General Discussion: Occultist

[JRutterbush]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

For transmutation I get all the impliments

Base focus power: Pyscic weapon
Focus power sudden speed (the only option)

I put 3 resonance points into legacy weapon to make it Agile
I put 4 resonance points into my sandles for +10 feet of movement.

You only get one implement of each school you've chosen, which means only one resonance power. Since you only chose Transmutation once, you only get one Transmutation implement each day, which means you have to choose either Legacy Weapon or Quick Steps, you can't have both.

Quote:

Using The sudden speed power will burn points out of the sandles and make me go slower for the rest of the day.

Spells: Message and feather fall

Evocation

Base focus power Energy ray at 2d6
Focus Power: Shape mastery (so i don't set my party on fire)
Spells: Dancing Lights, Burning Hands

Resonance: nothing here worth spending points on yet.

Illusion:

Base Focus power: Minor Figment
Focus power: Unseen
Resonance: 3 points in a ring . I can take a standard action to gain a 10% miss chance until I attack, or save it to cast real invisibility via unseen.

A few problems with this bit.

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

You get the Base Focus Power of each Implement for free, meaning that you'd have Energy Ray, Minor Figment and Psychic Weapon, but other Focus Powers have to be chosen level by level. Sudden Speed, Shape Mastery and Unseen are all normal Focus Powers, so you have one more than you should.

Also, you can only spend invested Mental Focus on Focus Powers from the implement in which its invested (unless you don't invest it in any implement, in which case it costs double to use). Since you don't have any Mental Focus invested in your Evocation implement, that means you can't use Energy Ray or Shape Mastery at all.

Finally, I don't know if you forgot to choose them, or just forgot to include them, but you haven't listed your Illusion spells known.

[CEBrown]

JRutterbush wrote:

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

* SNIP *

Finally, I don't know if you forgot to choose them, or just forgot to include them, but you haven't listed your Illusion spells known.

I don't think this one was a mistake (or the poster you're quoting made the same mistake I did in reading the class) - it sounds like he took three Schools then chose implements from only two of them to get two Focus Powers from one, one from a second and none from the third.

The text SUGGESTS this is a valid build but I may be misreading it...

[BigNorseWolf]

JRutterbrush wrote:

You only get one implement of each school you've chosen, which means only one resonance power.

Hmmm Ok. I see "an implement" in a few places.

Quote:

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

Implements (Su): Starting at 1st level, an occultist learns to

use two implement groups. At 2nd level, and every 4 occultist
levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional
implement group, to a maximum of seven groups at 18th
level. Each implement group adds one school of magic to
the occultist’s spell list.

This really, really needs its own chart or something.

It also seems really odd that if you want transmutation abilities, your best bet is to wait to take the transmutation school until you qualify for the focus power.

Quote:

Also, you can only spend invested Mental Focus on Focus Powers from the implement in which its invested (unless you don't invest it in any implement, in which case it costs double to use). Since you don't have any Mental Focus invested in your Evocation implement, that means you can't use Energy Ray or Shape Mastery at all.

The occultist can choose to save generic mental focus

inside his own body, but spending this focus comes at a
higher cost. He can spend his generic focus through any
appropriate implement on any focus power he knows, but
he doesn’t receive any resonant powers, and any focus power
he activates with generic focus costs twice as much focus to
use (and to maintain, if applicable).

Quote:

Finally, I don't know if you forgot to choose them, or just forgot to include them, but you haven't listed your Illusion spells known.

Just forgot or got cut off in the paste.

[JRutterbush]

CEBrown wrote:

JRutterbush wrote:

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

* SNIP *

Finally, I don't know if you forgot to choose them, or just forgot to include them, but you haven't listed your Illusion spells known.

I don't think this one was a mistake (or the poster you're quoting made the same mistake I did in reading the class) - it sounds like he took three Schools then chose implements from only two of them to get two Focus Powers from one, one from a second and none from the third.

The text SUGGESTS this is a valid build but I may be misreading it...

Yes, you both seem to have made the same mistake. Each day, you choose only one implement from each implement group to act as your implement. The only exception is if you've taken an implement group more than once, in which case you need one implement per time you selected that group.

"Each day, the occultist selects an item from that list
to be his implement for the day. The occultist needs only
one such item to cast a spell of the corresponding school,
unless he selected that implement group multiple times, in
which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained
from that group."

[JRutterbush]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

First, you only get two Focus Powers, not three (one at first level, one at second level). You get three Implements, but your number of Implements known and your number of Focus Powers known are tracked separately.

Implements (Su): Starting at 1st level, an occultist learns to

use two implement groups. At 2nd level, and every 4 occultist
levels thereafter, the occultist learns to use one additional
implement group, to a maximum of seven groups at 18th
level. Each implement group adds one school of magic to
the occultist’s spell list.

Yes, you learn two implement groups. You only learn one Focus Power, then you learn another Focus Power at level three. Like I said, they're two separate things.

Quote:

This really, really needs its own chart or something.

I don't see why? It very clearly lists the levels that you get a new implement group, and the levels that you get a new Focus Power. They have different names and everything.

Quote:

It also seems really odd that if you want transmutation abilities, your best bet is to wait to take the transmutation school until you qualify for the focus power.

You could also just wait to take a Focus power from that implement group until you meet the prerequisites. You don't have to have a Transmutation Focus Power right off the bat, you could take two Evocation, two Illusion, or one of each instead.

Quote:

Quote:

Also, you can only spend invested Mental Focus on Focus Powers from the implement in which its invested (unless you don't invest it in any implement, in which case it costs double to use). Since you don't have any Mental Focus invested in your Evocation implement, that means you can't use Energy Ray or Shape Mastery at all.

The occultist can choose to save generic mental focus

inside his own body, but spending this focus comes at a
higher cost. He can spend his generic focus through any
appropriate implement on any focus power he knows, but
he doesn’t receive any resonant powers, and any focus power
he activates with generic focus costs twice as much focus to
use (and to maintain, if applicable).

I don't get what you're trying to say here. I know you can keep generic focus (I even pointed it out in my post)... but you don't have any generic focus listed: you have 10 focus, and you have 3 placed in Illusion, and 7 placed in Transmutation. That leaves 0 focus... so you have no focus in Evocation, and you have no generic focus, meaning you you can't use the Focus Powers you gain from your Evocation implement.

[BigNorseWolf]

Quote:

I don't see why? It very clearly lists the levels that you get a new implement group, and the levels that you get a new Focus Power. They have different names and everything.

You answered your own question.

Quote:

Yes, you both seem to have made the same mistake.

Two people reading it exactly the same way means somethings gone wonky.

"Base focus power" and "focus power" are literally 2/3rds the same word. That one comes free with with the implement and one has to be selected is kinda weird. Its the race trait racial trait thing all over again. Next thing you know the peoples front of judea is fighting the judean peoples front.

