joeyfixit |
Silver Surfer wrote:These classes are geared to be viewed differently from the divine and arcane.... theyre psychic classes.... and as such you need to keep in mind theyre coming from a completely different directionEven if these are coming from a very different power source, they still need to fill a role in a party.
I came to the same conclusion as the OP when first reading the Kineticist: they are absolutely HOSED by DR. Not just elemental immunities, but also any sort of DR/Good/Evil/Lawful/Silver/Whatever.
Hosed?
All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the
purpose of bypassing damage reduction.
joeyfixit |
To elaborate, my understanding was that when a kineticist hits for
1d6+1 + your Constitution modifier. This
damage increases by 1d6+1 for every 2 kineticist levels you
possess beyond 1st.
That those bolded +1's are the effective enhancement bonus, which would max out at +10 at level 19, which coincidentally (or not?) happens to be the cap on enhancement bonuses. Is this not the case?
joeyfixit |
Uh, with regard to DR, the fact that the blast is Sp means that it ignores all DR anyway - only energy resistance/immunity would cause issues. Kinda makes the Rare Earth form useless, but meh.
My understanding was that the ranged attack blasts functioned more like a magic weapon and as such explicitly aren't blocked by SR, whereas the ranged touch attacks, which tend to do direct energy damage, function more like spells and as such are explicitly blocked by SR. And also are subject to energy resistance, but get around all other DR.
In the case of a tk/aether blast, I'm scratching my head because the spell that this SLA is most like (Telekinesis) does offer Spell Resistance and allows weapon damage.
Clearly we're into new territory here. I'd like some clarification from the dev as to why Carrieta's desk automatically bypasses all DR when she chucks it at a bearded devil with her mind.
Aratrok |
Uh, with regard to DR, the fact that the blast is Sp means that it ignores all DR anyway - only energy resistance/immunity would cause issues. Kinda makes the Rare Earth form useless, but meh.
Yeah. From the section on DR:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.
Even the "attack" blasts that deal normally physical damage types (like slashing or bludgeoning) ignore DR since they're SLAs. I'd presume their damage type is listed due to certain interactions with other special abilities, like some oozes' Split quality.
Enhancement bonuses cap out at +5, by the way, and provide accuracy in addition to damage.
Mark Seifter Designer |
Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?
Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.
Aratrok |
That's rather silly, considering Damage Reduction interacted with spells in the way I described in 3.x, and the rule wasn't changed in Pathfinder- so clearly the original intent wasn't any different. I think this is another case of the FAQ being incorrect (something unfortunately present in 3.x's run as well).
Maybe it'll change in future errata- which would be odd, considering there are five years of content written under the assumption that spells, SLAs and supernatural abilities don't care about DR, and that FAQ doesn't have the language indicating that it's just a warning about future errata that hasn't been printed yet- but the rules are as they are for the time being (unless you're in PFS, where the FAQ is treated as rules even when it's wrong for some unholy reason).
Mark Seifter Designer |
Helcack |
I assume DR doesn't work against burn, but it should be explicitly spelled out or all kineticist's will dip unbreakable fighter, and take stalwart/improved stalwart to take 0 burn at lower levels and 1/2 burn at higher levels which would make burn basically only limited by the technical amount of burn they can take per day.
Mark Seifter Designer |
I assume DR doesn't work against burn, but it should be explicitly spelled out or all kineticist's will dip unbreakable fighter, and take stalwart/improved stalwart to take 0 burn at lower levels and 1/2 burn at higher levels which would make burn basically only limited by the technical amount of burn they can take per day.
You are correct, in the same way it doesn't apply to the nonlethal damage from starvation. I will very likely call this out explicitly.
Ellias Aubec |
Hmm, didn't know about that FAQ. Still, I suppose that means you choose for a touch attack that ignores DR but not resistances or a ranged attack that ignores resistances but not DR.
How would that interact then with the composite blasts that have energy and 'normal' damage? Does the energy half count as ignoring DR, or is it an all or nothing effect?
joeyfixit |
March 2013 FAQ wrote:Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?
Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.
Ninja'd.
So, what is the effective enhancement bonus (to damage) on attacks? A static +1? Or that thing I said?
Arachnofiend |
Lavawight wrote:I don't think there is an enhancement bonus. I'm pretty sure the +1's you're referring to are just part of the normal damage.Okay, so the (non-energy) kinetic blasts have an enhancement bonus of zero? How does that get around DR?
It doesn't. A Geokineticist can get through the majority of DR but there's no way for anyone to bypass alignment DR, which is kind of a big deal considering the massive number of things that have DR/good.
Game Master |
DR/(anything) doesn't stop energy damage. Any of the pure energy versions of blast will just ignore DR. Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance, however...
Precisely. The energy damage blasts face even harsher restrictions than the physical damage ones.
Physical damage blasts are generally inferior against an enemy without special defenses (they don't get to hit touch), but when special defenses (energy resistance or especially immunity) comes into play, along with SR... you really need that physical damage option. But that option is hosed by anything with alignment DR... and stuff with alignment DR often has energy resist and SR too.
