If the phantom were super mobile (like, its movements didn't provoke AoOs at all or something), then maybe it could act as a flanking buddy for the party frontliners and sneak attacker? Or channel energy with the phantom as the point of origin? Or have the phantom harm enemies it passes through with otherworldly energy?
I'd love to see the spiritualist gain powers akin to what is made available to the oracle via the ancestor mystery. That to me speaks more clearly to what this class is trying to achieve thematically.
If the phantom were super mobile (like, its movements didn't provoke AoOs at all or something), then maybe it could act as a flanking buddy for the party frontliners and sneak attacker? Or channel energy with the phantom as the point of origin? Or have the phantom harm enemies it passes through with otherworldly energy?
I'd love to see the spiritualist gain powers akin to what is made available to the oracle via the ancestor mystery. That to me speaks more clearly to what this class is trying to achieve thematically.
I agree wholeheartedly. The Spiritualist needs to be more tightly integrated with his specific phantom. 2 x Skill Focus isn't enough mechanically or thematically.
snip
I recognize that; a bad touch caster is what I think the Spiritualist should be, not what the spiritualist is right now. It would take a pretty extensive rewriting of the spell list to include strong debuffs like Calcific Touch and Ghoul Touch.
snipI recognize that; a bad touch caster is what I think the Spiritualist should be, not what the spiritualist is right now. It would take a pretty extensive rewriting of the spell list to include strong debuffs like Calcific Touch and Ghoul Touch.
Even then the save would not be there in the way you need it. And even then, this class is SoL when it runs out of its relatively small number of higher level spells.
(Snip) That doesn't really change the fact that the Spiritualist lacks a defined role in the party. I still like it as a touch spell based caster, delivering them through the phantom.
This is how I envisioned the Spiritualist on first reading. The spell list seems way too small and too lacking in touch based spells though. Worse, the Spiritualist can't actually use the phantom to deliver touch based spells until s/he is 3rd level. I would prefer this ability to be available at 1st level.
Having re-read the deliver touch spells mechanic, I could see how this class feature (with the addition of more powerful touch spells) might carve out something that this class does better than others, but it'd be gimmicky, in my mind. Maybe if the range was just line of sight or the phantom moved faster? I don't know...
I think I'd like to see the phantom get some form of dimension hop, helping further distinguish it from non-teleporting pets and providing an on-flavor mechanic that would give the spiritualist a slight, but much needed edge. Honestly, I can't place my finger on what exactly this class needs, but it definitely needs something.
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I only glanced at spiritualist, but there was no way for Phantoms to possess objects or creatures so far is there?
I only glanced at spiritualist, but there was no way for Phantoms to possess objects or creatures so far is there?
Not that I recall, but I like your thinking.
I agree with people who would like to make spiritualist different from summoner. When I first heard about the class I was hoping for something like aetherurgist oracle archetype. Maybe your phantom can behave as a catalyst for summon other phantom buddies and haunt the whole battlefield.
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To put this into context I have wanted to play a Summoner type character for a long time. However I just find the Eidolon rules too complex and unwiedly. Its far too much options to calculate here and there.
So when the spiritualist came along I thought Id give this version a Try.
I had my first game last Saturday with my Nagaji Spiritualist. I decided on the Anger Phantom (although it was honestly a contest between that and the Hatred one). The Phantom is actually the Nagaji ancestor of the Character who was so disgusted at what Foreigners were doing to the traditions of where he was living that his Anger overode his honor and he slayed them to the last. He in turn was killed but his Anger does not allow him to rest).
I think it fits perfectly as a concept class for the Xian Ti ethos and I try to portray two different versions of the character.. one where the character is being inhabited he tends to through tactics to the wind and charge in or do something rash. When the Spirit is fully manifested he is calmer and more inclined to be sociable.
I was quite surprised by the classes limited spellcasting ability and I think the spell list could do with some work, Ill report how it goes at level 2.
I would ask that you please dont add too much complexity to the Phantom. What we have now is more than enough.
Okay, this is too late for me, unfortunately, but if you're planning to make a phantom under the current playtest rules, I think something like this is the way to go if you want to do damage. This assumes a fortuitous WBL at level 7 and everything poured into the combat gear listed below. Also, you only have one level 3 spell/day at 7 so this is for one combat only unless you're carrying scrolls (that you can't realistically afford).
Very much a best case scenario.
Spiritualist (@L7)
Str 10 Dex 18* Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10
Traits: Militia, ????
