the table for size modifiers it now goes up to 15 lbs (for a steel shield) x8 = 120 lbs. Damage is now 2 tiers above 3d6 (I think in 3.5 this jumped to 6d6).
It basically makes up for the lack of monkey grip.
And TECHNICALLY it's not a tower shield so you can bash with it, but it's TECHNICALLY multiple times the size of one yet you still can't use it to provide cover.
I could have sworn the rules were rather punishing for trying to use oversized weapons, even if you had the right feats or if you were, say, a halfling two-handing a human-sized longsword.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
According to the rules on it, you take a cumulative -2 penalty for each size category adjustment (so going from a light weapon designed for huge creatures to a two-handed weapon designed for medium creatures is 2 adjustments, or a -4 penalty).
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Well if you found a way to say drop the shield on your turn and be able to pick it up with a swift action via weapon cord then you have a giant metal shield sitting between you and the enemies ranged attacks while it's not your turn so I'm pretty sure that counts as full cover. Also be the shield thrower brawler with this just so you can ricochet a barn door off of people then catch it on the rebound.
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Well if you really want to be silly about it...
A blinkback belt makes a thrown weapon teleport instantly back to you (on the belt) so that it can be drawn and used again (assuming you have quickdraw).
The quickdraw feat allows you to don a quickdraw shield as a free action.
+50g cost modification to a shield makes it into a throwing shield, which allows you to throw it as a free action.
Free action + Free action + Free action = MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUD AMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMU DAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAM UDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA MUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDAMUDA until you feel like stopping.
A shield is a weapon.
By RAW shields are armor! All related rules for shields are found unter the topic 'Armor' in the CRB oder UE! Even the 'Shield bash attack' and 'Armore Spike' rules are found under the topic 'Armor'. This rules refer to the weapon tables but thats it!
Shields are armor that can be used as weapons by PF RAW!
There are no rules for 'Inappropriately Sized Armor' so you cannot use such armors / shields.
A shield is armor by PF RAW.
If there are no rules for it, saying "you can't do it" doesn't fall under the rules. There is not a rule against or supporting it so technically you can do it. RAW.
A shield bash is a martial weapon attack. Therefore a shield is a martial weapon if it is used for bashing. RAW.
Can you attack with a shield ? Yes
Can you enchant a shield as a weapon ? Yes
Can you use weapon related feats with a shield ? Yes
Can you use it with TWF or THF ? Yes
Is a shield a weapon? No
You want to fight with a shield because it is a martial weapon and on the weapon table. In addtion you want the shield bonus to armor because it is a shield and on the armor table. Whats up ? Is it now a weapon or an armor or both ? Ahhhh correct it is both.
A shield is an armor that can be used as a weapon.
And a scizore (sp?) is a weapon that gives a shield bonus. It's not specifically a shield so you can't use shield related feats with it, but because it gives a shield bonus there's nothing specifically that says you can't put an enhancement bonus on the shield AC part.
It honestly doesn't matter whether or not the shield is considered a weapon or armor, because it functions as both and can be treated as both.
It is considered a weapon for all applicable purposes when you are making as bash attack with it. It is considered a shield at all other times (I'm not going to say considered an armor, since armor and shields are different things).
There are easily applied rules for size adjustments on weapons (such as the shield is treated as when making a bash attack).
The only place I can find that mentions size rules on armor is under full-plate which says it needs to be individually fitted to the owner (even if the previous owner is medium size and the new owner is medium size). Shields also do not use exactly the same rules as armor, so that's twice the amount of not rules there are.
So even assuming that a shield cannot be used to provide a shield bonus if it is not sized to the user, it would still function perfectly fine as a weapon.
All rules for the scizore are found under 'Weapons' so a scizore is a weapon that gives you a shield bonus. Is it a shield ? No. Why not ? There are no rules for it.
PF follows rules that say what you can do and what is allowed.
Back to shields .. There are rules for 'Inappropriately Sized Weapons' but no rules for inappropriately sized armor. You can carry inappropriately sized armor around and wield it as an improvised weapon but thats it.
Sure you can split up the shield into a 'shield' part and a 'weapon' part but that is not legal by RAW because a shield is an armor that can be used as a weapon. If you cannot use a shield you cannot shield bash.
Btw. a large heavy shield has the same size and weight as a medium tower shield. With a tower shield you cannot shield bash by RAW.
Feel free to make your own rules but RAW is RAW. You can do a lot of things with shields and i dont like some of them but shields are armor that can be used as a weapon.
Can you attack with a shield ? Yes
Can you enchant a shield as a weapon ? Yes
Can you use weapon related feats with a shield ? Yes
Can you use it with TWF or THF ? Yes
Is a shield a weapon? No
Can i use inappropriately sized shields? No
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You can actually not enhance a shield with weapon properties. Bashing is an armour property. I'm wary of saying that "Ain't no rule" is a justification of oversized shields, because as far as I can tell they are treated as armour except in the cases of making attacks with them.
Before blackbloodtroll jumps on me, I'm absolutely in favour of shield bashes being a great tactic (and it's arguably what made Roman infantry formations so deadly). The thing that gives me pause is the oversized aspect.
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You can actually not enhance a shield with weapon properties. Bashing is an armour property.Arguably - but you can definitely enhance the shield's spikes.
