I've been looking over these new classes, and I'm not seeing any good options for making martial characters that can keep up with existing full-BAB classes. None of the new classes have full BAB, and if I'm not mistaken, the only bonus combat feat in the whole playtest document is Weapon Finesse for one of the Medium spirits (and since it can be swapped out on a day-to-day basis, it can't be used as a prerequisite).
The classes as they are seem to focus too heavily on utility. They're loaded up with situational abilities that are nice to have, but at the expense of bread-and-butter boosts to combat or spellcasting that can make them excel at any role.
Or am I missing something?
Well, arguably Kineticist can do it but the burn mechanic may be a doozy for it in that regard. I keep telling myself that there are probably fighter, monk or brawler archetypes with some of the psychic abilities so you may get a surprise. I know I was ecstatic when all of a sudden there was a bloodline magus in ACG. Same for the cleric/monk archetype and the hunter archetype with eidolon evolutions on it's animal companion. So maybe these new classes don't need many combat abilities.
Well, arguably Kineticist can do it but the burn mechanic may be a doozy for it in that regard. I keep telling myself that there are probably fighter, monk or brawler archetypes with some of the psychic abilities so you may get a surprise. I know I was ecstatic when all of a sudden there was a bloodline magus in ACG. Same for the cleric/monk archetype and the hunter archetype with eidolon evolutions on it's animal companion. So maybe these new classes don't need many combat abilities.
I was ignoring the Kineticist, because they're doing their own completely unique thing. The point is that none of these classes could make a good archer, or a good 2HPA melee guy, or a good TWF melee, etc.
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Do they really need to be? I mean, if they can break outside the status quo of character building is that really a bad thing?
(and since it can be swapped out on a day-to-day basis, it can't be used as a prerequisite).
I very well could be wrong, but I don't think that this is true.
I was under the impression that you can take feats/classes with the prerequisite, you would simply stop gaining the benefits of said feats/classes whenever you didn't have the prerequisite (much like using magic items to qualify)
Your other points still stand, most classes would be feat starved as a martial character, but as Malwing said, I would assume archtypes are largly going to fill that gap.
Thematic archetypes for appropriate Pathfinder RPG base classes, such as the haunted totem barbarian, the phrenologist bard, the ghost rider cavalier, the psychic detective inquisitor, and more!
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GHOST RIDER CAVALIER!?!?!?!
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If not I'll be dipping 2 levels of Kineticist for Searing Flesh
If they make the correct tweaks, this'll be a Kineticist that takes the kinetic blade wild talent. I think a Transmutation Occultist makes a great melee character, too.
Otherwise, I don't really think it's a problem that you can't make a traditional archer or 2HPA character with the new classes? They're all wildly out of left field and satisfy character designs that are either impossible or extremely difficult to create with the non-psychic classes.
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The kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.
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The kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.
I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.
The kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.
So have I. :D
GHOST RIDER CAVALIER!?!?!?!
So have I. :DThe kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.
Will his hair change color when he takes burn? :P A gestalt kinetist/monk may be the character i have always wanted to play in my heart of hearts... Now i want to go back and watch a certain anime that was on saturday mornings when i was younger...
Will his hair change color when he takes burn? :P A gestalt kinetist/monk may be the character i have always wanted to play in my heart of hearts... Now i want to go back and watch a certain anime that was on saturday mornings when i was younger...So have I. :DThe kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.
I've never watched the Last Airbender.
My visual image comes more from Iron Fist in Marvel comics, or The Last Dragon with changed- surrounded by coruscating energy that can be gathered up and thrown. Or using Air with a monk to do Wuxia walk on anything/fly kind of stuff.
Will his hair change color when he takes burn? :P A gestalt kinetist/monk may be the character i have always wanted to play in my heart of hearts... Now i want to go back and watch a certain anime that was on saturday mornings when i was younger...So have I. :DThe kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.I've never watched the Last Airbender.
My visual image comes more from Iron Fist in Marvel comics, or The Last Dragon with changed- surrounded by coruscating energy that can be gathered up and thrown. Or using Air with a monk to do Wuxia walk on anything/fly kind of stuff.
Kokolotroni isn't talking about Airbender at all. Hair changing color is Dragonball Z.
Kokolotroni isn't talking about Airbender at all. Hair changing color is Dragonball Z.Will his hair change color when he takes burn? :P A gestalt kinetist/monk may be the character i have always wanted to play in my heart of hearts... Now i want to go back and watch a certain anime that was on saturday mornings when i was younger...So have I. :DThe kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.I've never watched the Last Airbender.
My visual image comes more from Iron Fist in Marvel comics, or The Last Dragon with changed- surrounded by coruscating energy that can be gathered up and thrown. Or using Air with a monk to do Wuxia walk on anything/fly kind of stuff.
