kineticist problems at first glance


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first as a point of clarification my reference for what level of power/usefulness is going to be a blaster wizard.

1) A Potentially crippling problem is resistance/immunity. If your blast does cold damage, then will be worthless if you fight anything with high resistance or immunity to cold damage. While not all the blasts have this issue, it is still an issue.
If you only have one power it NEEDS to work, I am not going to play a class that is made into a lodestone for the group because we are fighting to wrong kind of elemental.

To fix this I would do one of three things.
The easiest would be to give each element two blasts (some have two already) that do two damage types that are rarely found together.
The second solution would be to give each blast the option of two damage types that you can pick upon casting it.
The third would be to make a bland baseline blast that everyone gets. maybe even make it strictly worse then the other blast. but it would still be better then trying to burn a fire elemental.

2) why do I have to be Lv10 to fly if I am aether or fire but I can do it at 6 if I am air?

3) in order to compete with blaster wizards more forms are needed. they also all need to be usable by any element, so you don't have some elements that are all but unusable because you can't apply the "fireball" form to it. They also need to be low enough level so your not stuck attacking targets one at a time when the wizard is just fireballing everything. I would say by 3 you need a multitarget form, by 6 or 7 at the latest you need a true AOE form.

Grand Lodge

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1) each of the blasts presented already has a way to overcome resistance by using slashing/bludgeoning/piercing damage instead. Except for fire.

2) Air should, flavor wise, be the best at flight. Flying is kinda and air thing.

3) this class inst trying to compete with the blaster wizard. A more apt comparison would be an archer ranger. Solid damage every round, infinite uses. If the elemental blast can compete with a fireball, there is a balance issue.


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These classes are geared to be viewed differently from the divine and arcane.... theyre psychic classes.... and as such you need to keep in mind theyre coming from a completely different direction


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Zedorland wrote:
3) this class inst trying to compete with the blaster wizard. A more apt comparison would be an archer ranger. Solid damage every round, infinite uses. If the elemental blast can compete with a fireball, there is a balance issue.

...Why shouldn't the Kineticist be a better blaster than a blaster wizard? I mean, blasting is pretty much the one thing the Kineticist does. I'd expect her to be better at it than anyone else.


Silver Surfer wrote:
These classes are geared to be viewed differently from the divine and arcane.... theyre psychic classes.... and as such you need to keep in mind theyre coming from a completely different direction

Even if these are coming from a very different power source, they still need to fill a role in a party.

I came to the same conclusion as the OP when first reading the Kineticist: they are absolutely HOSED by DR. Not just elemental immunities, but also any sort of DR/Good/Evil/Lawful/Silver/Whatever.

The other big problem with the class is their to-hit with non touch powers. At 3/4 BAB with no way of enhancing their to-hit besides BAB and Stat bonuses, they are going to be missing a LOT of the time.

My fix? Have them ignore DR and have a feat or Wild Talent to ignore some resistance. Archers get Clustered Shots and special arrows, blaster casters get ways of changing their element types on the fly, right now Kineticists have no way of overcoming this. Maybe in the feats they will get some options?

And/or some sort of magic item that lets them enhance their to hit and damage. It would certainly help shore up their pitiful to hit with non touch attacks, and the +3/+5 enhancement threshholds would help bypass DRs.

I really love the design behind this class, it reminds me a lot of the 3.5 Warlock (Which I loved), but it has a lot of issues right now. As of now, it will (barely) break even with archers and other ranged damage dealers when your opponent doesn't have any special defenses, and will be absolutely useless against those who do.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
...Why shouldn't the Kineticist be a better blaster than a blaster wizard? I mean, blasting is pretty much the one thing the Kineticist does. I'd expect her to be better at it than anyone else.

Because they can do it all day, whereas a wizard will run out of fireballs after one or two encounters, up until high levels where teleporting the martials into a position where they can full attack an enemy deals more damage with your standard action than literally any spell you could possibly cast.

