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Ok, so i was like "hey its cool unarmored cleric archetype i always wanted, and cloistered isn't to my taste" but then:
An ecclesitheurge who wears prohibited armor or uses a prohibited shield is unable to use his blessing of the faithful ability, use cleric domain powers, or cast cleric spells.
What is that? Am i missing something?
Also does ecclesitheurge need to make concentration checks if not in posession of his bonded item? It does not say so, just "alike to wizard" so i wonder.
Its a terrible terrible archetype... one of the worst I've seen.. I would pass if I were you
I guess you right, but that does not explains what the hell is Blessing of the Faithful.
Thats what truly farcical..... it was such a bad design Paizo couldnt even be arsed to finish it... there is no 'Blessing of the Faithful' ability!
Ask your DM nicely if 3PP is allowed... there are some excellent D6 divine options available..... all of which put Paizo's limp efforts to sort the cleric class out to shame!!!
The designer of that archetype says that the Blessing of the Faithful ability was cut from the final version of the class, so the correct solution would be to pretend that that text isn't there.
Also does ecclesitheurge need to make concentration checks if not in posession of his bonded item? It does not say so, just "alike to wizard" so i wonder.
Has this part here ever been officially answered?
The Ecclesitheurge make me sad. I considere it a crippled arcehtype, but I've seen others (ravingdork?) saying they have builded(played?) the archetype without problems.
Yep. Its not great, but it is playable.
not with the book I have... of course, if I had a printer, I could errata the book with the corrected version from the site...
Hmm so that's a bit lame you go up in levels and then have to use an item to cast spells or you get a concentration check.
If you had this from level one then it would make more sense.
Anyways, thanks for the link Andrew.
Thanks Marc. Sounds neat. However, I don't really use 3rd party stuff.
if you were looking at this for being unarmed just play a cleric with no armor.
If you're wanting a less fighty cleric check out the cardinal
At this point I was more or less just curious about how that class ability worked. Thanks for the suggestions though. :)
It is very decent, take 1 monk level and your ac isn't half bad.
Get either a domain with suck spells and good powers like madness or healing. Add main as fire , and you got a flurrry cleric, with on ac, and nice powers .
Already thought of taking a level of monk. :)
So, now that they have added Blessing of the Faithful back to the archetype (both in the PRD and the PDF), what does everyone think of this archetype? I too am interested in being a cloth-wearing healer/cleric, and assuming that you can swap out for subdomain spell lists also, and prep those spells in your regular slots (which, RAW, is possible), it's not bad at all.
Is requiring a Standard action for Blessing of the Faithful too much, though? It's basically a better, ranged Aid Another. Not bad at all for a support class, but perhaps not equal to, say, a Witch with the Hedge Witch archetype (another option for an unarmored healer).
I don't think it makes any difference. As you say, ranged Aid Another, but none of the ways to make normal Aid Another better apply.
I do think the archetype is usable and possibly even good for the right player. i.e. not Silver Surfer, someone who's used to playing cautious wizardly types.
While admittedly a sub optimal prestige class, I found it useful for a mystic theurge, since they often want to avoid asf, but since haramaki and silken ceremonial armor exist, that's less useful.
I mean, if you're doing an unarmored build via a Monk dip or want to focus on the more versatile spellcasting then it's not a bad archetype. You lose armor and weapon Proficiencies and a single Channel die for "Arcane Bond", a floating domain, and an at-will buff to avoid running out of resources at lower levels.
If you ask me, the terrible rep this archetype has is mostly undeserved. As a casting archetype I thought people would jump all over the chance to grab more domain spells and an arcane bond, but the reaction seems to imply people just want the 3.5 cleric back.
The ecclesitheurge does one thing really well, and that's taking the Stars domain as your secondary domain, so you can cast any of your deities domain or subdomain spells you want spontaneously (spell list chosen on the daily)
Funny, this is exactly the type of cleric I've wanted to play and will be retraining into as soon as I have the prestige to do so (psf).
They can be quite useful for making a large variety of scrolls, wands, and potions from their Domains and "arcane bond" abilities.