Focus Power (Su): Starting at 1st level, an occultist learns
to use a number of focus powers. At 1st level, he learns the two
base focus powers from his implements and can select one
more focus power from the list of those made available by his
chosen implements.

"Base focus powers" aren't given their own section. They're in the impliment section...

Taking an implement twice to get two different implements isn't explicitly allowed anywhere I can see.

An occultist can choose to select an implement
group more than once if he wishes, in order to learn more
spells from the same school.

That lets you take it twice but seems to be implying that all you get are the schools.

[JRutterbush]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Quote:

I don't see why? It very clearly lists the levels that you get a new implement group, and the levels that you get a new Focus Power. They have different names and everything.

You answered your own question.

What? No, I didn't. You said there should be a separate chart, but there doesn't need to be a separate chart.

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, you both seem to have made the same mistake.

Two people reading it exactly the same way means somethings gone wonky.

Two whole people, out of all the people who have read something, is not statistically significant. Yes, there is one other person who made the same mistake that you did. That's not wonky, that's just a random coincidence.

Quote:

"Base focus power" and "focus power" are literally 2/3rds the same word. That one comes free with with the implement and one has to be selected is kinda weird.

I don't see what this has to do with anything. Yes, the phrases are somewhat similar... because they're similar abilities. It's pretty easy to tell the difference, because one of them has a "Base" in front of it, making it easily recognizable as a different term.

Quote:

Focus Power (Su): Starting at 1st level, an occultist learns

to use a number of focus powers. At 1st level, he learns the two
base focus powers from his implements and can select one
more focus power from the list of those made available by his
chosen implements.

"Base focus powers" aren't given their own section. They're in the impliment section...

That's because it's easier to do it that way. Since the Base Focus Power is granted by the implement, as are the rest of the Focus Powers, as well as the Resonance Powers, it makes more sense the split them up by school/implement. The same way they did with, for example, Domains: they don't give you one section for each Domain's domain spells, then a whole different section for each Domain's granted powers, they put them together so you can see everything you get from a given Domain at a glance. They did the same thing. Unless you think Domain Spells and Domain Granted Powers are the same thing because they're in the same section.

And besides, they're still set apart in each individual implement group's entry. It lists Resonance Powers, then the Base Focus Power, then the normal Focus Powers.

Quote:

Taking an implement twice to get two different implements isn't explicitly allowed anywhere I can see.

An occultist can choose to select an implement
group more than once if he wishes, in order to learn more
spells from the same school.

That lets you take it twice but seems to be implying that all you get are the schools.

It then goes on to say:

"The occultist needs only
one such item to cast a spell of the corresponding school,
unless he selected that implement group multiple times, in
which case he needs one item for each set of spells gained
from that group."

I will admit that this is one area where they could afford to be a little more clear in their wording, and that line about more spells could be written better (I can understand someone reading it to imply that it only allows you to gain the spells, despite the fact that that's not the case).

To simplify things for you, when you put all the different sections together, you get (basically) this:

Whenever you choose an implement group, you gain a set of spells known chosen from that group's list (one per level you can cast), one Base Focus Power, and access to the implement's other Focus Powers when you gain a Focus Power based on your level. You must also choose one of that type of implement each morning to be your implement for the day, which you have to use to cast that implement's spells known. Finally, you gain the ability to invest Mental Focus into that implement to gain access to one of its Resonance Powers.

This is what happens every single time you gain an implement group, no matter which implement group you choose... even if it's an implement group you already have. You pick new spells known (which are tied only to that implement, even if you have another implement of the same type), must choose one of that type of implement as your implement for the day, and so on.

The Base Focus Power and access to the normal Focus Powers are redundant if you choose the same implement group twice, which makes it slightly less worthwhile to double-up on implement groups, but that's not necessarily a bad thing: the Occultist is pretty clearly meant to be something of a generalist, so trying to focus on one specific aspect of your abilities should have some diminishing returns.

[Raymond Lambert]

I am eager to play one of these.

I love the 5th level evocation focus to do a 20' radius blast that lets me choose the energy on the fly. I hate how vancian casting requires forcing an energy and shape into an inflexible slot. I love the versitility of being able to choose the energy as best suites the fight. Something we should.be.able to tell as an int based caster with knowledge skills. I love even more that we can do this in medium armor. I am even thinking of taking heavy armor proficiency as a feat or multiclass option since psychic spells have no worry of arcane spell failure. I also need not worry about a free hand for casting if someone wants to go sword & board, though I think 2 hander with the shield spell may be the way to go. Maybe a wand of shield with a spring loaded wrist sheath. I would love to see an archtype with heavy armor proficiency. The ability to shoot several blasts off several times a day helps relieve the 2/3 spell casting number of slots compared to a full caster. Similar to alchemist bombs streaching out the 2/3 spell progression. Having the blast auto scale in damage at no extra cost in point expenditures per use is another plus for me.

I also like that I do not feel a neccessity to spend a feat on an exotic or martial weapon. I am going to give martial weapons a try this time. Saving my Tien Weapon proficiency certs for alchemists.

I am not so sure being less than in the top 15% of gish is really a problem. I don't have a problem with letting some other classes shine in out damaging me. If anything, it gives me ammunition to shoot back with when people say I can do too much. I will point out how the versatility comes at the cost of excellence at any one thing. Consider we do get 2 good saves and 4+int skills in compensation. I knows skills are very weak but knowledge is power.

I am really looking forward to being able to 20' radius blast(energy choice chosen on the fly), use martial weapons with medium(heavy with feat) armor and shield, and heal. I do worry about being expected to waste all of my turns healing others though.

I am surprised the armor ability costs more focus points than the deflection bonus considering a deflection cost formula is more expensive.

I wonder how often people will just focus on only 2 focus powers and invest plenty of points into them so they can expend a bunch of points and still have those two foci in effect most or all day. Right now I am more concerned with having an 18 str to try to consistently hit and do very nice 2 handed damage at low levels than about squeezing out every point that I can. Especially with questions about how good transmutation is early one before you can usr a str boost. With 18 str, I don't need agile. Master work will be enough early on, ad I don't believe the enhance ment should stack on attack till it us at least a + 1 weapon, and questions on if the wrapons/armors/shields can even get +1 instead of an ability. I once again think.ibmay just save points for blasting multiple times a day.

While concerned about the very limited spells known early, I do appreciate the new skew on things and having more high level spells later. And at least a single selection opens spells for wands.

Please put something in early to prevent debate weather the conjuration power will work with augment summoning or not. And/or please add the usual suspects of the summon monster/nature's ally spells.

It would be nice if evocation base power gave a choice between a 30 foot Ray or a 15 cone, or 5 radius. That could make the shape focus power more useful. I currently plan to take shocking grasp instead of burning hands. Rather have the touch attack and/or burst damage of SG with spell storing. This.means my planed first level focus power of shaping will actually be useless till level five when I get blast.