However, unlike the 3.5 warlock, which was basically a magical archer who got neat tricks like unlimited flight and unlimited greater invisibility to compensate for their weaker damage, the kineticist is pretty terrible compared to the Pathfinder versions of archer characters.


Bypassing resistances could be pretty easily built into the class IMO. Have each Element start with 2 blasts, one physical and one elemental, then have the Combined blasts you get at level 7 and up use different energy and damage/energy types than their simple blasts.

Just by virtue of having several types of damage to toss around Resistance becomes less a problem.

As for DR, maybe a Wild Talent to give you an allignment on your attacks? Magic items to modify DR penetration? Wild Talent that reduces Dr by 5 then another talent to reduce another 5?


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Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
...Why shouldn't the Kineticist be a better blaster than a blaster wizard? I mean, blasting is pretty much the one thing the Kineticist does. I'd expect her to be better at it than anyone else.

Because they can do it all day, whereas a wizard will run out of fireballs after one or two encounters, up until high levels where teleporting the martials into a position where they can full attack an enemy deals more damage with your standard action than literally any spell you could possibly cast.

However, unlike the 3.5 warlock, which was basically a magical archer who got neat tricks like unlimited flight and unlimited greater invisibility to compensate for their weaker damage, the kineticist is pretty terrible compared to the Pathfinder versions of archer characters.

The "all day" argument is extremely unconvincing. This is only a problem for the first few levels; the ice sorcerer I'm playing with hasn't run out of blasty things to cast in a very long time. Note this is against a GM who's approach to encounter design is "throw a sizable army at it".


Perhaps feats or other abilities that let you deal a crapton of damage against outsiders, fey, undead, and creatures with alignment subtypes, who will be the ones with difficult DR. Considering outsiders, fey, and undead are among the more occultic of creature types, it makes thematic sense.


I don't think the class would be hurt by making it full BAB. Considering the role it fills is more similar to that of a full BAB class and it's been balanced like the fighter with low skills and lower but consistent combat performance since it can go all day, it seems as though it is more of the fighter version of the psychic classes anyways.


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Arachnofiend wrote:
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
...Why shouldn't the Kineticist be a better blaster than a blaster wizard? I mean, blasting is pretty much the one thing the Kineticist does. I'd expect her to be better at it than anyone else.

Because they can do it all day, whereas a wizard will run out of fireballs after one or two encounters, up until high levels where teleporting the martials into a position where they can full attack an enemy deals more damage with your standard action than literally any spell you could possibly cast.

However, unlike the 3.5 warlock, which was basically a magical archer who got neat tricks like unlimited flight and unlimited greater invisibility to compensate for their weaker damage, the kineticist is pretty terrible compared to the Pathfinder versions of archer characters.

The "all day" argument is extremely unconvincing. This is only a problem for the first few levels; the ice sorcerer I'm playing with hasn't run out of blasty things to cast in a very long time. Note this is against a GM who's approach to encounter design is "throw a sizable army at it".

Which is why the 3.5 warlock was roundly ridiculed once people got over the novelty of a 1st-level character using shatter at will.


Does anyone have playtest reports of this? I could see this being an issue, but I'm not fully convinced just yet.


I've played a session but it was just against humanoids so nothing came up. Of course, I'm playing a Terrakineticist so DR is much less of a problem for me than it is for others. Still dreading when I start facing off against fiends, though...

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Wow!! Did any of you even read the class???
Depending of energy type or damage type there are ways to mitigate Dr and resistances l. And as long as you suffer one point of burn you get a +1 attack and damage for every 3 lvls.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I think the bigger problem lays with the burn mechanic. Is just scales weird. Unless I'm reading it wrong a point of burn is lvl in non lethal damage. So a 1st lvl could take 13 points, assuming no lethal. But a 20 lvl could only take 9. But there is also a limit to number of burn points you can have in a day, which I believe was lvl +3. It just scales really weirdly.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think the burn mechanic assumes you are boosting you constitution with level increases and magic belts at every opportunity.