Force Blast is really the only one that negates most of these concerns, leaving SR as the only real line of defense.
Heladriell |
DR, Resistances and SR will always be difficult to deal with, that their intent. However, it seems to me that all kineticists would need 3 types of blasts: Energy (touch), Material(normal), and Debilitating. When one won't work, he can use another.
Examples:
Aether:
E) Force Punch: Energy direct damage (probably d4);
M) Thrown Object: Physical damage;
D) Telekinetic Maneuver: Vs CMD, debilitating.
Water:
E) Frost Blast: Energy direct damage
M) Water Blast: Physical damage;
D) Entangling Frost: Vs CMD, debilitating.
and goes on...
LazarX |
I have two questions on this class.
1. how many times do a kinetic is provoke aoo when he gathers energy and uses his blast?
2. Can he cast defensively and if so can he use the feat combat casting.
1. Twice
2. Yes but he'll still provoke once for making a ranged attack. He can cast defensively and use one of the melee options without provoking.Melkiador |
I like the idea of the class. Very Avatar. Burn is a weird mechanic that you are apparently supposed to ignore most of the time using gather energy and infusion specialization. I'm not a fan of having fort and reflex as the good saves. I'd prefer wisdom over both of them.
Is it just me or are the defensive powers all day affairs? Walking around the city in my ice armor at level two could be fun.
Melkiador |
Edit: apparently there is already errata for gather energy to only work on blasts.
Does kinetic healer seem a little too good? It's not that great of an in combat heal, but combined with gather energy its a scaling free heal once per round. Your party will pretty much never start a fight with less than full hit points. I wonder if it's not supposed to be combinable with gather energy?
Zwordsman |
Edit: apparently there is already errata for gather energy to only work on blasts.
Does kinetic healer seem a little too good? It's not that great of an in combat heal, but combined with gather energy its a scaling free heal once per round. Your party will pretty much never start a fight with less than full hit points. I wonder if it's not supposed to be combinable with gather energy?
that move action thing? clarified that it only works on blasts..
so I don't actually see any way of mitigating the burn for healing. Which is a bit weird consideirng you burn for character level and heal for class level. Ideally those are the same but..
Your not really healing yourself your just chunking off chunks and to heal.
Thats why I'm a fan of the idea of having seperate burn hp, that if you go over that then it starts hurting you proper. So you could use things like heal without it being somewhat hazardous/not that useful.
outside of your almost dying most other players wouldn't wanna take the burn to heal. and I think it's worded so you can't force a downed player to accept the burn?
dewcubes |
ive really liked this class so far. the only things i think could make it better is a full bab, feats that will get you more wild traits, and wild traits that will give you aoe attacks. but so far its been fun to play my eather build is going to have heavy armor and i would have really liked it if there was an arch type for kenetic fighter or something.
AlanDG2 |
ive really liked this class so far. the only things i think could make it better is a full bab, feats that will get you more wild traits, and wild traits that will give you aoe attacks. but so far its been fun to play my eather build is going to have heavy armor and i would have really liked it if there was an arch type for kenetic fighter or something.
Pretty much true: There should be AOE wild traits, and they should present some kind of Psychic equivalent of a Ranger or Paladin. This class should NOT have full BAB in my opinion.
Artanthos |
This class should NOT have full BAB in my opinion.
If not full BAB, then some other method of hitting versus normal AC needs to be available.
As stands, 10 level characters are looking at +11 - +13 to-hit bonuses, while using Feel the Burn. That an ~40% miss chance versus the average AC of 24 if you are a geokineticist or made the mistake of choosing a physical attack on another element.
In comparison, my magus has a sustainable +16 to-hit bonus at 8th level.
Mark Seifter Designer |
It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
Artanthos |
It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
Another optimization pass on my aerokineticist, with a stronger focus on dexterity and the presumption of an Extra Wild Talent feat.
Ditched the armor: Dexterity bonus starts limiting armor bonus, even with mithral armor. Kinetic Form (air) + Shroud of water generate 3 points of burn at the start of the day, giving full Feel the Burn bonus.
I am unwilling to dump stat any further than this, and would be very uncomfortable with a 6 strength if she actually carried any weight.
Thoughts
- This level of optimization would not be possible with a geokineticist. The element that has no touch attack.
- Lack of enhancement bonus to attack hurts the geokineticist far more than the other elements.
- No costs associated with armor or weapon leaves entire WBL for wondrous item.
- The more I pushed for increased to-hit, the higher my AC became.
- Updated Image to reflect always on defenses.
Insain Dragoon |
It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
22 Dex at level 6?
Also not liking that so many people are assuming Gnome like it's standard. It shouldn't matter overly much what race someone is using, so assuming small or a SLA that qualifies Arcane strike should not be assumptions for this class.