Feats:
L1: Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise
L3: Weapon Focus (Kukri)*
L5: Butterfly's Sting
L7: Outflank**
Gear: +1 Keen Kukri, +1 Mithral Shirt
(assuming Haste, Heroism and Hated Target is up)
+11/11 (1d4+1 15-20/x2)
+16/16 (1d4+1 15-20/x2) when flanking
Phantom (Hatred) (@L7)
Feats:
L1: Weapon Finesse
L3: Weapon Focus (Slam)
L6: Outflank
Gear: Belt of Dex +4, +1 Agile AoMF, Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone
(assuming Haste, Heroism and Hated Target is up)
+18/18/18 (1d6+13 x2)
+22/22/22 (1d6+13 x2) when flanking
Basic idea: Always be flanking to take advantage of Outflank (+Militia trait bonus for the Spiritualist). Try to crit with the Kukri to pass it on to the Phantom via Buttetfly's Sting.
I estimate the Phantom's DPR at around 49.3 without taking into account any bonus crits from Butterfly's Sting.
The list of cons here is pretty long. It's an RP straightjacket to make the class work mechanically: you have to choose the Hatred Phantom, you have to worship Desna. You're still terrible prior to level 7. It still doesn't account for DR, which will drop the Phantom's DPR back to Golarion (35 for DR5, 19 for DR10).
Anyway, it's a shot at making lemonade.
*You could go Str over Dex and use a Scythe, but then your AC and Reflex saves will be necessarily terrible. I think trying to damage with the Spiritualist himself is a losing battle.
**You could also retrain into Outflank at 6 if you don't want to wait.
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Gear: +1 Keen Kukri, +1 Mithral Shirt(assuming Haste, Heroism and Hated Target is up)
+11/11 (1d4+1 15-20/x2)
+16/16 (1d4+1 15-20/x2) when flankingPhantom (Hatred) (@L7)
Feats:
L1: Weapon Finesse
L3: Weapon Focus (Slam)
L6: OutflankGear: Belt of Dex +4, +1 Agile AoMF, Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone
(assuming Haste, Heroism and Hated Target is up)
+18/18/18 (1d6+13 x2)
+22/22/22 (1d6+13 x2) when flanking
Having chosen the Hatred spirit, you get another feat at level 1. I suggest Piranha Strike :D
Having chosen the Hatred spirit, you get another feat at level 1. I suggest Piranha Strike :D
I left it out in that summary but Piranha Strike was included in my DPR calculations.
As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
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As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
Sure. They were put in the wrong place. They should be on the 3rd level list. That is all. Don't be surprised if you see something similar in a future version of another class.
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As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
It is so weird. I feel like SRM was really great about explaining his thought process in the ACG playtest. He is so silent in here, though. Is he waiting for us to discover some dark secret that makes the class good or make bonded manifestation viable?
It is deeply frustrating when I just don't see what this class is meant to do and the only edits to the class are making it weaker. It sucks because I tend to really like "pet" classes and this is conceptually a really neat new one. With the class how it is, I think we are ultimately going to see a lot of people building this class because it is cool and then really having to struggle to contribute to the party in the way the other members are.
Granted, there is a lot of room for creative solutions here and perhaps we are seeing the class being played close to the vest to make up for that, but shouldn't a class have a defined role in combat? All the challenge adjustment stuff in most games are based around number of players and the level of those players. In pathfinder, most of that increase in challenge is seen in combat.
I mean: what happens when a party has a spiritualist and a rogue as two of its party members? Sure they can do stuff out of combat, but if you are adjusting encounters by traditional metrics then combat encounters are going to be too hard because those two characters are crap when the fight starts.
Edit: ha. I was typing this post over the course of like 30 minutes while working on things in another window and Stephen made a reply in that time.
Are we meant to adjust the phantom's ability scores with changes in size? Small would probable lose STR and gain DEX?
If so, would the anger phantom still be able to use power attack with STR score of 12?
Sure. They were put in the wrong place. They should be on the 3rd level list. That is all. Don't be surprised if you see something similar in a future version of another class.As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
Thanks, Stephen.
I know you've been burned by answering these kinds of questions before, but can we expect any kind of way to increase the Phantom's accuracy and damage beyond what's currently available to the class? Will there be any way for it to overcome DR beyond spending a feat on weapon proficiency?
Right now it requires a massive expenditure to make the Phantom viable in combat (recognizing that viability is subjective) and DR will invalidate its Strike abilities more often than not.
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Sure. They were put in the wrong place. They should be on the 3rd level list. That is all. Don't be surprised if you see something similar in a future version of another class.As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
Thanks, Stephen.
I know you've been burned by answering these kinds of questions before, but can we expect any kind of way to increase the Phantom's accuracy and damage beyond what's currently available to the class? Will there be any way for it to overcome DR beyond spending a feat on weapon proficiency?