So, the mediocre BAB can be made up for, but only at the cost of accepting burn.

That may or may not be an acceptable tradeoff. Only playtesting can truly iron that out, but it's something to keep in mind.

Some quick notes on a few methods of overcoming resistances that I have seen on my first real skim through the infusions:

Terrakineticist can overcome special material DR with Rare Metal Infusion at class level 6.

Pyrokineticists can ignore SR at class level 16th with Pure Flame Infusion.


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So, the mediocre BAB can be made up for, but only at the cost of accepting burn.

That may or may not be an acceptable tradeoff. Only playtesting can truly iron that out, but it's something to keep in mind.

Some quick notes on a few methods of overcoming resistances that I have seen on my first real skim through the infusions:

Terrakineticist can overcome special material DR with Rare Metal Infusion at class level 6.

Pyrokineticists can ignore SR at class level 16th with Pure Flame Infusion.

.....

It seems Composite Blasts are intended to be a way around elemental resistance or immunity. Yeah, your damage is cut in half, but it's better than nothing.

Silver Crusade

drowranger80 wrote:
I think the bigger problem lays with the burn mechanic. Is just scales weird. Unless I'm reading it wrong a point of burn is lvl in non lethal damage. So a 1st lvl could take 13 points, assuming no lethal. But a 20 lvl could only take 9. But there is also a limit to number of burn points you can have in a day, which I believe was lvl +3. It just scales really weirdly.

You take your level per point of burn, so yes, a 1st level would take 1 point of non lethal per burn, a 20th level would take 20 non lethal per point of burn. You are limited to 1 +1 at 6th, +1 per 3 levels thereafter per action. So at first level you can only accumulate 1 point of burn per round, max. Taking 1 point of nonlethal per turn, max.

Per day, you can only ever have a number of burn equal to your con mod + 3, so a Kineticist with an 18 con can only have 7 points of burn over the course of a single day, once he hits 7 he's capped for the day and can reset his pool to 0 with a full evening's rest. At 1st level, assuming the same 18 con, you could be utilizing 7 of your 12 hp (assuming you don't do other things to increase your hp,) for Burn, leaving you at 5 potential hp for damage and such.

It's a tough tradeoff, and yeah, it scales weird for sure, but it feels like they tried to make a new mechanic while also adhering to some existing ones in general style, grit for example.

As a side note, kineticist is one of the few classes that favored class hp will be premium over skill points for me.


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Which is too bad, since they get no benefit from a high Intelligence, and they have 2 + Int skills per level.

I hope to hell that gets changed.

Silver Crusade

Thelemic_Noun wrote:

Which is too bad, since they get no benefit from a high Intelligence, and they have 2 + Int skills per level.

I hope to hell that gets changed.

Agreed.

I think a 4+ would fit better with the theme of the class. It feels like I don't see a ton of direct function classes that have 3/4 BAB with 2+. The only 2+ that comes to mind is Cleric, and I can accept that because of the fact that they have up to 9th level spells.


Thelemic_Noun wrote:
So, the mediocre BAB can be made up for, but only at the cost of accepting burn.

It's not really made up for, just caught up to the BAB itself. Remember all the full BAB classes have additional attack boosts beyond their BAB (Weapon Training, Rage, Studied Target, etc). You are on par with the Dawnflower Dervish before factoring in spells... which isn't saying much since you have to ignore 6th level casting to pretend the classes are on the same level.

Silver Crusade

So there are now ways for them to deal with alignment based DR...or deal with alignment based regeneration. But yeah the scaling is weird.


Okay, so it seems there are two main methods for upping the blast damage so that the class isn't as hilariously gimped as the warlock was (prior to the inevitable wash of PrCs and items in later 3.5)

So, the kineticist can accept burn to add metamagic (note that from the reading of the burn ability, you can't reduce the burn cost of metamagic by spending a move action).

The other is composite blasts, available by taking the Expanded Element wild talent at 7th level (which can be taken a second time at 15th level).