I am worried the very limiting/few implements/focus.powers known early on may keep result in people never wanting to play one unless beginning at level three. I am useing GM credit in PFS to begin at level three and doubt I would ever play another unless I had a 3rd level start. I feel similar about the Inquisitor. Will never do another of those without starting at least at level 4.

Hope to see a revised playtest soon! Before my PC gets locked in PFS as I am skipping to level 3 on GM credit.

[cartmanbeck]

I still disagree with the assertion that you can only have a single resonant power from any given implement group (until you pick that school a second time)... the part that says "AN implement" is under the spellcasting section... as in you choose a single focus for your spells of that type each day. However, it says nothing about having to use only one implement for that type per day. In fact, Jason made a post that suggests that you can have multiple resonant powers (though he wasn't completely clear that they don't need to be of different schools): Jason's post

So I'm still working under the assumption that at 1st level, you can pick two or more implements from one of your schools and get a resonant power from each one, as long as you've invested some of your mental focus into that implement for the day. I do think a clarification of this would be helpful though.

[Michael Sayre]

So, I was playtesting the Occultist last night at level 13, and a few things became apparent:

The minion scaling is terrible in the latter half of the game. At level 13, the Necromancy power that gives you Advanced Giant Replicating human skeletons basically just gives you chumps you can use for flanking and soft cover. You may as well have a spell called wall of unusually large bunnies. Conjuration suffers from similar issues in that its summon monster ability is always giving you outdated critters and doesn't stack with the implement ability that would normally at least buff their duration a bit, so even though it's good at lower levels, it's actually progressively weaker than just casting the spell would be at every level past 10th.

As skill-monkeys, they're incredible. I had all of the "Rogue" skills like Perception and Disable Device maxed, nearly every Knowledge skill maxed, and was actually pretty good at Survival and a few other skills as well, thanks to the fact that Divination's "goggles o' see everything" are a must-have but the other abilities are mediocre enough that a magic compass was actually a solid choice. Divination is pretty much a must have at higher levels for the constant see invisibility and blindsense.

Basically, as I played the class I discovered that what I thought was going to be a great chassis for an intelligent controller was actually more of a mystical skill-monkey. His minion mastery just isn't up to par for combat purposes, his blasting is more for filling up those turns in combat when he doesn't have something better to do, like buffing, and I'm not convinced his free enhancement abilities, like the armor enchant from Abjuration or the Psychic Weapon ability, are really up to snuff, since they involve squirreling away a huge chunk of your resources for a single static boost. If there was more flexibility there, allowing you to a apply multiple bonuses for the associated focus cost, they might be a little more useful and attractive.

All in all, the class certainly isn't bad, it just wasn't really what I expected in the higher levels when it came down to combat performance time. In a party that included my Occultist, two Kineticists (Geo and Pyro), a Mesmerist, and a Medium, my most meaningful contributions over the course of two encounters where we fought a Rift Drake, a Cryohydra, a Pyrohydra, a Giant Mutated Lake Octopus, a Boogey Man, a Baykok (I think I spelled that right), and a Qlippoth, were to cast air walk on the Medium and Mesmerist, haste the party once, and provide a giant skeleton who landed exactly one attack for 7 damage and otherwise just served as flanking buddy for the Medium. While my Knowledge checks helped us identify the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents, the reality was that in most cases the group's capabilities were so focused that we probably would have done the same thing regardless of that information.

The Occultist kind of reads like Harry Dresden, but he plays more like Abraham Van Helsing (the one from the original novel, not the movie with Hugh Jackman).

[Mergy]

I'm looking at the Illusion ring resonant power, and I'm wondering if any level of concealment from it would allow for a Stealth check. If so, whew that's nice. Halfling occultist with a ring of "close enough to invisibility"?

[Michael Sayre]

Mergy wrote:

I'm looking at the Illusion ring resonant power, and I'm wondering if any level of concealment from it would allow for a Stealth check. If so, whew that's nice. Halfling occultist with a ring of "close enough to invisibility"?

Yeah, Distortion is really good. I think one of my favorite things about the Occultist is that every school has some really good options for him. I'm not as big of a fan of the fact that some schools have lots of reasonable but not spectacular options and some have one really amazing option and a bunch of mediocre ones, but there's a good reason to grab an implement from pretty much all of them.

[CEBrown]

cartmanbeck wrote:

I still disagree with the assertion that you can only have a single resonant power from any given implement group (until you pick that school a second time)... the part that says "AN implement" is under the spellcasting section... as in you choose a single focus for your spells of that type each day. However, it says nothing about having to use only one implement for that type per day. In fact, Jason made a post that suggests that you can have multiple resonant powers (though he wasn't completely clear that they don't need to be of different schools): Jason's post

So I'm still working under the assumption that at 1st level, you can pick two or more implements from one of your schools and get a resonant power from each one, as long as you've invested some of your mental focus into that implement for the day. I do think a clarification of this would be helpful though.

If this is NOT the intent, it needs to be worded more clearly because that was how I read it as well.

[Excaliburproxy]

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I am surprised the armor ability costs more focus points than the deflection bonus considering a deflection cost formula is more expensive.

The resistance bonus and deflection bonus from the two talismans will not stack with a cloak of resistance or a ring of deflection while the effect of Aegis improves the effects of armor in a way that stacks with existing enchantments.

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I am not so sure being less than in the top 15% of gish is really a problem. I don't have a problem with letting some other classes shine in out damaging me. If anything, it gives me ammunition to shoot back with when people say I can do too much. I will point out how the versatility comes at the cost of excellence at any one thing. Consider we do get 2 good saves and 4+int skills in compensation. I knows skills are very weak but knowledge is power.

My problem is that this class is not a better Gish than several existing FULL CASTERS. Here is my preliminary list of full casters with Gish potential and where I think Occultist falls:

Oracle
Druid (as a tiger or whatever)
Cleric
Shaman (maybe better/worse; must think harder; gotta use mammoth and battle)
Arcanist (maybe? It depends on how I am going to build it and whether I allow myself multiclassing and archetypes)
>>>Occultist 6/9
Wizard
Sorceror
Witch (is there a good fighting witch?)

In my reckoning, it is not even in the top 50% of Gish builds for FULL CASTERS who are also going to have better versatility through their full spell casting as well. I am defining "gish" by a casting class's ability to meaningfully hit enemies and deal damage.

