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I have a player who is playing a cleric of Norgorber, who is NE. The player wants to be of a Neutral alignment. According to the core rulebook, page 166, that should be within 'one step' of NE, being one step 'up' on the alignment chart. However....I was browsing the PathfinderWiki and saw that priests of Norgorber can only be LE, NE, or CE. http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Norgorber
Is this true? Should I accept the information in the wiki over the core rules? Is the wiki incorrect? Or am I reading the alignment chart wrong? Is it written somewhere that priests of Norgorber can only be evil? I think my biggest concern is that i'm interpreting the alignment axis chart wrong. Thanks.
Take the specific over the general. In general, a cleric has to be within one step of his deity's alignment. But BigBooger here doesn't play that way. He declares, 'if you're not evil, you're not on my team'. So Norgorber will only accept LE, NE, or CE clerics. Other NE deities might not be as picky and will accept N clerics.
For him it is one step along the evil axis. It must be by RAW along the lawful/chaotic or Good/evil axis. As is the god of "God of greed, secrets, poison, and murder" that rules out CG so there for his clergy can not swing along the Lawful/chaotic axis and is then limited to Good/evil. So yes LE,NE.CE are his options.
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I have a player who is playing a cleric of Norgorber, who is NE. The player wants to be of a Neutral alignment. According to the core rulebook, page 166, that should be within 'one step' of NE, being one step 'up' on the alignment chart.
The core rules support it, both in the description of the Cleric class and in that chart on p 166.
The Wikia might be going under the 3.X assumption that a Cleric cannot be true Neutral unless their diety is also true Neutral (PHB p 30), but that rule was not carried over into Pathfinder (PFRPH p 39, for specifics).
In a discrepency between the core PFRPG and the Wikia, I'd side with the PFRPG, in any event, barring eratta, which this isn't (since there is no eratta for p 39).
ah but page 166 and the wiki agree. The cleric must be within one step of the lawful/chaotic or good/evil axis. He is a NE god of murder so that rules out CG as an option and being NE LE and CE are one step. The rules do support LE, AND,CE as one step from NE
If ya notice Asmodeus is LE and one step for his clergy is LN or NE they all use the chart on page 166 and follow the rules from page 39
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Also in the original SRD, there was the mention that true neutral was only for neutral gods... maybe they sniped that text but kept on using the rule:
"Alignment
A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral. "
that is gone now. But still by the rules Norgorber's clergy are limited to Evil only
Also note that the core book has rules for using the Pathfinder game system, but the data for Norgorber comes from a Golarion source, does it not? If it does, then the world source trumps the core rulebook.
To use an example from previous editions, paladins had to worship LG, LN, or NG deities. But Sune in the Realms had the occasional paladin yet was a CG deity. Specific info trumped the general. I'd find the original source for Norgorber.
An easy test make the chart
LG--NG--CG
LN--N---CN
LE--NE--CE
now look at your gods AL a good god can not have evil clergy and an evil god can not have good clergy. so circle your gods AL and go one step.
LG is LG,LN;NG
LN is LG,LN,LE,N
LE is LN,LE, NE
NG is LG,NG,CG, N
N is N,NG,NE,LN,CN
NE is LE,NE.CE, N
CG is NG,CG,CN
CN is CG,CN,CE,N
CE is CN,CE,NE
it is that simple. If ya notice neutral gods always have more varied AL clergy then good or evil gods.
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An easy test make the chart
LG--NG--CG
LN--N---CN
LE--NE--CEnow look at your gods AL a good god can not have evil clergy and an evil god can not have good clergy. so circle your gods AL and go one step.
LG is LG,LN;NG
LN is LG,LN,LE,N
LE is LN,LE, NENG is LG,NG,CG, N
N is N,NG,NE,LN,CN
NE is LE,NE.CECG is NG,CG,CN
CN is CG,CN,CE,N
CE is CN,CE,NEit is that simple.
If NG deity can have a N cleric, why can't a NE deity have a N cleric? also looking at the pathfinder wiki for Sarenrae (a NG goddess) it says that N clerics aren't allowed for her either. I'm thinking that the wiki is still under old 3.5 rules and haven't been updated to Pathfinder yet.
ya know NE should have N as well on the list if NG has N as well looking over my chart I made yep N should be there as it makes a glaring exception. But in this gods case I am not so sure as he is the god of murder.
And two folks posted as I was editing and posting this...:)
Also note that the core book has rules for using the Pathfinder game system, but the data for Norgorber comes from a Golarion source, does it not? If it does, then the world source trumps the core rulebook.
To use an example from previous editions, paladins had to worship LG, LN, or NG deities. But Sune in the Realms had the occasional paladin yet was a CG deity. Specific info trumped the general. I'd find the original source for Norgorber.