Composite blasts typically double your damage, and usually by adding an equal amount of damage of a different type (usually to create a combination of physical and elemental damage). They cost 2 points of burn to use, though the "reduce by 1 by spending a move action" mechanic can reduce this to 1.

At 15th level, they can create composite blasts for 1 less burn point than normal, which from what I understand can stack with the move action reduction for a total cost of 0.

For a 15th-level character with no true spellcasting ability, I think this is just fine.

There are also composite blasts that simply double up on your elemental damage, but these require you to take Expanded Element for your own element, which doesn't open up any new Wild Talents for you to choose and pigeonholes you quite a bit.

At 19th level, you can choose one kind of metamagic and reduce the burn cost by 1. I suppose that a character who truly wanted to emphasize their Energizer Bunny nature could select Empower, allowing all their blasts to be Empowered.

But that's 19th level we're talking about, so who gives a ****?

The true strength of the kineticist, I feel, will be shown in the playtest to be their ability to combine damage dealing with at-will wild talents OTHER than damage dealing.

But that doesn't mean their damage might not need a boost.


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While discussing DR, what happens when the telekineticist uses their blast to chuck some silver candlesticks at a devil that has DR silver or good? It's an unattended object, so they can toss it, but its a silver item. Does it bypass the DR, despite the aether blast having no built in mechanic for bypasing DR?

If so, will we then see telekenitics carrying aroung bags of holding filled with every silver, admantine, and cold iron nik-nak they can find?

Silver Crusade

I will say for the "most part" this puts it in a similar tone with an Alchemist without fast bomb (granted most of them take.)

Granted, alchemists hit touch ac, AND have a form of "spells", but I think the Wild Talents make up for the spells an Alchemist would have, and the fact that the Kineticist has unlimited amount makes up for the lack of touch ac that an Alchemist can hit.

Not saying they're the same, but it helps me in the time before I can actually sit down and playtest, to find something to build a comparison concept on.

Kineticist seems like a crowd control/5th man/blaster build. Something that is a "damage" character, but isn't as good as some other damage characters. There are some questions I had that will invariably come up during my playtest:

Can you utilize Kinetic Blast with Shot on the Run, Deadly Aim, and Vital Strike? Does it count as a weapon for Weapon Focus/Specialization etc.

Finally, I will say the frustration I have with a class that has 3/4 bab, does not hit touch, is completely ranged combat focus, and has no bonus feats whatsoever, essentially having a two feat tax for point blank/precise shot. I understand it's not the only one, and I understand it isn't THAT huge of a deal, just a frustration I'd like to vent :D


The Kineticist could really use Precise Shot or Toughness (both?) as a bonus feat. This class feels really feat starved all around without any bonus feats.


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One thing that worries me about the class is its lack of AOE attacks. You can't create the equivilant of a fireball until level 16, and almost every chain lightning or line based attack requires attack rolls. This means that most kineticists can't do anything against swarms.


Zedorland wrote:


2) Air should, flavor wise, be the best at flight. Flying is kinda and air thing.

that is not enough of a reason to make fire and aether wait for 4 levels, well past what air has of flight, and what any full caster that has flight has to wait.

Zedorland wrote:


3) this class inst trying to compete with the blaster wizard. A more apt comparison would be an archer ranger. Solid damage every round, infinite uses. If the elemental blast can compete with a fireball, there is a balance issue.

it may not be trying but it is because it the blaster wizard is also a class in the game. unless there is a rule that says you can not build a blaster wizard at a table with a kineticist.


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If you can use Vital Strike with Kinetic Blasts, then suddenly all the damage woes go out the window.

They will probably modify them to not work with Vital Strike, and since Deadly Aim definitely doesn't work with them, we'd be left with a blasting class that does anemic damage.

I really want this class to be good, but as far as my theorycrafting/character building has gone, these guys have TERRIBLE damage compared to other 3/4 BAB classes geared for range combat, and it just gets embarrassing when you put them up against full martials.