Now to drop in my list with 2/3 casters included:

Warpriest (Maybe not a super great caster if you are readying only self buffs, though; also: yay fighter feats!)
Magus (hard to rank but it has that nuclear potential and can swift action buff accuracy for the attacks that really matter)
Investigator (studied combat exactly catches you up to fighter for the attacks you have under the right conditions)
Skald (You gotta take and use reckless abandon for this ranking)
Hunter (With feats, you can use your spells to buff yourself and your animal companion at the same time so you secretly have excellent buff/action economy with self-buffs cast in the first two rounds immediately having benefits for your pet moose or whatever; a weird case, though)
Oracle
Inquisitor (I am having trouble placing this; never made a serious build for this)
Bard
Druid
Cleric
Shaman
Arcanist (same caveats)
>>>Occultist 13/17
Wizard
Summoner (though this is obviously a weird case)
Sorceror
Witch

You can argue that a lot of this ranking requires specialized builds, but I would counter that the "good" occultist gish needs a specialized build (you're probably looking at needing transmutation, abjuration, and divination to get all the powers you really want).

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there all,

I've been away for a bit enjoying a long weekend, but I am getting caught up on the discussion here. Let me try and sort out implements and the selection process.

1. Starting at 1st level, you pick two groups (such as divination and evocation). At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter, you can pick one additional group.
2. Picking a group, adds the spells from that group to your spell list. In addition, you learn to cast one spell of each level for each group that you know, these are your spells known..
3. Each day, you pick one item from the list of implements for each group that you have. You need that implement to cast spells from that group.
4. You can choose to invest your mental focus in these items, in any combination that you want, including leaving some within you (which is "generic" and can be used on any of your chosen implement's focus powers, but at twice the normal cost). The amount you invest determines the effects of your resonant powers, but only as long as that power remains inside. Once spent, the resonant powers diminish.

If you pick the same group twice, you gain an additional spell known of each level that you can cast from that group. This increases as you go up in level. You must pick an additional implement (step 3) each day to use these extra spells. You can choose to invest focus in multiple items from the same group (step 4), granting more than one resonant power from the group (1 from each item).

I am hoping that sorts it out a bit. The language shifted pretty late in the design process here and I think there are a few bugs we still need to iron out. Note that it was never the design intent that you get a great deal of resonant power from all of your implements each day. You are supposed to pick and choose what is valuable to you and run with it.

Finally, I have opened up a thread to look at adding new implement types to the Occultist. You can find the thread for it RIGHT HERE.

Thanks again for all the great feedback folks. I am taking lots of notes and refining the class as we go.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Oceanshieldwolf]

@Jason - will there be a second playtest document?

[Jason Bulmahn]

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

@Jason - will there be a second playtest document?

I am not 100% sure as of yet, but right now it does not seem necessary. It does not appear that any of the classes needs such significant work to warrant a second round. That said, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

Jason

[Michael Sayre]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

...

I think there was some question as to whether or not additional implements from the same school also provided additional Resonance powers? My understanding is that yes, they do, but it seems like there is some confusion on the subject. Can you clarify that?

[Oceanshieldwolf]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Oceanshieldwolf wrote:

@Jason - will there be a second playtest document?

I am not 100% sure as of yet, but right now it does not seem necessary. It does not appear that any of the classes needs such significant work to warrant a second round. That said, this is not the thread for such a discussion.

Jason

Understood and apologies - just figured you might be checking this thread. ;)

There is a thread about it in case you were unaware.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Ssalarn wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

...

I think there was some question as to whether or not additional implements from the same school also provided additional Resonance powers? My understanding is that yes, they do, but it seems like there is some confusion on the subject. Can you clarify that?

I clarified this in the post above.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Michael Sayre]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

...

I think there was some question as to whether or not additional implements from the same school also provided additional Resonance powers? My understanding is that yes, they do, but it seems like there is some confusion on the subject. Can you clarify that?

I clarified this in the post above.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

D'oh! I somehow missed that on the first read-through. I must have just lost that last sentence in the clarification. Cool, thanks for the response!

[cartmanbeck]

Alright, so based on Jason's post above it sounds like you pick ONE and ONLY ONE implement for each of your chosen implement types each day, unless you choose an implement type a second time, in which case you get TWO implements of that type (and so on), and you get all the resonant powers of all your active implements that have at least one mental focus invested in it. Got it. :)

[Rebekkah]

Just played through pfs 5-08 the confirmation with a bunch of playtest characters, I was playing an occultist with a necromancy focus and ran into several questions.
I took the necromantic servant focus power. As other people have pointed out, it's fine at first level, but quickly falls behind being useful so hopefully that will get improved... but I digress. Two questions came up with this during play:

1- There is no range listed, when you use a focus point to raise a skeleton or zombie, how far away can you place it?
2- Can you raise multiple skeletons with multiple uses of the ability? There's a limit to the number you can control under the splitting power at level 13, but nothing saying you can't just spend multiple standard actions(and focus points) to raise multiple skeletons. It makes sense if you can raise an army of them, but I'm unsure on what the intent is.

I also had a soulbound puppet and ran into some questions with that as well:
3- if you spend all of the focus points infused into the puppet does it cease to be a creature and go back to an inanimate bone or whatever focus was used?
4- as a higher level occultist, as you spend focus points off of your puppet, do you need to recalculate it's abilities as it de-levels from losing focus? I assume yes, it just seems a lot of stuff to keep track of.
5- if your puppet dies do you suffer any of the usual familiar dying consequences? I'm assuming no as you just allocate focus to an item the next day and that makes a new one, but the waiting a week and paying money to restore a familiar is listed under the general familiar rules, and the puppet ability says as a wizard's familiar, so again I am unsure of the intent.
6- can an occultist with a soulbound puppet take the improved familiar feat?

[JRutterbush]

cartmanbeck wrote:

...and you get all the resonant powers of all your active implements that have at least one mental focus invested in it.

Well, not quite. To be specific, you gain access to all of the Resonance Powers of your implement(s), but you can still only choose one such power for each implement. You can't, for example, take an amulet for your Abjuration implement and get both the Guarding Talisman and Warding Talisman Resonance Powers, unless you took Abjuration twice, and used two different amulets, one with Guarding Talisman and one with Warding Talisman.

[JoelF847]

Jason, any thoughts on making occultist a full 9-level caster, or is that decision already locked in?

[Jason Bulmahn]

JoelF847 wrote:

Jason, any thoughts on making occultist a full 9-level caster, or is that decision already locked in?

The occultist is probably going to remain a 6-level caster. I'd have to strip out too much to justify going to 9 and as a result, the class would lose much of its flavor and focus. I'd rather spend my energy increasing the power and versatility of the various implements.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

[Excaliburproxy]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

Jason, any thoughts on making occultist a full 9-level caster, or is that decision already locked in?

The occultist is probably going to remain a 6-level caster. I'd have to strip out too much to justify going to 9 and as a result, the class would lose much of its flavor and focus. I'd rather spend my energy increasing the power and versatility of the various implements.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I know that I am kind of beating this drum a lot, but should this class even have all these martial options when they fall off so hard at later levels? Is there something I am missing?

I really like the sounds of you increasing the power and versatility of these abilities, though. I think that stuff makes the class interesting and would not mind that direction (especially considering all the martial/spellcasting options that I have already mentioned). However, medium armor and all martial weapons makes me think this class says "gish" on the tin when there is really a full casting alternative when I open it up.

