Champion's Finesse and Whirling Dervish


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

For reference:

From the Daring Champion:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

Champion's Finesse (Ex)

At 1st level, a daring champion gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and he can use Charisma in place of Intelligence for the purpose of combat feats prerequisites. A daring champion also counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for the purpose of meeting feat requirements.

This ability replaces mount.

From the Whirling Dervish:

Advanced Class Origins wrote:

Dervish Dance (Ex)

At 4th level, a whirling dervish can use her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier on melee damage rolls when using her swashbuckler finesse. She counts as having the Dervish Dance feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

Would the combination, allow one to use dexterity for damage, with all Light, or One-handed Piercing weapons?

Lantern Lodge

The combination would allow it, EXCEPT, you don't need the combination to do it. A 4th Level Whirling Dervish archetype Swashbuckler can use dexterity for damage with all Light or One-handed Piercing weapons, not just Scimitars. I'm not sure why you're even mentioning the Cavalier archetype Daring Champion.

Dervish Finesse doesn't seem to take anything away from Swashbuckler Finesse, it just adds an additional ability (treat a Scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon if you don't use a shield or weapon in your off-hand). So you still have all of the capabilities of Swashbuckler Finesse which means you can use non-Scimitars.

Dervish Finesse (Ex)

A whirling dervish can treat a scimitar as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for the purposes of the swashbuckler's finesse and all feats and class abilities that refer to such a weapon. She must not be carrying a weapon or shield in her off hand to gain this benefit.

This ability alters swashbuckler finesse.

Notice it says "alters", not replaces. I guess someone can take the position that "can treat a scimitar as" replaces "gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons" in Swashbuckler Finesse, but I just don't read it that way.

So you could do a Whirling Dervish archetype Swashbuckler who uses a Rapier instead of a Scimitar. It further looks like you could do a Whirling Dervish who uses a rapier and dagger combo as the Whirling Dervish class abilities don't seem to be keyed to use of a Scimitar (except that the Dervish Dance feat is, so you wouldn't get that benefit if you don't use a Scimitar), and the empty off-hand requirement seems only to apply to using a Scimitar. When weapons are mentioned in the Whirling Dervish archetype, it doesn't say "Scimitar", it says "light or one-handed piercing melee weapon".

Grand Lodge

Ah, so the Dervish Dance ability of the Whirling Dervish, already applies to all Light and One-handed Piercing weapons, as well as the Scimitar?

Grand Lodge

Just to be sure, the Whirling Dervish, by it's self, at 4th level, would be able to get dex to damage, with all Light and One-handed Piercing weapons?

No dipping?

No extra feats?


Yup, Whirling Dervish gets Dex->damage on all normal swash weapons plus the scimitar.

Grand Lodge

Well, bloody hell.

Shadow Lodge

on a note Dervish Dance (Ex) and Champion's Finesse (Ex) dont combine since Dervish Dance (Ex) calls explicitely to work only with swashbuckler finesse. Minor point, since you get swashbuckler finesse anyway

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