Blessing of the Faithful is pretty good, actually. It counts toward all of one specific type of roll, so if you apply it correctly you can aid skills that wouldn't otherwise be aid-able. The Monk dip I'd more or less mandatory, but aside from that it's still a 9th level spellcaster with the ability to pull spells out of it's hat for almost any situation.
The ecclesitheurge does one thing really well, and that's taking the Stars domain as your secondary domain, so you can cast any of your deities domain or subdomain spells you want spontaneously (spell list chosen on the daily)what do you mean ?
you swap STAR domain spells...(yes, ALL 3 of them....)
sucks,
Each subdomain replaces a granted power and a number of spells in the domain’s granted spell list.
the entire spell list is the subdomain spell list, those three spells just replace 3 spells on your domain list.
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If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.
You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.
???
If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5r6?Stars-subdomain-Which-spells-are-affected
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???
If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5r6?Stars-subdomain-Which-spells-are-affected
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... that thread is just a few posts of people discussing it.
... that thread is just a few posts of people discussing it.???
If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5r6?Stars-subdomain-Which-spells-are-affected
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which is pretty much what we're doing until you give me some sort of official source. The wording on how subdomains work is pretty clear.
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which is pretty much what we're doing until you give me some sort of official source. The wording on how subdomains work is pretty clear.... that thread is just a few posts of people discussing it.???
If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5r6?Stars-subdomain-Which-spells-are-affected
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Presented in the section below are new rules for subdomains—more specific focuses for clerical worship and power that allow players greater flexibility in customizing their characters. Every domain has a number of subdomains associated with it (see Table 2–11 for a complete list). Each subdomain replaces a granted power and a number of spells in the domain’s granted spell list. Spells marked with an asterisk (*) are detailed in Chapter 5 of this book. A cleric who chooses a subdomain must have access to both the domain and its subdomain from her deity (see Table 2–12). If a cleric selects a subdomain, she cannot select its associated domain as her other domain choice (in effect, the subdomain replaces its associated domain). Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains. If a subdomain has two associated domains, the cleric can only select the subdomain for one of her domains. Subdomains can be selected by druids (except the metal subdomain) and inquisitors (if their deity allows it).
If a subdomain ability calls for a saving throw, the DC of the save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.
Official source.
which is pretty much what we're doing until you give me some sort of official source. The wording on how subdomains work is pretty clear.... that thread is just a few posts of people discussing it.???
If you prepare your cleric spells while the stars are visible to you, you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells by swapping out a spell of an equal spell level. Any Stars subdomain spell that you cast while the stars are visible to you heals you of an amount of hit point damage equal to the spell's level; this effect happens as you cast the spell.You can only spontaneously cast the 3 spells the Stars Domain gives you.http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r5r6?Stars-subdomain-Which-spells-are-affected
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...Presented in the section below are new rules for subdomains—more specific focuses for clerical worship and power that allow players greater flexibility in customizing their characters. Every domain has a number of subdomains associated with it (see Table 2–11 for a complete list). Each subdomain replaces a granted power and a number of spells in the domain’s granted spell list. Spells marked with an asterisk (*) are detailed in Chapter 5 of this book. A cleric who chooses a subdomain must have access to both the domain and its subdomain from her deity (see Table 2–12). If a cleric selects a subdomain, she cannot select its associated domain as her other domain choice (in effect, the subdomain replaces its associated domain). Subdomains are treated as equivalent to their associated domain for any effect or prerequisite based on domains. If a subdomain has two associated domains, the cleric can only select the subdomain for one of her domains. Subdomains can be selected by druids (except the metal subdomain) and inquisitors (if their deity allows it).
If a subdomain ability calls for a
The problem here is that the piece of text you're trying to use to prove your point is the same piece of text I was using to prove my point, we're arguing the opposite thing with the same available data, we're never going to agree.
Frogsplosion is correct. The Stars Subdomain spells are the Void Domain spells with three substituted spells. Rysky's citation backs that up, actually.
More to the discussion: The Stars are Right would be redundant with Ecclesitheurge as you can already spontaneously cast your domain spells.