[Michael Sayre]

Yeah, Occultist really seems to advertise one thing and deliver another, but I think that tweaking the implement powers up a notch would pretty much fix it on all fronts. I'd personally like to see:

The abjuration and transmutation abilities that let you add an enhancement bonus allow multiple enhancements. Maximum weapon bonuses are already built into the system, so just open this up so that each 3 focus points can be spent on +1 worth of enhancements in whatever combination you want. Make these worth taking.

Critters need to be boosted. Particularly Conjuration and Necromancy. Conjuration advances too slowly to be effective, and the templates the skeletons/zombies get from Necromancy don't do enough to boost to-hit, damage, and hit points. Even if they just got static bonuses and temp hp determined by level, they'd be better.

Divination and Illusion are actually pretty solid.

Evocation could be stronger, but choosing energy on the fly can situationally be pretty good. I'd like to see the basic blasting ability hit 10d6, though as it currently seems to scale just behind relevance (if it does and I just flubbed my math, let me know, I'm having trouble getting the .pdf to download to my phone).

[Excaliburproxy]

I might have an idea that addresses both your problems and mine, ssalarn. I think it is a decent silver bullet if I can pat myself on the back.

Maybe there could be an ability where you "attune" yourself with one or two particular implements that boosts their base focus powers and/or grants bonuses. This could be a permanent choice that you make at 5th level (and then maybe get a second at level 13 or something?)

Here would be my suggestions in reverse order:

Transmutation: Maybe you could just give a scaling competence bonus to attack and damage when your psychic weapon is active. (this would address a lot of my issues all in one fell swoop)

Necromancy: Change Mind Fear to effecting all enemies within 30 feet and give the Occultist channel negative energy and the ability to command undead with it. Gain animate dead as a 2nd level spell and create undead as 4th level spell. Maybe increase the power of certain specific focus powers. [this is a rough one]

Illusion: A scaling bonuses for DCs to disbelieve illusion spells and illusions created by focus powers. Minor figment "levels" with the occultist and allows him to replicate increasingly intricate spells (even though they still only last rounds per level).

Evocation: Energy ray and other damaging focus powers are increased to 1d6+2 for each flat d6 (which still puts them behind 1d6/caster level for average ray damage; may need adjustment to balance energy blast at lower levels). Add intelligence to damaging evocation spells and treat all damaging evocation spells as being cast with the intensify metamagic feat.

Enchantment: remove hit die limitation to cloud mind and increase the duration by one round at 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. Gain the ability to spend 3 focus power points to ignore mind effecting immunity.

Divination: The benefit of flash insight lasts for one minute (or it is expended) and may be added to one additional check at 8th and 16th level. [Watch out for this combined with the suggested transmutation ability]

Conjuration: Servitor lasts for minutes per caster level. At level 5, the occultist may spend one additional mental focus to cast the next highest summon monster. At level 12, she may spend two additional focus points to raise the spell by two levels. At level 17, she may spend 3 focus points to raise the spell level by 3. An occultist is still limited to "summon monster 9" as being the strongest summon monster spell.

Abjuration: The swift action version of warding shield lasts for one minute but no more than one warding shield may be active at the same time. The immediate action version of warding shield only requires 1 mental focus. Warding shield may instead effect an ally within 10 feet if you spend 1 additional point of mental focus. At level 10, you may spend 2 additional points of mental focus to effect an ally within 5 feet per class level. Energy shield is modified similarly.

[Edit]
Let me add this

Universal: You may use shift aura without cost 3+intelligence mod each day.

If he selects universal again at 13 (or whatever) and is thus really resisting specializing further:

Universal 2: You may use shift aura as a move action but doing so uses 1 charge of your daily free transfer. To transfer mental focus without cost as a move action uses two charges of the base universal ability.

[AlanDG2]

Jason did not yet clarify whether an implement that can fit in multiple categories, such as a staff that counts as both weapon and staff, can be chosen as the implement focus for both Transmutation and Evocation.

[Raymond Lambert]

I am personally worried about implements getting destroyed by sunder. Regular casters can just buy 3 spell component bags but I would hate to have an entire school shut down from not having a replacement. Almost makes choosing a school twice a little more appealing but nit fun if done as a needed tax. I would love to walk around with an animal skull as a part of shoulder armor but don't want it out in the open so easily to target & destroy.

I predict time wasted at tables where GMs & PCs argue about if you can put a +1 ability on a weapon/shield/armor before putting a magic enhancement bonus on it. Just to avoid arguments of people wanting to disagree, I would.love ammunition to shoot down either side in clear text.

[Doghion Abyndon Harbourne, Esq.]

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I predict time wasted at tables where GMs & PCs argue about if you can put a +1 ability on a weapon/shield/armor before putting a magic enhancement bonus on it. Just to avoid arguments of people wanting to disagree, I would.love ammunition to shoot down either side in clear text.

Jason answered this in the fifth post of this very thread. <shakes head>

[Get off my lawn]

I like the idea of a gish occultist (personal preferences), but right now they seem more of a utility class, and part skill monkey. Maybe an archetype will give a more viable gish option (they already have a sort of gish option). Another thing I like is the circles, and would love to see an archetype that expands and emphasizes them.

[Michael Sayre]

Get off my lawn wrote:

I like the idea of a gish occultist (personal preferences), but right now they seem more of a utility class, and part skill monkey. Maybe an archetype will give a more viable gish option (they already have a sort of gish option). Another thing I like is the circles, and would love to see an archetype that expands and emphasizes them.

I like the idea of the circles, but found them utterly useless in play. Maybe they're more effective when you get Fast Circles? But the games almost over at that point.

[JRutterbush]

Raymond Lambert wrote:

I am personally worried about implements getting destroyed by sunder. Regular casters can just buy 3 spell component bags but I would hate to have an entire school shut down from not having a replacement.

Do you mean losing out on your ability for the rest of that day? Because you can have as many things that can act as implements as you want, you can just only have one active at a time.

Quote:

Almost makes choosing a school twice a little more appealing but nit fun if done as a needed tax.

Unfortunately, that wouldn't help you much... at least not in this specific case. Each implement has its own set of spells that it grants. If you take the Evocation Implement twice, for example, and get light and burning hands the first time, then dancing lights and shocking grasp the second, you have to decide which implement grants you which set of spells. If you lose the implement that grants light and burning hands, you can't use your other implement to cast those spells, because that's your implement for dancing lights and shocking grasp.

It does mean you'll have to pay attention to your implements and keep them safe so you don't get some of your spell ability lost for a day... but that's part of the danger of playing an item-focused class. And having separate implements for each set of spells actually will help you there: sure, if somebody sunders your staff, you might lose your evocation spells for the day. But you could still use your transmutation or conjuration spells, and some of those can be used with implements that can't be sundered.