Ah. Missed that one too.
Bleach, Yu Yu Hakusho. Those I know. Kineticists with some martial arts really could do about 2/3 of the entire cast of Hakusho. Lots of elementalists.
For better martial combat options, see the Gunslinger class. It fits in quite well thematically with the rest of them. Read The Dark Tower series, and you'll see what I mean.
The Occultist can be built to be an effective martial character if you choose to.
The Occultist can be built to be an effective martial character if you choose to.
Care to help out by explaining how? Just saying that you can do it isn't very helpful.
These are the class features and spells Occultists have access to that improve their physical attack or damage rolls:
Focus/Resonant Powers
Flash Insight (Can be used to get a +1/2 level Insight bonus on a single attack as a swift action)
Legacy Weapon (Can be used to add damaging weapon properties)
Psychic Weapon (Swift action, +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute, still caps at +5)
Spells
Enlarge person
Magic weapon
Greater magic weapon
Haste
Transformation
The list is very short and often weak, likely leaving the occultist with accuracy and damage output issues at higher levels (though they're certainly quite functional at low levels when the majority of your power comes from your starting Strength score). They can certainly perform other roles, but unless something serious has been overlooked, physical combatant isn't one of them. That isn't inherently a bad thing, but it does make the fact that they get martial weapon proficiency and 3/4ths BAB pretty bizarre, since as far as I can tell all those are going to accomplish is trapping new players into thinking they can be a physical fighter occultist when they're going to scale into relative weakness at high levels.
- Legacy Weapon (taking Bane or Holy) - you can reset this on a day by day basis. So if you're going into a tomb - undead bane, against giants - giant bane, etc.
- Physical Enhancement - the belt doesn't consume the magic item slot, so you can get a +X Strength belt in addition to another; or use it to get a significant discount on an effective belt of physical might.
- Abjuration Implements - sure they don't add to hit / damage, but they do make you significantly more durable. Also, the spell selection is decent. Shield at low levels, rising to stoneskin.
- and the stuff you mention.
Are they a fighter / barbarian? - no.
Can they be favorably compared to an Inquisitor / Magus - I would say yes.
Does this make them a 'martial' character - in my eyes, yes.
Their reliable benefits (duration based or permanent) to hit from class (that are not easily reproducible by non-classed means) total at +0. +5 at 17th level with transformation if you shut off your spellcasting.
That doesn't favorably compare to anyone. :P
Their reliable benefits (duration based or permanent) to hit from class (that are not easily reproducible by non-classed means) total at +0. +5 at 17th level with transformation if you shut off your spellcasting.
That's a very narrow way of looking at it though - as it kind of ignores what they are capable of.
The magic item flexibility is an underrated part of the class. It allows you to get alternate sources of the primary magic items that frees up the slots for other uses.
The Transmutation implement for bane / holy is always on, and doesn't need to be activated / cast - so there isn't any action tax on initiating it.
The defensive component is also important, sure you might miss once or twice - but you'll survive for longer as well.
There's more to combat than just to hit.
Edit - oh, and they have a good will save as well.
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Yes. There is more to combat than just to-hit. But to-hit is the first bar that determines if you're a valuable physical combatant. Next is dealing damage that matters when you do hit. And then, after you're a legitimate target (nobody is going to waste actions attacking someone who is ineffectually flailing at them or their allies), survival and longevity.
If you can't meet the first bar, it doesn't matter how well you perform at the others. You won't be good at physical attacks.
So, directed question then - quantify how much it's lacking?
In your opinion how much to hit does it need, and how short is it?
Similarly as you stated above, set a bar that it needs to reach at an arbitrary level to have a 'high enough' to hit.
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"Any" would be a good start. But the self-buffing capabilities of Bards or Inquisitors would be worth comparing to, since they'd function in the same or a similar role (physical combatant with utility and buffing).
Bards (with no archetypes, special tricks, feats, assuming only one buff spell is cast) scale from +1 competence bonus to hit and damage for themselves and all of their allies to +4 competence bonus to hit and damage for themselves and all of their allies, and +5 morale bonus (before Courageous, +7 with) to hit, damage, and AC. Net +9 (or 11) to hit and damage, +5 (or 7) to AC.
Inquisitors (likewise, with a standard out-of-the-box Inquisitor, only casting a single buff spell) start off a bit slower, only able to use Judgment in a few fights until 10th/13th when they can use it in every fight. With that in mind, their capabilities scale from +1 bonus to hit, damage, saves, or AC and +1 luck bonus to hit and damage to 3 of +5 to hit, +7 to damage, +5 to AC, or +5 to saves (ignoring the situationally useful benefits of other judgments), +6 luck bonus to hit and damage (with temp HP and the haste extra attack), +2 to-hit and 4d6 damage. Net +13 to hit, +4D6+13 damage, options for +5 AC or +5 Saves.