Frogsplosion is correct. The Stars Subdomain spells are the Void Domain spells with three substituted spells. Rysky's citation backs that up, actually.
More to the discussion: The Stars are Right would be redundant with Ecclesitheurge as you can already spontaneously cast your domain spells.
not quite you can spontaneously cast your PRIMARY domain spells, if stars is your SECONDARY domain, you can swap it's spell list out each day with ANY domain spell list your deity grants access to :P
Domain Mastery
At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his primary domain and the other as his secondary domain. An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to prepare spells from his primary domain's spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain's spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary domain's granted powers or gain access to the other domain's granted powers. For example, an ecclesitheurge with Glory as his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers of the Healing domain.
I'm not seeing the whole "spontaneous domain spell casting" (without the stars subdomain). Am I missing something? All I see is
> Can prepare primary domain spells in normal spell slots> Can prepare secondary domain spells in domain spell slots
Domain Mastery
At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his primary domain and the other as his secondary domain. An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to prepare spells from his primary domain's spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain's spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary domain's granted powers or gain access to the other domain's granted powers. For example, an ecclesitheurge with Glory as his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers of the Healing domain.
I'm not seeing the whole "spontaneous domain spell casting" (without the stars subdomain). Am I missing something? All I see is
> Can prepare primary domain spells in normal spell slots
> Can prepare secondary domain spells in domain spell slots
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain's spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list.
not quite you can spontaneously cast your PRIMARY domain spells, if stars is your SECONDARY domain, you can swap it's spell list out each day with ANY domain spell list your deity grants access to :PFrogsplosion is correct. The Stars Subdomain spells are the Void Domain spells with three substituted spells. Rysky's citation backs that up, actually.
More to the discussion: The Stars are Right would be redundant with Ecclesitheurge as you can already spontaneously cast your domain spells.
I wouldn't agree with that interpretation of the Stars are Right. I have Stars as secondary domain, I can spontaneously cast any of the Stars domain spells, but if I choose to use Travel domain spells as my secondary domain spells on a given day, that doesn't make them Stars domain spells.
@ Frogsplosion - if that's what you mean with spontaneous casting, okay. I was more thinking of the "can convert any spell slot into a domain spell, on the spot" equivalent of spontaneous casting. Carry on :)
I wouldn't agree with that interpretation of the Stars are Right. I have Stars as secondary domain, I can spontaneously cast any of the Stars domain spells, but if I choose to use Travel domain spells as my secondary domain spells on a given day, that doesn't make them Stars domain spells.not quite you can spontaneously cast your PRIMARY domain spells, if stars is your SECONDARY domain, you can swap it's spell list out each day with ANY domain spell list your deity grants access to :PFrogsplosion is correct. The Stars Subdomain spells are the Void Domain spells with three substituted spells. Rysky's citation backs that up, actually.
More to the discussion: The Stars are Right would be redundant with Ecclesitheurge as you can already spontaneously cast your domain spells.
he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list
this is the example given, wording seems pretty clear
@ Frogsplosion - if that's what you mean with spontaneous casting, okay. I was more thinking of the "can convert any spell slot into a domain spell, on the spot" equivalent of spontaneous casting. Carry on :)
The Stars Are Right allows you to do exactly that, but if Stars is your secondary domain you can also swap the spell list out so you can technically pick a new list of spontaneously castable spells from your deities domains every day. If I worshipped azathoth for example, I could swap the stars list with the Sun domain's spells AND be able to cast them spontaneously, in addition to having a primary domain that is spontaneous.
he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list
this is the example given, wording seems pretty clear
Not to the effect you're proposing.
. . . you may spontaneously cast any of you Stars subdomain spells . . .
This is not "may spontaneously cast any of your secondary domain spells."
In the example, the Healing Domain spells are still "Healing Domain" spells, and Sun is still Sun, etc.
I would agree to this: Travel primary, Stars secondary, currently using Good domain spells as secondary and memorized allows spontaneously casting of Travel and Stars Domain spells while using Domain slots to cast Good Domain spells.
okay, I'm not really used to the whole rules arguments over text thing, I find it exasperating because I can't ever tell if I've properly conveyed my thought process when the rebuttal comes in, so lets review.