[AlanDG2]

As an aside, I have played my Occultist briefly in PBP, and have noticed one skill it does not seem to have, that of Healing. It seems an odd omission, since they have healing magic.

[Imbicatus]

AlanDG2 wrote:

As an aside, I have played my Occultist briefly in PBP, and have noticed one skill it does not seem to have, that of Healing. It seems an odd omission, since they have healing magic.

Healing magic and the heal skill are two completely different things and in this case it makes sense that the occultist has access to healing magic through the psychometric knowledge granted by an item's past instead of their own ability. If they want to have heal as a class skill, they can use a trait to gain that training, but it isn't something that all occultists would automatically have training in.

[Stafir]

Been so long since I've posted, but I've been in the playtest and figured I should give some feedback. Some of it has already been mentioned.

The transmutation Physical Enhancement thing, for instance. I've only just now found this thread (I don't check the forums often..none of the other players bothered to do so). So after some discussion, we figured the wording either needed to have 'prereq level 5', or to say additional +2 for every 5 levels. The DM decided to go with the latter (so +2 at lvl 1, +4 at 5, to a maximum of +10 at level 20). I have seen the previous mention in the thread to go with 'prereq level 5' interpretation instead (it only starts working at level 5).

We also had the issue with 'how many items can have resonance powers in them' question. The wording as written is too ambiguous, and I saw it re-written later (on page 8 for me). It still took me 4 or 5 readings, and to see other peoples reactions to it for me to finally get that, as a level 3 occultist, I have the following.

3 'picks' for implement groups (transmutation, transmutation, conjuration).
I pick 2 transmutation implements, and 1 conjuration implement a day. I cannot, for any reason, choose to have 3 transmutation implements if I so felt like it. Or 2 conjuration implements and 2 transmutation. I MUST have exactly 2 transmutation and 1 conjuration.
I then may shove focus into those 3 chosen implements as I wish.

If that is correct, then please change the wording, and spell out, explicitly, that you cannot choose more implements than you have picked for that group.

Finally a question I've recently developed. If you have transmutation, and you have a double weapon. How does it work as an implement? The simple ruling (and we played it this way) is that it is a single implement, and a single use of legacy weapon affects both heads at once. However given that normally the heads are enchanted separately when actually enchanting an item, it could be argued that technically each head of a double weapon should be a separate implement pick, and therefore choosing legacy weapon affects only 1 head. Though the corollary to that is that you may choose each head of the weapon as an implement, and stuff enough focus into each head to give each their own legacy weapon effect. One could even rule that the occultist is somehow able to choose how this works on a day by day basis.

On my end I could see it going any of the ways mentioned, and it being 1 item or 2, both have advantages and drawbacks. As a personal thing, I'd prefer each head being its own object for the sake of implement picks for the day. Though the occultist being able to choose how to handle this is the most powerful choice for the class.

With that said, my take on the class and my suggestions.

Overall I enjoyed it. I ran in pathfinder society playtests for this. We had 3 players and a DM (unable to drum up a 4'th player). All players had occult members. I've gone with different classes at my side. In all cases we all had Kira as the DMPC (because really..nobody is good at psychic healing).

But I've been with a Psychic, A mesmerist, and an earth Kineticist. (One was always pulled out, as they ran the mod, Kira was put in their place).

Being that NONE of the occultists classes are really much of a melee class, I chose to go a more melee route. Reach weapon, usually resonance to have merciful, four mirror armor, belt for the +2 enhancement to str. 16 bumped to 18 int as a half-elf.

I wound up, at level 1, with 16 str when wearing my belt. Giving me +3 to hit, 1d10+1d6+4 (two handing it) sub-duel damage. Which then sucked if I met something immune to sub-duel. But I had 8 focus in all, 3 in belt, 5 in weapon. So I'd pull a focus out of the weapon for psychic weapon which helped..slightly. Given that I had that armor on, and ok hitpoints, I did well enough as a tank, and when I hit something it went down, as long as it was capable of taking sub-duel damage.

When I hit level 2 I had finally gotten an idea for what I wanted, and the original character was just a modification of a build one of the other players was toying with. So I altered it to be more in line with what I wanted.

Still a half elf, his CHA has gone down to up his con a little more. Traded out half-elf skill focus to get weapon proficiency. He now uses a meteor hammer (thus the double headed weapon question), got a cloak of resistance to make up for some loss of resistances due to another choice, made my armor +1 armor for tanking reasons. Went Tranx2, conjuration, for my picks.

The conjuration came in good use in the very next mod we played, we played some gameday thing I can't remember the name of right now. I couldn't hit a thing, needed an 18 to hit, we knew going in it was a tomb so I had chosen 'ghost touch' just in case for my weapon enchant. Never came in use (nothing was a ghost, bad choice in my case), I had managed to finally cast a spell..as I spent most of my time not casting usually. I chose to enlarge myself..and pretty much became a living wall to keep the others alive. Kira turned undead which helped a ton, but was a big sack of meat boss. The mesmerist was there, did some sort of buffed evil eye he got as a special feature pick for mesmerist, and lowered the enemies to hit and damage due to that, he otherwise used aid another to my defense. The Kineticist was the one actually able to do damage for the longest.

I traded wands with kira for a bit, both of us using a cute light wand to heal myself, and I had to bring Kira back from negatives as she chose to get into melee. After a few rounds I realized 'hey, this undeads AC is high..how hard is he to touch?' and started trying to cure light on him...and that is how I finally started to do damage to the undead in that fight.

It did end with us winning..but my characters main use that entire mod was that I had built him for survival, he couldn't hit a thing, but he could survive being hit decently.

My overall impressions. I love the ideas behind the class...but they feel too limited. I never want to use my focus powers more than twice because if I do I suddenly lose my resonance.

Weapon resonance feels like too broad a category. Same with armor.

The spellcasting feels limited. Or rather too limited. And it feels like I'm losing too much neat stuff elsewhere in order to have spellcasting. I'd rather be able to do more with items, instead of just having spells. Though I'm trying to be the melee for most of my groups, so that does color my perceptions.

The ability to hand off enhanced stuff is nice..but then I lose all my spells for that implement. So I feel encouraged to not do it. Plus I lose the focus abilities for that item.

notice wrote:

After I wrote what comes next I sadly realized something.

I think this overall feels too complicated to be put into pathfinder. But I'm leaving all of this here, in hopes that they'll at least spark ideas of what more occultists could do, to have interesting options. And will help improve it overall.

With all of that said, my suggestions.

First..yet another 8 hp, medium bab, class. In a book with nothing higher? On the guy who is fascinated by items of all sorts with grand histories?

Lets just have fun, I'm grabbing ideas from a few classes I've seen..that I think work here.