Right now it requires a massive expenditure to make the Phantom viable in combat (recognizing that viability is subjective) and DR will invalidate its Strike abilities more often than not.
Right now I'm collating and taking stock of the class in its entirety. And I can tell you I'm looking at all of these issues and weighing the solutions. They will be resolved with the release of the class.
Right now I'm collating and taking stock of the class in its entirety. And I can tell you I'm looking at all of these issues and weighing the solutions. They will be resolved with the release of the class.Sure. They were put in the wrong place. They should be on the 3rd level list. That is all. Don't be surprised if you see something similar in a future version of another class.As expected, Slow has also been bumped to 3rd level.
Any kind of developer commentary on the direction of this class would be appreciated.
Thanks, Stephen.
I know you've been burned by answering these kinds of questions before, but can we expect any kind of way to increase the Phantom's accuracy and damage beyond what's currently available to the class? Will there be any way for it to overcome DR beyond spending a feat on weapon proficiency?
Right now it requires a massive expenditure to make the Phantom viable in combat (recognizing that viability is subjective) and DR will invalidate its Strike abilities more often than not.
Thanks again! I was very impressed with how the Investigator turned out so I'm cautiously optimistic for the final Spiritualist.
Meantime Nichael and Gob will have a time-out to think about what they've done.
What if Phantoms where point blank given the "undead" type instead of outsider ?
What if Phantoms where point blank given the "undead" type instead of outsider ?
That would more likely lead to in party conflict.
What if Phantoms where point blank given the "undead" type instead of outsider ?
They'd be a liability in undead campaigns because the party cleric couldn't channel, and every necromancer would try to take control.
What if Phantoms where point blank given the "undead" type instead of outsider ?
We looked at that, even went down that path in early design, and for a number of reasons we discard it. When we go through the second wave of design, we look again at all things, even the ones we dismissed, but I really doubt we are going to make the phantom undead.
I do have one last selfish and unreasonable request. Please find some way to add, remove, or alter a class feature that relies on an ability score so we'll have the option to retrain our Spiritualists in PFS.
As the Spiritualist doesn't really do anything well right now, I don't have much confidence that the feats, traits and abilities scores for the character I built will fit into whatever niche the final class carves out.
I'd also love it if the class could instead be Charisma-based, but I know that won't happen because Summoner.
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I do have one last selfish and unreasonable request. Please find some way to add, remove, or alter a class feature that relies on an ability score so we'll have the option to retrain our Spiritualists in PFS.
As the Spiritualist doesn't really do anything well right now, I don't have much confidence that the feats, traits and abilities scores for the character I built will fit into whatever niche the final class carves out.
I'd also love it if the class could instead be Charisma-based, but I know that won't happen because Summoner.
The biggest issue for me is still the 1 minute duration to manifest the phantom from the spiritualist's consciousness. It's simply too long to function with all of the other aspects of the class, including bonded manifestation and the phantom's 2 forms. But I'm afraid it won't be changed either because summoner.
I only glanced at spiritualist, but there was no way for Phantoms to possess objects or creatures so far is there?
Nothing in the playtest, but in the Know Direction podcast about Occult Adventures, Erik Mona mentions that there are rules for possession in the book (I would imagine based on material from the Council of Thieves AP). More thank likely there will be some means of having this happen I'd think- possibly an archetype or feat or something.
OK...here is another idea...what if the Phantom had full HD progression from level 1-20...then they would be a viable guardian for the Spiritualist....
OK...here is another idea...what if the Phantom had full HD progression from level 1-20...then they would be a viable guardian for the Spiritualist....
I am not sure if that would be "broken" but I would worry that the full base attack bonus would open up a ton of feats (both by the full BaB allowing it to qualify for more feats and the fact that more HD means more feats in general and earlier) that the designers might want to keep out of the hands of animal companions.
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Two part post:
FIRST:
When manifested, are Phantoms subjectable to damage effects such as: fatigue, exhaustion, nonlethal damage, thirst, starvation, or bleed effects?
Can they be effected by conditions such as: petrification, poisoning, diseased, or polymorphs?
SECOND:
it was mentioned that Phantoms did not receive the undead type due to party cohesiveness or unbalancing things, how about giving the Phantom something similar to what the Summoner can do for their Eidolon:
Undead Appearance (Ex)
An eidolon appears as an undead creature, and mimics some of an undead creature’s abilities and weaknesses. Negative energy heals the eidolon, and positive energy (including a cleric’s channel energy ability) harms it. Spells and effects that target undead or have specific effects against undead (such as Command Undead, hold (halt?) undead, and searing light) affect the eidolon as if it were undead. The eidolon gains a +2 bonus on saves against disease, exhaustion, fatigue, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
At 7th level, this bonus on saves can be increased to +4 by spending 2 additional evolution points. At 12th level, this protection can be increased to immunity against these attacks by spending 2 additional evolution points (the summoner must pay for the 7th-level upgrade before paying for this 12th-level upgrade).