Kineticist at level 7 - 8d6+12 (40 damage) elemental damage versus AC at around +10 to hit with no buffs. This is using composite blasts and taking burn damage, so "going nova" so to speak. This is assuming that there will be a feat for more Wild Talents so the character can qualify for both Expanded Element and a Composite Blast.

Archer 1d8+10 (14 damage) Many shot plus rapid shot plus BAB attacks is 4 attacks, with the bonus to hit being +7/+2 for 3/4 and +9/+4 for full. This isn't taking into account ANY other bonuses from class features, like Bane and Judgments, Smite Evil, Weapon Training, Bardic Performances, Studied Combat, Studied Target, etc. Just archery feats (which, granted, is 4-5 of them, but the Kineticist needs PBS and Precise Shot anyway, so it's only a few more feats over what the Kineticist is already taking)

If you want to compare it to touch, it gets a lot worse. Gunslingers target the same AC, and do a ton more damage. Again, mostly because of Rapid Shot, BAB attacks, Deadly Aim, and weapon enchantments.

I do understand that this class has more stuff going on than pure blasting, so comparing it to Fighters/Gunslingers is a little unfair. But even comparing them to Bards/Inquisitors/Investigators they do less damage. Sure, those classes have buffs that they have a limited amount of, but it really isn't limited in actual play. And on top of all that they have either more skills, spellcasting, or both.

This class needs a lot of help.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Does anyone have playtest reports of this? I could see this being an issue, but I'm not fully convinced just yet.

Naah, we've decided to skip playtesting altogether so we could start up the pointless argument threads with no delay.

Silver Crusade

I would probably say if Vital Strike COULD be used, only the initial die would be modified, with the extra dice being (bonus damage). I could be wrong, but I remember hearing something to this effect somewhere else before. Though it could all be moot and it not work at all.

A lot of it depends on the wording of the ability, and functionality with said feats.


captpike wrote:

first as a point of clarification my reference for what level of power/usefulness is going to be a blaster wizard.

1) A Potentially crippling problem is resistance/immunity. If your blast does cold damage, then will be worthless if you fight anything with high resistance or immunity to cold damage. While not all the blasts have this issue, it is still an issue.
If you only have one power it NEEDS to work, I am not going to play a class that is made into a lodestone for the group because we are fighting to wrong kind of elemental.

So far I think Fire is the only element with this problem. A fix can be an ability that makes an explosion that damages with the shrapnel (piercing, blunt or both)

Quote:
2) why do I have to be Lv10 to fly if I am aether or fire but I can do it at 6 if I am air?

I'm perfectly okay with this. Each element should have it's own gimmicks and obvious advantages/weaknesses

Quote:
3) in order to compete with blaster wizards more forms are needed. they also all need to be usable by any element, so you don't have some elements that are all but unusable because you can't apply the "fireball" form to it. They also need to be low enough level so your not stuck attacking targets one at a time when the wizard is just fireballing everything. I would say by 3 you need a multitarget form, by 6 or 7 at the latest you need a true AOE form.

Don't some of them already have a few ways to have AOE attacks. I guess I'm going to have to read it again.

Silver Crusade

stoolpigeon87 wrote:


They will probably modify them to not work with Vital Strike, and since Deadly Aim definitely doesn't work with them, we'd be left with a blasting class that does anemic damage.

Why wouldn't Deadly Aim work? I could see the possibility of it not working, but what made you certain? All I remember is you can't utilize it with touch attacks... (except guns, because special) and I didn't think the kinetic blast was a touch...


You're right, I had a brain fart. It should work with the non touch blasts (though it doesn't help a whole lot, what with their terrible to hit).

And for those saying "playtesting is the only way to see if they are bad," I'd beg to differ. If we are looking at straight numbers, you only need to compare it to other classes, since those classes would be under the same circumstances as the Kineticist in most playtesting. Especially considering this class has very little to offer besides mobile blasting.

I'm not saying Kineticists look UNFUN to play. On the contrary, I think they look like a blast to play. It's just hard to get too excited about them when they look so mediocre at best.