Note that neither the campaign setting nor Gods and Magic restricts Norgorber to only evil clerics. I checked several of the alignment charts on the wiki and found that some had a N allowed and some did not. I checked both NE and NG gods. So, it looks like these entries were done by different people, and at least one of those people is working under the old 3.5 rule restricting N clerics to N gods.
In using the Additional Rules alignment chart, it clearly allows NE gods to have LE, NE, CE, and N clerics by a strict application of the instructions ("Occasionally the rules refer to “steps” when dealing with alignment. In this case, “steps” refers to the number of alignment shifts between the two alignments, as shown on the following diagram. Note that diagonal “steps” count as two steps.").
My conclusion--a Neutral cleric of Norgorber is allowed.
I just edited the wiki page to allow Neutral clerics...note, this is one of the reasons you cannot trust a wiki as a definitive source of information, since anybody can change the data to anything...
Anti-paladin will be yes.
Well I think my questions have been answered then. A cleric of Norgorber can indeed be True Neutral. and it works well since the cleric is all about secrets and spying anyway vs murder, poison, ect. Thanks everyone!!!
Some faiths might just be hard to combine with a neutral alignment, if the priesthood demands regular evil acts of worship it could rule out a non-evil alignment. Personally I think such is the case here.
EDIT : I missed it was the wiki claiming it somehow, either way, it is perfectly acceptable for a deity to disallow / allow certain alignments where it differs from the core rules.
Well I think my questions have been answered then. A cleric of Norgorber can indeed be True Neutral. and it works well since the cleric is all about secrets and spying anyway vs murder, poison, ect. Thanks everyone!!!Some faiths might just be hard to combine with a neutral alignment, if the priesthood demands regular evil acts of worship it could rule out a non-evil alignment. Personally I think such is the case here
This is kinda my feeling as well. While N may be doable to most NE gods I am not so sure on this one. Kinda like Sarenrae not having good clergy I do not think a neutral one would last very long among her clergy if at all.Same with the god of murder, if your not willing to gleefully kill and murder why should he even grant your spells?
The more I think about it the more I think my chart is off
LG is LG,LN;NG
LN is LG,LN,LE,N
LE is LN,LE, NE
NG is LG,NG,CG,
N is N,NG,NE,LN,CN
NE is LE,NE.CE,
CG is NG,CG,CN
CN is CG,CN,CE,N
CE is CN,CE,NE
The Neutral aspects are the only ones that should also touch true neutral Like LN and CN NE and NG should not touch TN as then they would have to touch E/G as well
This is kinda my feeling as well. While N may be doable to most NE gods I am not so sure on this one. Kinda like Sarenrae not having good clergy I do not think a neutral one would last very long among her clergy if at all.Same with the god of murder, if your not willing to gleefully kill and murder why should he even grant your spells?Well I think my questions have been answered then. A cleric of Norgorber can indeed be True Neutral. and it works well since the cleric is all about secrets and spying anyway vs murder, poison, ect. Thanks everyone!!!Some faiths might just be hard to combine with a neutral alignment, if the priesthood demands regular evil acts of worship it could rule out a non-evil alignment. Personally I think such is the case here
I agree with this in general, but for specific game application this restriction should be noted in an official product. Barring that, core rules apply and I see no restriction.
For your chart, I'm not certain why you make a distinction that LN can have a N cleric but NG cannot? There is no mechanic restricting this option from anything I've read.
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I can't see a lot of non-evil followers of Father Skinsaw (since even a lawful executioner or professional butcher is a far cry from someone who would venerate the god of *murder*), and few of Blackfingers (again, even those who use poison for non-evil ends, such as exterminators and cosmeticians, a god of poison might be a little over the top), but the Reaper of Reputation (politics, lies and spies) and the Gray Master (patron of thieves) both seem like plausible aspects for a non-evil follower of Norgorber.
Coming up with non-evil followers of Asmodeus, Lamashtu, Rovagug, Urgathoa and Zon-Kuthon are only moderately harder to justify.
yes there is really,You may be one step by RAW along LAW/CHAOS OR Good/Evil. N is across both axis. LN,N,CN are one step from both LAW/CHAOS and Good/Evil as they all three are the pivot points . However NG and NE do not have that as they are not the midway points but at the ends , TN however is at the pivot point. If ya look at it all three Law/Chaos branches have a center a N pivot point. NG and NE only pivot along the good/evil axis as do LG,LE,CG and CE
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The chart on 166 doesn't just have rows, it also has columns, and 'steps' can go in either direction, or along either axis.
A worshippers of a neutral god (or a druid, for that matter) can be NG or NE, and a NG diety (such as Sarenrae) can have N clergy, while a NE diety (such as Norgorber) can also have N clergy. N is within 'one step' of NG or NE. There is an explicit rule that *diagonals* count as two steps, so that a cleric of Norgorber cannot be LN or CN, but none forbidden verticle steps.