Although the eidolon appears undead, it is still an outsider.
Or, if there is a concern about the party trying to cast spells on it or for clerics to channel around it, give the Phantom the hand wave treatment regarding some type of verbiage that makes it a unique snowflake amongst other Eidolon type pets:
Phantoms mimic many of the undead special qualities, however, they are treated as summoned outsider creatures and are not subjected to spell effects or channeling the same way as true undead. In addition, due to its tie to its Spiritualist, a Phantom can receive beneficial spells in the same way that the Spiritualist can.
Not strictly relevant, but I finally managed to retrain the Monk levels out of my L7 Investigator and play her last night. Utter blast to play, extremely useful member of the party without dominating in combat.
In particular, I love Sickening Offensive even though I only got to use it once. Things like that and Sapping Offensive are fun and interesting ways of having an impact on combat other than straight damage. I'd love to see the Phantom have access to effects in that vein.
That will also likely require some means of buffing the Phantom's ability to hit. Increasing its Dex is tricky, because an Agile AoMF converts that to damage which seems to be at cross-purpose to the intentions of the class. So maybe pure attack bonuses to allow them to land debuffs but not overpower with damage.
Anyway, just wanted to say again that my experience with the Investigator leaves me quite hopeful for how the final Spiritualist turns out.
I had a sorcerer take a level of spiritualist upon attaining 4th level... which leaves me with a question: Would the "Boon Companion" feat affect the phantom or is it stuck at whatever Spiritualist levels a character attains?
Etheric Tether ability has been typed as Etheric Link in the table. Doesn't appear to have been stated outright yet...
Then Bonded Senses has a spare s at the end... yeah, looks like the table needs a touch-up.
Ehh by far missed hte boat on this. but on the off chance anyones stil around~
How were people building these? I want ot make one but i'm at a loss of what to actually build towards. Other than a spear guy..
I would totally echo (far ot late to make any matter) of making them a touch master specialist. damage, status effects etc.
but. maybe add in a class feature that gives a scaling bonus to the DC's of touch spells used by the spiritualist and/or the phantom. Maybe even have it toggleable or have the player hcoose (or just both) to have it also help with to hit in general.Or at least give them some horror movie trop stuff. like banshee wail style stuff. Ear piercing scream, that cone one etc.
I'd love a 6lv offensive caster that wasn't magus styled. I mean there are a ton of 6 and 4 level buff style "magic" folks. but a lot less 6th level offensive styled caster.
You could do a teamwork feat build with Outflank, Broken Wing Gambit and Combat Reflexes, but it doesn't really come online until level 6 at the earliest, and even that assumes a moderate amount of retraining.
But really that's something the Hunter does a lot better.
Right now, it feels like a test bed for how much you can strip off the Summoner before the class becomes unusable. With the Eidolon/Phantom neutered physically, it is no longer a threat in combat. Without the Summon SLA, you can't bring in anything else that would be (you have Summon Monster on your list, but at 6th-level progression your summons will scale very poorly). Without Haste (until level 7), you don't have much to buff your phantom or offer your party.
The one really useful aspect (Phase Lurch) is situational and I am certain that will be limited to rounds/lvl in the release version.
As some have indicated earlier in this threat, phantoms are going to be fragile at higher levels. Compared with an animal companion, the have slower HD progression and much worse constitution.
At level 9, for instance, I calculate at most 63 hp if the "any" bump is put in Con - awfully low for a "front line" creature.
Animal companions have, in comparison, more HD at an equivalent level and get beefy constitution bumps in the low-mid levels. A wolf, for instance, with a bonus applied to con will have a constitutiont of 20. At level 9, they would have 84 hp (although certainly there are less beefy animal companions, the wolf is the archetypical companion in my mind and a decent point of comparison).
Maybe spiritualist spells and DR offset this a bit. DR/slashing is not great, as far as DR possibilities go - commonly overcome.
Does anyone know where I can get the statistics for spiritualist? Someone at my weekly game showed me the class and I was interested, but I never had the chance to make a spiritualist.
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I am sure I am missing it, other wise it is a horrible omission.
The phantom has no clause that says it can touch creatures protected by spell/effects that prohibit summons creatures. The Eidolon has that clause but I can't find it under the phantom section.
Without out the class is essentially nullified by a level 1 spell.