Silver Crusade

stoolpigeon87 wrote:


I'm not saying Kineticists look UNFUN to play. On the contrary, I think they look like a blast to play. It's just hard to get too excited about them when they look so mediocre at best.

Ha. "blast."


One 'first glance' problem I have with the kineticist is that I am not fond of the Burn mechanic. Mostly I'm not used the possibility of having now HP and being able to take myself out of the fight by trying to end the fight. Its something that I have to play to see how serious of a problem it is but HP as a resource for your 'magic' sounds dangerous, (flavorful but mechanically dangerous). I feel like I'd want to be an elemental gish but the class will be relegated to a blaster with a ton of CON.


Malwing wrote:


I'm perfectly okay with this. Each element should have it's own gimmicks and obvious advantages/weaknesses

the problem is that fly is too good for it to be something only one element can do well, it might be ok if each element had a good mobility power at 6, and got everyone else's at 10 or something.

for example, air can gain fly at 6, everyone else can take it at 10.
aether can gain an at-will short range teleport at 6, everyone else can take it at 10.

Now that I think about it it might not be a bad idea to give everyone their element's mobility power for free at 6.

Also keep in mind that 6 is not early to gain fly, it in fact is the baseline level, the latest I would expect anyone to gain it. After all the generic jack-of-all magic (master of all) arcane class gains it at 5.


captpike wrote:
Malwing wrote:


I'm perfectly okay with this. Each element should have it's own gimmicks and obvious advantages/weaknesses

the problem is that fly is too good for it to be something only one element can do well, it might be ok if each element had a good mobility power at 6, and got everyone else's at 10 or something.

for example, air can gain fly at 6, everyone else can take it at 10.
aether can gain an at-will short range teleport at 6, everyone else can take it at 10.

Now that I think about it it might not be a bad idea to give everyone their element's mobility power for free at 6.

Also keep in mind that 6 is not early to gain fly, it in fact is the baseline level, the latest I would expect anyone to gain it. After all the generic jack-of-all magic (master of all) arcane class gains it at 5.

Well do the other elements have something as good earlier than air? (I ask because I don't have the playtest document in front of me. ) if so then I think that's legit. I don't think the class is entitled to flight specifically.


Malwing wrote:


Well do the other elements have something as good earlier than air? (I ask because I don't have the playtest document in front of me. ) if so then I think that's legit. I don't think the class is entitled to flight specifically.

In the area of mobility no, air reigns supreme.


captpike wrote:
Malwing wrote:


Well do the other elements have something as good earlier than air? (I ask because I don't have the playtest document in front of me. ) if so then I think that's legit. I don't think the class is entitled to flight specifically.

In the area of mobility no, air reigns supreme.

Well that's not what I asked. Of course air reigns supreme in mobility, thematically that just makes sense, just like I just assume that earth has way more defenses than the other elements and have no mobility abilities whatsoever. I meant something that is just as good as flying that air cannot do or replicate.

Lantern Lodge

captpike wrote:
Malwing wrote:


Well do the other elements have something as good earlier than air? (I ask because I don't have the playtest document in front of me. ) if so then I think that's legit. I don't think the class is entitled to flight specifically.

In the area of mobility no, air reigns supreme.

Well, Earth gets a situational climb speed (they can move their speed on earth or rock walls) at level 6, and an Earth Glide ability at level 10. Water gets a swim speed at level 6, and an overland flight ability at level 10. Fire and Aether get their rocket boots abilities, allowing functional flight at level 6 and no-action hovering at level 10.

So earth is the only one without access to some sort of flight; Earth Glide is arguably more powerful than flight. Ever take a 5' step down?


Malwing wrote:
captpike wrote:
Malwing wrote:


Well do the other elements have something as good earlier than air? (I ask because I don't have the playtest document in front of me. ) if so then I think that's legit. I don't think the class is entitled to flight specifically.