Implement groups: Being of specific spell groups...as someone else said its underutilized design space. While I'd personally prefer it massively re-written, I'll keep it based on that idea. By the way I hope the current spell list is just a temporary thing and you do plan to add more. With that said I'd suggest taking a few and removing them from specific groups. Wands, staves, scrolls. For every group..with a caveat.

Focus: Up the amount of focus, lower the cost of some resonance abilities, allow any implement within a group you are trained in to be used, as long as it has focus. There is a caveat, but I'm saving it for later. But it has a bit to do with spells.

Weapons: It does not need to be part of a group of implement. Legacy weapon, Psychic weapon. perhaps even Aegis. Need to be something all occultists can do. Instead have what weapons (maybe even armor) they can effect decided on by what implement groups they have chosen. Have necromancy? You know how to resonate scythes, daggers, and other associated weapons. Conjuration? I'd personally go with blunt weapons, just to give a more 'clericy' feel to them.

Do not be afraid to overlap, who cares if necromancy gets scythes, and something else gets all 2 handed weapons...just make sure necromancy's other bonuses make up for it.

Oh yeah, while on the subject of weapons, change BAB to poor (like what a psychic or wizard gets), yes I have a reason. Some of you may have guessed it already.

Ok let me hit the big part..this has a lot to do with resonance, to do with weapons, to do with items. And this is the 'big change' to things in my opinion.

Spell casting ability, still a spells known list, but has no 'spells per day' slot.

Feel free to keep spells known restricted, I have a way around it.

Some resonances the occultist is the only one who has access to them. In fact may take a focus power to gives others access to resonance period.

New resonance for weapons. Gain a BAB progression based on the weapon. Some may give full, other's may give more clerical BAB.

New resonance for wands/staves/scrolls. In order for this to work, the spell on it must be of a type based on your implement group pick. So if it's cure light..you must have a conjuration pick. Also you must have 1 pick of its type for each spell level of the spell. So cure moderate, being a level 2 spell, requires to conjuration picks for this to work.
The holder of the item adds one spell on it, that qualifies for this ability, to their list of spells known.

Add one for rods that gives metamagic somehow.

New item resonance power, no idea what items exactly but...
This resonance power is also a focus power. You spend focus from the item to use this resonance power, you may not spend focus from anywhere else. Cast a known spell of the items impliment group, spell level, and amount of focus spent will probably actually depend on the item.

New item resonance power, like above you spend focus in the item to use it. Add known metamagic feat to spell cast.

And finally I'm running out of steam, but two more focus powers. One that all occultists get by default, and it should have a high focus cost (like 5 focus at cheapest). Spend X focus to cast a known spell. This is meant to be a fallback way to cast, instead of the main form of casting for an occultist. This is why its expensive, you use it when you prepared incorrectly and really need a spell you don't have access to. More focus spent, higher level the spell is.

The other focus power, spend X focus to add a metamagic feat you know, to a spell you cast. Again high cost as a fallback.

[Kalan]

Shisumo wrote:

Can an occultist take Expanded Arcana? It seems like they should, but what would happen to that extra spell or spells known? Would they need to assign it/them to an implement? Would they be unable to cast them because they wouldn't have an implement?

The questions above don't seem to have been answered.

If an Occultist took Expanded Arcana would he be able to cast the spells with his chosen implement or would he need a second implement to cast those spells?

If he took the feat at 5th level when he could cast 2nd lvl spells and chose to gain 2 1st lvl spells would he have to chose them both from the same school or could he add 1 spell to 2 different schools.

Example 1
Transmutation: Mending(0), Enlarge Person, Feather Fall, Magic Weapon(1st), Spider Climb(2nd)

Example 2
Transmutation: Mending(0), Enlarge Person, Feather Fall(1st), Spider Climb(2nd)
Conjuration: Create Water(0), Cure Light , Unseen Servant(1st), Cure Moderate Wounds(2nd)

[AlanDG2]

Imbicatus wrote:

AlanDG2 wrote:

As an aside, I have played my Occultist briefly in PBP, and have noticed one skill it does not seem to have, that of Healing. It seems an odd omission, since they have healing magic.

Healing magic and the heal skill are two completely different things and in this case it makes sense that the occultist has access to healing magic through the psychometric knowledge granted by an item's past instead of their own ability. If they want to have heal as a class skill, they can use a trait to gain that training, but it isn't something that all occultists would automatically have training in.

No one has automatic training, but it seems odd it is not a class skill, if you train in it it is going to be well behind your numerous class skills.

[Jesuncolo]

I can say I can't understand the flavour of the occultist. It doesn't resonate to me as anything in particular, I can't understand it.

Could someone explain it a little better?

What's the difference between this and a wizard?

[Deadmanwalking]

Jesuncolo wrote:

I can say I can't understand the flavour of the occultist. It doesn't resonate to me as anything in particular, I can't understand it.

Could someone explain it a little better?

What's the difference between this and a wizard?

An Occultist is a dabbler, really. He certainly knows about magic, but he doesn't precisely cast it himself. No, he has toys. He scrounges up items that allow him to supplement his otherwise mediocre to nonexistent magical capabilities. In terms of precisely what he does in terms of the world, he's using psychometry to find objects with the right resonance and then forcing that resonance out into magical effects.

Thematically, he's not personally a spellcaster per se (though he is mechanically), he's a guy with amulet that can shield him from harm, or a wand that throws blasts of deadly energy, and who always seems to have another magic item up his sleeve. He probably has more in common with the Alchemist than the Wizard, with both relying on devices (extracts and implements, respectively) to provide them with magical effects that others can mostly get something like with magical items...but free of the cost that carries in gold.

[Zwordsman]

I think an archetype that uses almost solely Sigils might be awesome.

Like in the vein of supernatural, hellblazer, etc. Carve/tatoo/draw runes all over your body.

Some really cool sigil runic spells.

Though maybe that would be a bit much for this set up

[AlanDG2]

Zwordsman wrote:

I think an archetype that uses almost solely Sigils might be awesome.

Like in the vein of supernatural, hellblazer, etc. Carve/tatoo/draw runes all over your body.

Some really cool sigil runic spells.

Though maybe that would be a bit much for this set up

I am playing a character who is a variation of the Sorcerer who uses the "Ultimate Magic" Words of Power system, using runes as a focus (each work he knows is a rune in his pouch of runestones). You might consider something similar.

I am wondering what words of power any class that came after Ultimate Magic would know, the system seems to have never been used again...

[AlanDG2]

Jesuncolo wrote:

I can say I can't understand the flavour of the occultist. It doesn't resonate to me as anything in particular, I can't understand it.

Could someone explain it a little better?

What's the difference between this and a wizard?

First, you need to compare to the right class, an occultist is very little like a Wizard, because they do not memorize spells, they do use weapons, and do wear armor.

The closest thing I have seen to an Occultist is a Magus with the Eldritch Scion Archetype (from the Ultimate Class Guide).