True. In which case you should be looking at large-sized shield spikes. And I have no idea if those fit on a medium-sized shield, but I'm still hesitant to accept "Ain't no rule" as the end of the discussion.
You can actually not enhance a shield with weapon properties. Bashing is an armour property.
Not quite true.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So you can have a shield that gives +2 AC and is also enchanted to be a +1 weapon, you just tally the costs separately.
-TimD
I recall Tyrion Lannister killing some guy while using an oversized shield two-handed. I guess just because it works on HBO doesn't mean it will work in PFS, but I don't see any rules problem here.
As far as enchanting a shield as a weapon goes, the rules say
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See “shield, light” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Those rules don't state or in my opinion imply that you need to add spikes to make the shield a magic weapon. The rules for shield spikes actually say that they turn the shield itself into a piercing weapon
Benefit: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
I don't really have an opinion yet on whether or not you can wear an oversized shield to gain a shield bonus. It seems like you could probably use it as a weapon though.
Heavy Shields are on the weapons table under martial weapons, weapons have rules for inappropriately sized versions of them and a table that shows how much damage they'd do.
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You can actually not enhance a shield with weapon properties. Bashing is an armour property.Not quite true.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
So you can have a shield that gives +2 AC and is also enchanted to be a +1 weapon, you just tally the costs separately.
-TimD
Ooh, thanks! I wasn't aware of that!
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Ugh, strict RAW is just awful sometimes.
Houserule double swords, and dire flails out, because those things don't work in real life.
Now, the shield, a history shown viable weapon, that is a problem?
A shield is not some cinderblock they chain to a mentally handicapped person's foot.
It is absolutely, a weapon.
Why the hell can't I get this into people's heads?
I show them historical evidence, and nothing.
I point to popular media, like the new Captain America movies, still nothing.
What the freaking hell?
It's not like there is an entire Talhoffer manual about fighting with two handed shields. Oh wait, there is.
I'm wary of saying that "Ain't no rule" is a justification of oversized shields, because as far as I can tell they are treated as armour except in the cases of making attacks with them.
And I'm definitely in agreement on that part. Not having a rule about it doesn't really lend credence to the idea one way or another, it simply means that we don't have anything to base our opinions and house rulings on other than abstractions and drawing parallels.
However, using oversized weapons is very much a factual thing in the rules so without a doubt you could use an oversized shield as a two handed weapon to bash with. Whether or not it would provide an AC bonus when it's not appropriately sized for you is what's up in the air right now...
Also:
Btw. a large heavy shield has the same size and weight as a medium tower shield. With a tower shield you cannot shield bash by RAW.
Actually a medium tower shield (made of wood, as per the description on the item) is over FOUR times as heavy as a medium heavy wooden shield, or over TWICE as heavy as a large heavy wooden shield (not to mention 1.5x as heavy as a large heavy steel shield). At 45 lbs and made of wood a medium tower shield is closest to a huge heavy wooden shield (at 50 lbs) or a gargantuan light wooden shield (at 40 lbs).
Which is pretty much irrelevant anyway, considering that they are not the same item at all. Arguing that you can't make a bash with an oversized heavy shield because it's roughly the same dimensions as a tower shield is like arguing that you can make a bash with an oversized buckler because it's roughly the same dimensions as a heavy shield.
That's cool and all for a house rule, but the description of the item specifically says which types of shields can be used to make bash attacks and which cannot. You technically CAN still attack with a tower shield, but because it cannot be used to bash you're making an improvised weapon attack by slamming them with a door that you strapped onto your arm.
As it stands we're all trying to think this out and find rules that actually apply to this or approximations of other rules that would conceivably cover it. You are just shouting "no" over and over again and saying "because the rules don't specifically say that you can"... which is the same argument as "there's nothing specifically in the rules that says I can't do this".
And that's a terrible argument to make.
It's not like there is an entire Talhoffer manual about fighting with two handed shields. Oh wait, there is.Ugh, strict RAW is just awful sometimes.
Houserule double swords, and dire flails out, because those things don't work in real life.
Now, the shield, a history shown viable weapon, that is a problem?
A shield is not some cinderblock they chain to a mentally handicapped person's foot.
It is absolutely, a weapon.
Why the hell can't I get this into people's heads?
I show them historical evidence, and nothing.
I point to popular media, like the new Captain America movies, still nothing.
What the freaking hell?
To be fair, that's a shield specifically designed to be used in such a manner. AFAIK Pathfinder has no such item.
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To be fair, that's a shield specifically designed to be used in such a manner. AFAIK Pathfinder has no such item.
Pathfinder has exactly four types of a shields. Bucklers, Light Shields, Heavy Shields, and Tower Shields. Six if you include the Madu and the Klar.
There are easily 40 different real world shield types that have to fit into those four types. There is no reason to assume any given heavy shield isn't a talhoffer shield.
There's no reason to believe that all real-world shields are represented in Pathfinder. There are certainly plenty of weapons and armor that aren't. Most real-world shields that fit the Pathfinder description would not work well using the method described by the linked picture.
Never mind all this; RAW you can two-hand a shield. Just don't expect it to work at my table unless you unready the shield and use it as an improvised weapon.
Absolutely they are weapons. That's a long-settled debate, and few have issue with it once they note their presence on the weapons table and the passage on enhancing shields as weapons.
Don't look at me. Those weren't my threads. : )