Occultist doesn't even begin to stack up with them in physical output. As is it's probably best kept to other combat roles, such as leaning on summoning with Shadow Beast (with the side benefit of producing a truly massive amount of utility through summon SLAs- your allies can always choose to fail their saves to disbelieve, after all) or handing off focused weapons and armor to other party members- when it's not using spells for control and protection or leading an undead army. And those are good, effective, fun things to be doing. They're just not physical combat.
So if we compare the Occultist to other 3/4 BAB classes that are meant to be versatile...
Cleric, Oracle, and Druid are 9-level spellcasters, so they can easily focus primarily on spellcasting, and they have a good number of combat buff spells on their list. In addition, Oracles can choose the right revelations to become melee powerhouses, Druids have animal companions AND wild shape, while Clerics can pick and choose weapon proficiencies and domain abilities to further boost their melee power.
Bards get no bonus combat feats, but Inspire Courage boosts themselves AND their teammates, they get enough great buff spells like 2nd-level heroism, good hope, haste, and so on to let them match full BAB classes, and they have massive skill-boosting abilities like bardic knowledge, versatile performance, and lore master.
Rogues get sneak attack to boost damage, plus rogue talents every two levels, many of which can be used to pick up bonus combat feats or otherwise boost combat. Ninjas do the same, but even better with a ki pool.
Alchemists get bombs for group damage that target touch AC, plus a mutagen and discoveries that can make them into melee powerhouses, and a metric buttload of buff extracts (enlarge person, heroism, barkskin, false life, etc.)
Summoners... are summoners.
Meanwhile, the Occultist (whose proficiencies suggest he's meant to be at least capable of a martial role) can pick up a free weapon enhancement (at best, an extra 1d6 damage, or 2d6 against the right enemies), and can boost his enhancement bonus on his weapon by 1 (but that 1 never scales up). Or he can use Physical Enhancement on a belt, but it scales more slowly than a stat belt normally would, so it's either going to a secondary stat, or you're lagging behind in your main combat stat in order to save cash. And if you want to use two of those? Well, you've just used up all your mental focus, so you don't get to play with any of your other implements.
He gets a few buff spells on his list (haste, enlarge person, greater magic weapon, and... uh... pretty much nothing else). A couple of focus powers can give a one-time boost, but at a steep price, since you'll slowly be stripping away any static bonuses you got by spending the mental focus that was fueling your other stuff.
Phew, glad I got that off my chest.
I hear what you're saying... but neither of you actually gave a number that the occultist needed to get to.
You've listed a great number of things that other classes are capable of, and the spells that they can cast, the benefits that they can give to the party, etc, etc, etc.
But neither of you have said what you'd consider the Occultist itself to need to be considered 'effective as a martial'.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to realistically get a figure of what added bonuses you'd expect to see in order to get a 'tick' from your side.
I hear what you're saying... but neither of you actually gave a number that the occultist needed to get to.
You've listed a great number of things that other classes are capable of, and the spells that they can cast, the benefits that they can give to the party, etc, etc, etc.
But neither of you have said what you'd consider the Occultist itself to need to be considered 'effective as a martial'.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to realistically get a figure of what added bonuses you'd expect to see in order to get a 'tick' from your side.
I did list some things in the Occultist thread, such as:
-Let the Psychic Weapon focus power scale up, similar to the magus's Arcane Pool, or paladin's Divine Bond.
-Give the Occultist access to bonus feats, probably through resonant powers. For example, a weapon as a divination implement could give Weapon Focus with 3 MF, Weapon Specialization at level 4 with 3 more MF, Improved Critical at 8, and so on.
-Add a couple more buff spells to his list, such as heroism, good hope, or even better, a new psychic-specific buff spell.
-Loosen up the Mental Focus, either by scaling it faster or allowing implements to keep their resonant powers after the MF is spent. As it stands now, starting at level 4 the Occultist doesn't have enough MF to use all the implements he has access to; at level 6 and above, new implements are good for nothing but expanding his spell list.
Will his hair change color when he takes burn? :P A gestalt kinetist/monk may be the character i have always wanted to play in my heart of hearts... Now i want to go back and watch a certain anime that was on saturday mornings when i was younger...So have I. :DThe kineticist screams for a monk archetype if you ask me. Heck, I want a full on hybrid class to be honet.I've already been working on a character for a gestalt game.
Unfortunately, taking on that burn requires 500 Full-Round Actions. :p