I can accept that as a general rule a I can not accept some gods such as Sarenrae or Norgorber having N clerics . You can't stand on the side lines with the goddess like her or the god or murder which ya know prob call for ya to murder people on holy days. I just don't buy it.
Edit: yep
"They celebrate his Ascension in midwinter by snatching a random person from the street, bringing him to the temple, quietly murdering him with poison, then hiding the body where it will never be found." so the act of a non evil guy huh. Murdering random folks is never a pure N act and ya do it yearly kinda always puts ya at evil.
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"They celebrate his Ascension in midwinter by snatching a random person from the street, bringing him to the temple, quietly murdering him with poison, then hiding the body where it will never be found." so the act of a non evil guy huh. Murdering random folks is never a pure N act and ya do it yearly kinda always puts ya at evil.
There are four different churches of Norgorber, as I mentioned in my previous post. Father Skinsaw is the murder-god. Blackfingers is a god patronized by alchemists, herbalists and, yes, poisoners. The Reaper of Reputation is popular with liars, spies and politicians. The Gray Master is patron of thieves.
And those worshippers of NG Sarenrae? The dominant faith, practically the state religion, of the most slave-friendly nation on Avistan. Not all of them are sweetness and light...
If you want to house-rule that NG gods like Shelyn can't have Neutral clergy, and that NE gods like Norgorber also can't have Neutral clergy, that's your business, but it contradicts the rules on pages 39 and 166.
It also takes options away, and makes the game smaller, and choices less meaningful. That's rarely useful, IMO.
That one is for all his churches, it is his most holy day. Every church does that one, it is the only thing they seem to have in common. Setting always over rules the core, always.{Just like core says ya can have god-less cleric and setting says you can not} Settings often trump general rules. I am not saying all NE gods are limited but this one is.
If ya want to house rule murder of a random guy every year as non evil that's cool but as it stands he simply can not have N clerics unless planned ritual murder of innocents is not an evil act.
I am not saying he can not have non evil worshipers but his clergy must all commit murder at lest once a year.
{Just like core says ya can have god-less cleric and setting says you can not}:P
And who says all members of the church celebrate that holiday the same way? Do all members of real world churchs agree on holidays?
Pathfinder churches are more organized like the catholic church. Except in place of a pope you have a real god saying "do this on this day" And year gods and magic pretty much covers that
Now some gods may have different days and often churches will but it is a faith wide holiday marking the day he became a god. So yes all clergy do that one. Which is prob why N is out
Ya know, being Neutral does not mean you never do good or evil. It means you do enough of both to stay balanced in between. So the cleric murders someone once a year, but what if that person is a known criminal, like a murderer or rapist that got away from the authorities? You could even have an Andoran who is a Neutral cleric of Norgorber who once a year grabs and murders some evil slaver. So long as the cleric makes sure the victim is not a member of his faith, now that would piss off Norgorber if the wrong person was killed, huh?
I find it hard to believe that an entire religion of various secretive people all worship one holy day in the exact same way without even one person choosing not to commit murder.
I find it hard to believe that a god of murder[ or any god] would not without his power from any clergy that did not worship him enough to honor him with such an offering when he demanded it.
In a world where gods are fact and you can hear them speak to you, where they can send heralds and show displeasure you better damned well believe there are faith wide ritual that are done just as they are told they must be done always.
Gods expect clergy to follow the teaching and rituals they tell them to. You do not get a free ride to magic, you have to live by the teachings of your god and obey the gods edits.
Ya know, being Neutral does not mean you never do good or evil. It means you do enough of both to stay balanced in between. So the cleric murders someone once a year, but what if that person is a known criminal, like a murderer or rapist that got away from the authorities? You could even have an Andoran who is a Neutral cleric of Norgorber who once a year grabs and murders some evil slaver. So long as the cleric makes sure the victim is not a member of his faith, now that would piss off Norgorber if the wrong person was killed, huh?
The victim needs to be random, you don't pick them out before hand you pick some random person off the street. If you pick you have not done the ritual. You just murdered someone and still need to kill a random person you know nothing about.
This assumes that the gods talk to each and every one of their followers. I haven't read indepth, but I don't recall any mention of such a thing in any Golarion supplement.
Then cleric can never fall. Gods know when you brake faith or you can not fall. Not doing the most holy ritual is braking faith and at the lest would lead to some form of atonement. You can not follow and worship and be powered by a god and not follow that gods words and teachings. Some classes can do that, a cleric is not one of them.
Also on the talking, someone grants that gods spells to the cleric each day, either the god or one of his servants but yeah he is always connected on some level to those he invests power to.
You can not buy it all ya want. The book says they must murder. If they do not they simply are not his clergy. If your GM allows you to pick a god then ignore it's teaching and such without falling thats is on him but not how it's written.