Gorbacz |
Mark Seifter wrote:It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
22 Dex at level 6?
Even if his Dex was 20 and he wasn't Small, it's still +12 to hit at level 6, which is pretty much the same as an optimized full-BAB without Power Attack.
Insain Dragoon |
Insain Dragoon wrote:Even if his Dex was 20 and he wasn't Small, it's still +12 to hit at level 6, which is pretty much the same as an optimized full-BAB without Power Attack.Mark Seifter wrote:It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
22 Dex at level 6?
13-2=11 not 12
+11 attack Damage of 3d6+6= 16.5 With a move action you can add a 1 Burn Infusion.
Average AC of common CR battles for a level 6 character
CR6 19 Need a 8
CR7 20 Need a 9
CR8 21 Need a 10
CR9 23 Need a 12
18 base Dex and a +2 belt of Dex wouldn't be out of the question at 6, so this seems ok.
It seems that for a Kineticist you really need to aim for Dex over Con as your highest stat in order to be accurate. With a relatively lower CON the Burn damage is kinda scary. Wisdom also needs a bit for fear of saves. You will be wanting PBS, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, and Improved Precise shot as soon as their available.
How well does the math hold up at higher levels like 15? Since at that point a lot of other classes have class features and enhancement bonuses lending them accuracy.
Question: You can't use your move action to reduce burn on empower can you?
Melkiador |
Take a goblin monkey. You can start at 1st with a 22. What I don't like is the assumption that you are starting off with your max bonus in FtB. I don't want to shot myself in the foot to keep up.
I get where you are coming from but it's such an integral part of the class that we probably can't expect it to be changed now. This is the burn class. This class does most of its thing with burn. That's just the way it is.
snags |
Would splinter weapon feat work with tk blast to cause a bleed
Splintering weapon
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1, proficient with weapon, weapon made of primitive material.
Benefit: Whenever you use a melee or thrown weapon with the fragile weapon feature or similar quality and hit an opponent, you can give your weapon the broken condition to deal that opponent 1d4 points of bleed damage.
Heladriell |
It wasn't the one in the group I've been playtesting with, but I've seen a kineticist get up to +15 at level 6 after FtB (+4 BAB, +1 size, +1 focus, +1 PBS, +6 Dex, +2 FtB) on its own before party buffs. That would be +13 before FtB, easily keeping pace with the magus in your example. For reference, that hits a CR 6 monster on a 4, or a CR 9 boss on an 8.
Size bonus shouldn't be considered standard, being small can't be required to be useful. +6 Dex is also not really common at level 6, and, most important: feel the burn can't be computed as a reliable normal bonus to attack, it is a last resort.
We can't expect a class to keep hurting itself every day just to hit enemies; it is he thing to be done when nothing else works and a great sacrifice is needed IMO.
Artanthos |
We can't expect a class to keep hurting itself every day just to hit enemies; it is he thing to be done when nothing else works and a great sacrifice is needed IMO.
With persistent defensive abilities that grow stronger with burn, FtB becomes reliable and desirable to a certain point. Standard practice will have the kineticist burn himself first thing in morning while the caster's are preparing spells for the day.
Heladriell |
Heladriell wrote:We can't expect a class to keep hurting itself every day just to hit enemies; it is he thing to be done when nothing else works and a great sacrifice is needed IMO.With persistent defensive abilities that grow stronger with burn, FtB becomes reliable and desirable to a certain point. Standard practice will have the kineticist burn himself first thing in morning while the caster's are preparing spells for the day.
And that is the problem with it. A class shouldn't be required to constant self flagellation just to be on par with the others. The amount of "free from damage" burn points/day should at least be equal to the amount required to activate feel the burn. That way it would be a sane choice (give up the "free air" points to have a constant bonus or keep them to use in battle).
The whole idea of daily self inflicted pain seems very degrading to the class. This should be used only in the most dire situations.
Desha |
GinoA wrote:DR/(anything) doesn't stop energy damage. Any of the pure energy versions of blast will just ignore DR. Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance, however...Ok everyone, the next AP we are playing is WoTR
Don't play a pyrokineticist! One of the guys at our game shop played one last week and he was totally worthless. He could barely even deal with the tiefling mooks!
Artanthos |
That is somewhat mitigated by the class's Con focus. Artanthos, what's your effective hp after taking that burn in the mornings, compared to other classes? I can see how it might be an issue if Kineticist is dropping below average d6 hp just to remain relevant.
83 at 10th level after burn. Exactly the same as my other d8 characters normally have. The focus on CON mitigated the burn damage needed to get full benefit from FtB.
Artanthos |
Artanthos wrote:Don't play a pyrokineticist! One of the guys at our game shop played one last week and he was totally worthless. He could barely even deal with the tiefling mooks!GinoA wrote:DR/(anything) doesn't stop energy damage. Any of the pure energy versions of blast will just ignore DR. Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance, however...Ok everyone, the next AP we are playing is WoTR
Electricity would be even worse.