A Magus gains their spells by revelation via psychometric induction...which is a fancy way of saying they get it from objects. They have no spell book, no study requirement. They are more like a Sorcerer than a Wizard.

They do not take spell penalties for wearing armor, they can cast spells with their hands full and their mouths bound.

At low level, a Magus will likely beat a Wizard due to having better weapons, armor, and hit points, as well as a similar number of spells.

At high levels, the Wizard's top end spells will slowly turn the tide in their favor. Until at least level 5, however, he Magus should be a better character in most situations.

[Beckman]

So here's my feedback so far:

What is this class supposed to do?

Look at the other 3/4s focus classes in the game. Magus, Alchemist, Summoner, Hunter, ect. I feel like I have a reason to take them. They DO something better than taking a Cleric or a Druid. If I took a Cleric or Druid I would get 9 levels of casting, 3/4 BAB and some random powers. If I take a Magus, though, I can cast spells through my weapon and eventually nova people for huge damage. A warpriest can buff up with Cleric powers faster than a cleric, gets some domains and can smash face.

It just feels like these resonant power are the ONLY thing they get to do that's special, and it doesn't make up for them having 3/4ths BAB. I tried to make a fighter, and he's just bad compared to a regular fighter. EVEN AT FULL FOCUS. It seems like some of the best things I could do would to be make a saves based character.

You also start out with a VERY NARROW starting spell list that upgrades to a slightly less restrictive restricted spell list. It's a million times worse than the Bard's spell list. A bard is actually easier to make a fighter than this class, since it has access to all the buffs it wants.

As it stands now, I can't find a reason to play this class that another class doesn't already have. It has an identity, but it's just very weak. One thing that entrances me about this class are the focus powers. They are very good, but you get so few of them. If you got more of these powers it might make the class more playable - you would have more options that would make the class more distinct. Maybe change this to something like 1st level, 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter.

The focus powers seem like what this class wants to do, and Focus already limits what you can do with most of them. I think the class could do for some more options. A feat to let them take another focus power with an implement they know would also be welcome.

Last, I want to talk about my favorite power for this class - Distortion - and how by my reading you have to be level 16 before you can get permanently invisible? 5%+5%/2levels? harsh. I really would like to play this character. It's such a cool concept. If I had my way, it would be 25%+5%/level after level 1. Which would mean you could permanently invis yourself at level 6. Which I think is by no means game breaking. The invisibility aspect is explained so much that I want to play it... But then it's snatched out of your reach by a level limit. I WANNA BE FRODO :(

[Jesuncolo]

Quote:

An Occultist is a dabbler, really. He certainly knows about magic, but he doesn't precisely cast it himself. No, he has toys. He scrounges up items that allow him to supplement his otherwise mediocre to nonexistent magical capabilities. In terms of precisely what he does in terms of the world, he's using psychometry to find objects with the right resonance and then forcing that resonance out into magical effects.

Thematically, he's not personally a spellcaster per se (though he is mechanically), he's a guy with amulet that can shield him from harm, or a wand that throws blasts of deadly energy, and who always seems to have another magic item up his sleeve. He probably has more in common with the Alchemist than the Wizard, with both relying on devices (extracts and implements, respectively) to provide them with magical effects that others can mostly get something like with magical items...but free of the cost that carries in gold.

Quote:

First, you need to compare to the right class, an occultist is very little like a Wizard, because they do not memorize spells, they do use weapons, and do wear armor.

The closest thing I have seen to an Occultist is a Magus with the Eldritch Scion Archetype (from the Ultimate Class Guide).

A Magus gains their spells by revelation via psychometric induction...which is a fancy way of saying they get it from objects. They have no spell book, no study requirement. They are more like a Sorcerer than a Wizard.

They do not take spell penalties for wearing armor, they can cast spells with their hands full and their mouths bound.

At low level, a Magus will likely beat a Wizard due to having better weapons, armor, and hit points, as well as a similar number of spells.

At high levels, the Wizard's top end spells will slowly turn the tide in their favor. Until at least level 5, however, he Magus should be a better character in most situations.

Thank you for your explaination, now I can see the class with a greater focus. That's a good concept!

[Broxxigan]

Conjure Implement (Sp):

Conjure Implement (Sp): You can expend 1 point of mental focus to conjure any item that qualifies as an implement that you know how to use. This implement can be used as the item in question, functioning as a masterwork version of that item, but it can also be used to cast your psychic spells, even though you did not select it at the beginning of the day. If you have more than one implement for the same school, decide which set of spells the conjured implement will grant when you first conjure it. The implement cannot be used to store mental focus or create any effects that require mental focus. The implement lasts for 10 minutes per occultist level you possess.

-----

With the Conjure Implements focus power, can you create implements made of special materials (Adamantine, Silver, Cold Iron, etc)?

[Zakos]

I've played around with the Kineticist, Medium, Mesmerist and Occultist. So far the Occultist has my favorite flavor, I've always wanted to play a character that just had a whole bunch of magic items.

Obviously, the implement powers are the key to balancing this class and making sure it's fun. So, here is an idea I had for a change to the Spirit Shroud Resonant Power.

New Spirit Shroud:

Spirit Shroud (Su): The implement protects its wearer’s life force with necromantic energy. When the bearer of this implement deals negative energy damage with a melee touch attack, the bearer receives a number of temporary hit points equal to half the damage done. The shroud can store a maximum of 2 temporary hit points for each point of mental focus invested in the implement (to a maximum of 2 hit points per occultist level you possess). These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. You can use this ability only with a robe.

I think this helps fix two issues with the Necromancy implement group.

• Just getting some temp HP seemed a bit underwhelming
• The Occultist's Necromancy spell list is rather small, and the Inflict line occupys a lot of space on that list. This should make those spells worth taking, as we all know that they are not efficient ways of dealing damage

Thanks

[dragonkitten]

So the only class I've used in the playtest is the Occultist. It has a lot of things that make me happy just at first blush. 4+ int skill points and intelligence is important for the class? Sign me up please. They also have martial weapon prof and decent amor profs. I really enjoy the different implements and how they can be used to get different effects. I had a couple of times where I spent focus to move faster and get to help an ally. The object reading is just lots of fun; even if someone else can cast detect magic and find out stuff faster.

I only feel like it needs one more thing to really make it a solid class. It needs a rug to really bring the room together. I just don't know what that rug is yet. I was thinking perhaps the Occultist who are proficient with Transmutation implements get something like the Living Monolith with the Ka stone. Perhaps they can spend focus to get a full base attack bonus for a minute. I know it would cause more math for the player, but then the player can feel like they are more committed to the fighter side of the Occultist.

On the other hand perhaps a more caster focused Occultist could get access to spells they would not be able to use otherwise. Someone who is proficient with perhaps illusions implements. They can spend focus to cast a spell outside of the implements they know.

It's just ideas I guess.