In the area of mobility no, air reigns supreme.
Well that's not what I asked. Of course air reigns supreme in mobility, thematically that just makes sense, just like I just assume that earth has way more defenses than the other elements and have no mobility abilities whatsoever. I meant something that is just as good as flying that air cannot do or replicate.

that would be comparing apples and oranges. How much damage is being able to fly worth? how hit is being able to make cast grease worth?

In precise mathematical terms (with the proof) how much is 10ft of flight speed worth in damage?

All elements should all have roughly the same mobility. Because mobility like durability is secondary. Only useful in that it can help you do your real role, damage.

Grand Lodge

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I definitely don't agree that the different elements need to be balanced in terms of mobility, even slightly. I'd rather they were actually very different and not all balanced around the same model so you get a different experience playing different ones. Some sorcerer bloodlines get fly, and some don't, there's no reason to treat these any differently.

That said, if earth did have something to help it move it should be earth glide. The only thing is I would limit the speed to something like half of base movement or it'll end up just as good, if not better than, as flight.


Athansor wrote:

I definitely don't agree that the different elements need to be balanced in terms of mobility, even slightly. I'd rather they were actually very different and not all balanced around the same model so you get a different experience playing different ones. Some sorcerer bloodlines get fly, and some don't, there's no reason to treat these any differently.

That said, if earth did have something to help it move it should be earth glide. The only thing is I would limit the speed to something like half of base movement or it'll end up just as good, if not better than, as flight.

This. If they were functionally the same the options don't really matter that much. Some are going to come out 'better' for practical or environmental reasons but I wouldn't want a class that has an five different options that amount to the same thing.


Malwing wrote:
Athansor wrote:

I definitely don't agree that the different elements need to be balanced in terms of mobility, even slightly. I'd rather they were actually very different and not all balanced around the same model so you get a different experience playing different ones. Some sorcerer bloodlines get fly, and some don't, there's no reason to treat these any differently.

That said, if earth did have something to help it move it should be earth glide. The only thing is I would limit the speed to something like half of base movement or it'll end up just as good, if not better than, as flight.

This. If they were functionally the same the options don't really matter that much. Some are going to come out 'better' for practical or environmental reasons but I wouldn't want a class that has an five different options that amount to the same thing.

why to people think that two things can't be different if they are the same power level?

all the elements should be about as moble as each other, just in different ways.

so at 6 air can fly, earth can burrow, lightning can teleport ect. What should NOT happen is having air getting fly, and then giving two others a gimped version of fly at a higher level.

teleport Vs fly Vs burrow would play very different, but would all be about as powerful as each other.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Not sure if anyone realized this, but the simple blasts all specify if they are a ranged attack or ranged touch. The "weapon" ones are ranged attacked for weapon type damages at 1d6+1 per 2 lvls + full con mod. The "magic" one are ranged touch for energy damage at 1d6 per 2 lvls +half con mod.


drowranger80 wrote:
Not sure if anyone realized this, but the simple blasts all specify if they are a ranged attack or ranged touch. The "weapon" ones are ranged attacked for weapon type damages at 1d6+1 per 2 lvls + full con mod. The "magic" one are ranged touch for energy damage at 1d6 per 2 lvls +half con mod.

yep you get to pick between damage and accuracy.

given how the forms work, you will of course want one of the higher damage ones for them, so most people will probably take the combined element thingy at 7 for that if they picked the ranged touch option

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
captpike wrote:

Also keep in mind that 6 is not early to gain fly, it in fact is the baseline level, the latest I would expect anyone to gain it. After all the generic jack-of-all magic (master of all) arcane class gains it at 5.

Yes but he gets it only as a limited resource spell cast, not an unlimited at will ability.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Athansor wrote:

I definitely don't agree that the different elements need to be balanced in terms of mobility, even slightly. I'd rather they were actually very different and not all balanced around the same model so you get a different experience playing different ones. Some sorcerer bloodlines get fly, and some don't, there's no reason to treat these any differently.

That said, if earth did have something to help it move it should be earth glide.

Which it does have available to it.

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