We already agree on my point #1 - That a subdomain's spell list includes all the spells of each level, so we can skip that part.
#2: The Stars Right says "you may spontaneously cast any of your Stars subdomain spells".
Domain Mastery says:
At 1st level, when an ecclesitheurge chooses his cleric domains, he designates one as his primary domain and the other as his secondary domain. An ecclesitheurge can use his non-domain spell slots to prepare spells from his primary domain's spell list.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain's spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list. He does not lose access to his actual secondary domain's granted powers or gain access to the other domain's granted powers.
For example, an ecclesitheurge with Glory as his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list, but still keeps the granted powers of the Good domain and does not gain the granted powers of the Healing domain.
~~~
So you designate the Stars Subdomain as your secondary domain and each day you can change spell lists. According to the example it functions "as my secondary domain's spell list" what is my secondary domain? the Stars subdomain. It effectively IS the stars subdomain spell list which makes them stars subdomain spells for the duration of the ability, the example pretty much says so.
The other thought behind my view is any other time Pathfinder uses "uses/works/functions AS" for spells and abilities it generally means "is exactly this except where stated otherwise"
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You put an apostrophe s after Domain that isn't there. That makes the difference in the conclusion.
Each day when he prepares spells, an ecclesitheurge can select a different domain granted by his deity to gain access to that domain’s spell list instead of his secondary domain spell list.
For example, an ecclesitheurge of Sarenrae with Glory and his primary domain and Good as his secondary domain can choose to gain access to the Healing domain; until the next time he prepares spells, he uses the Healing domain spell list as his secondary domain spell list instead of the Good domain spell list
Note the lack of 's.
Your secondary Domain spell list is now Healing instead of Glory.
The whole ability rule states that you select a different spell list instead of your normal list (not substituting). You keep your actual secondary domain's abilities but drop it's spells and gain a different Domain list. Nothing changes the spells in the Domain (the Healing Domain spells don't become Glory Domain spells, you just have access to Healing Domain spells instead of Glory's). Basically, your secondary Domain spell list became Healing instead of Glory, and you have Glory abilities.
Now, if it did in fact say "as his secondary domain's spell list," then your argument would make sense. My secondary domain is Star's, so the Sun domain spell list is functioning as Star's list. I would still dispute it, but you would at least have syntax on your side.
The ability that allows you to use the spell list is the cleric's Domain class feature, the spell list must be part of your domain in order to place it in a domain slot, so I would believe that it cannot be a spell list in a domain you don't have regardless of whether or not Domain Mastery allows you to use it. Since domain mastery explicitly says you use it as your secondary domain spell list, it must be the Stars domain as that is my secondary domain.
Domain Mastery gives you all of the domains your deity allows, one at a time. The spell lists don't need Stars or any other domain to hold them, they exist in their original domain, and you, as an Ecclesitheurge, have access to them if you choose when you prepare the spell. When, in the book's example, you are using the Healing list instead of Glory, you have the Healing domain.
It's modular rather than transformative.
An Ifrit Ecclesitheurge of Serenae with Fire Mastery doesn't get +1 CL on Healing Domain spells because he took Fire as his secondary domain, either. Cure Light Wounds doesn't magically become a Fire domain spell.
Domain Mastery gives you all of the domains your deity allows, one at a time. The spell lists don't need Stars or any other domain to hold them, they exist in their original domain, and you, as an Ecclesitheurge, have access to them if you choose when you prepare the spell. When, in the book's example, you are using the Healing list instead of Glory, you have the Healing domain.
It's modular rather than transformative.
An Ifrit Ecclesitheurge of Serenae with Fire Mastery doesn't get +1 CL on Healing Domain spells because he took Fire as his secondary domain, either. Cure Light Wounds doesn't magically become a Fire domain spell.
no it doesn't, if it did, it would say that it did that, it doesn't. At this point you're basically creating rules that don't exist. I can agree to disagree but we clearly have completely differing views on how the ability functions.