Ya know, being Neutral does not mean you never do good or evil. It means you do enough of both to stay balanced in between. So the cleric murders someone once a year, but what if that person is a known criminal, like a murderer or rapist that got away from the authorities? You could even have an Andoran who is a Neutral cleric of Norgorber who once a year grabs and murders some evil slaver. So long as the cleric makes sure the victim is not a member of his faith, now that would piss off Norgorber if the wrong person was killed, huh?The victim needs to be random, you don't pick them out before hand you pick some random person off the street. If you pick you have not done the ritual. You just murdered someone and still need to kill a random person you know nothing about.
So the cleric could not pick someone known in advance as a "bad" person, but there is nothing to stop that Neutral cleric from going to a part of town where the overwhelming majority may be deserving of death and then picking a random person. After all, random means you did not plan in advance, not that you walk out to the middle of the market square, close your eyes, point in a direction, open your eyes, and grab the person you are pointing at.
Besides, reading your quote from the book again, it is not every priest or cleric of Norgorber that has to commit this murder. Each temple murders one single person once a year for this ceremony. So a Neutral cleric is probably not the one grabbing the person nor the one giving the poison, as I do not see a Neutral cleric ever becoming a high priest in this religion. So if all he is doing is witnessing or even just knowing about the murder, then there is plenty of good things that can be done to counter the evil committed and staying in balance.
Not Honoring you god and obeying his teaching is a gross violation. The book states that as his most holy day {The only one they even list}, so yeah that is a gross violation
Ya can run it how ya want but by the book they must take part in murder.
This is all in the sticky area of alignment, and the rules clearly place adjudication for that as a GM call:
In the end, the Game Master is the one who gets to decide if something's in accordance with its indicated alignment, based on the descriptions given previously and his own opinion and interpretation—the only thing the GM needs to strive for is to be consistent as to what constitutes the difference between alignments like chaotic neutral and chaotic evil. There's no hard and fast mechanic by which you can measure alignment—unlike hit points or skill ranks or Armor Class, alignment is solely a label the GM controls.
Given this, it seems readily apparent to me that having Neutral clerics serving Neutral Evil or Neutral Good gods is allowed by core rules and restricting this, while perhaps reasonable/logical, is ultimately up to the GM as a house rule. Barring source material stating this restriction explicitly, trying to "prove" anything else seems pointless to me.
The OP was the GM he was asking setting advice. Oft time setting outright over rules the core. But if he is fine with murdering N clerics it's his game, I just showed where it said they must murder, which was prob why it left N out.
Either way a N cleric prob be an oddity among the church.
My guess on why the Neutral clerics were left out is still the same--various people created those wiki articles and at least one of them was using the old 3.5 restrictions. I have since gone through all LN, CN, NG, and NE entries and corrected them to allow Neutral clerics. Every one of these alignments had a mix of allowing and not allowing Neutral clerics, with the only discernible pattern being source, e.g all of the dwarven gods were set to allow Neutral, while all of the Four Horsemen were not. This suggests to me that someone entered all the dwarven gods and used the PRPG rules, while someone else entered the Four Horsemen and used the 3.4 rules.
I did check Gods and Magic before doing so to ensure there weren't any alignment restrictions noted (there were none), but of course that is a 3.5 OGL source. It may be that the new CS will provide more insight into actual setting restrictions.
I'm going to have to reread that section, because I just don't see how someone worshipping him as the god of secrets just has to commit murder too.
Ya can run it how ya want but by the book they must take part in murder.
Maybe he shouldn't but as written yeah he does.Evil gods often require ya to do very evil things as it please em. Seems he likes to have his clerics murder folks.
Just a quick comment about "specific trumps general": the Greyhawk diety St Cuthbert is of Lawful Neutral alignment, but it specifically stated in his block that he does not accept Evil worshippers. (even though LE would be within one step) So there's precident in core material.
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I find it hard to believe that an entire religion of various secretive people all worship one holy day in the exact same way without even one person choosing not to commit murder.
The text states that only one person gets murdered, per church, so it's unlikely that everyone actually gets in on the poisoning / stabbing, unless the dude has like a Con score of 50 and 200 or so hit points...
80% of Americans are either associated with the pro-death-penalty party or the pro-abortion party. And yet, some of us aren't evil.
Does my paying of taxes make me responsible for what happened at Kent State or My Lai? Does the Norgorberites tithing at temple make him responsible for an annual killing?
Who knows. Black and white 'always / never' morality is boring, IMO.
The whole church is in on the murder, your worshiping in and actively watching and taking part in ritualized murder of a random person you know nothing about.
80% of Americans don't help pick random folks out and watch them and even praise god for the murder , nor are they in part of the chanting and cover up of the death.
If you can do this and no be evil, no way anyone ever falls for committing an evil act.