General Discussion: Occultist


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Raymond Lambert wrote:
I was going to go without weapon focus this time, something I never did on any other weapon swinging character before, but with excalibur proxy constantly ranting about how poor of a combatant the occultist is, I thought I better grab that extra +5% chance to hit.

To be fair, the class does really quite well in combat at low levels with the transmutation implement and ability. It just deteriorates hard as you level up. It would be one thing if it just was not a great fighting man, but it is quite another thing that the optimal low level build is martial when those choices are punished at higher levels. I suppose that I could say the same about the bard to a certain extent, but his attack bonuses do eventually scale to a +4 (not great but okay) and he can still contribute pretty well if he spends his first round on a party buff and uses his second round swift action to quicken stronger self-buff of one sort or another. This class's accuracy buff caps at +1, though. And even if it scaled, the accuracy bonus would tend to be outmoded by the normal enhancement bonuses of your weapon.


Wonder what kind of Focus you could get from armor as one of your items...?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Since trapfinding seems often asked for, what if it was a resonant power for either abjuration or divination? Say, granting the ability to disarm magical traps as well as a bonus on Perception checks to spot them equal to +2/+3 per point invested in the object? Or perhaps, a bonus on Disable Device checks to disarm traps? Just a thought...would let people who want to get into some trapfinding have it, while those for whom it doesn't fit their concept can just avoid it.


CEBrown wrote:
Wonder what kind of Focus you could get from armor as one of your items...?

One of the abjuration focuses: Guarding Talisman. Let me get +2 deflection to ac from my cloak, which was otherwise non-magical. Essentially a ring of defense +2 for free, which is very nice.


Thanatos95 wrote:
CEBrown wrote:
Wonder what kind of Focus you could get from armor as one of your items...?
One of the abjuration focuses: Guarding Talisman. Let me get +2 deflection to ac from my cloak, which was otherwise non-magical. Essentially a ring of defense +2 for free, which is very nice.

And now I realize I misread. The focus for implanting in armor gives armor enchantments, similar to the transmutation focus does for weapons.


Luthorne wrote:
Since trapfinding seems often asked for, what if it was a resonant power for either abjuration or divination? Say, granting the ability to disarm magical traps as well as a bonus on Perception checks to spot them equal to +2/+3 per point invested in the object? Or perhaps, a bonus on Disable Device checks to disarm traps? Just a thought...would let people who want to get into some trapfinding have it, while those for whom it doesn't fit their concept can just avoid it.

Sounds good to me. Trapfinding seems a perfect fit for a divination implement, like a dowsing rod or a scrying pendulum.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I'd like to see an ability for the occultist where they could take a spell they know and imbue it into a mundane item that could be used by others in the party, a use once item. Maybe have this tied to mental focus?

My mental image of this class involves an adventurer with a lot of baubles and trinkets.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

enrik wrote:

I'd like to see an ability for the occultist where they could take a spell they know and imbue it into a mundane item that could be used by others in the party, a use once item. Maybe have this tied to mental focus?

My mental image of this class involves an adventurer with a lot of baubles and trinkets.

I see something like this perhaps best expressed as part of an artificer archetype with this ability being one among several others to round out the concept.


Just curious. Will there by any chance be a sort of improvised focus archetype or feat? I'd love to be able to "Macguyver" magic into existence with whatever's in my pocket.


It would be interesting to have more crystal-based implements. Crystal Healers in real life claim to use their crystals to solve emotional and physical problems. This NEEDS to be integrated into the Occultist class, or at least have a rule that you can use anything thematically appropriate with due significance as an implement.


Desnos wrote:

It would be interesting to have more crystal-based implements. Crystal Healers in real life claim to use their crystals to solve emotional and physical problems. This NEEDS to be integrated into the Occultist class, or at least have a rule that you can use anything thematically appropriate with due significance as an implement.

Never mind, I saw what Jason posted earlier, and problem solved. Use my post as inspiration for your occultists *snap-point and tongue-click*

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

Great comments everyone. I can say with confidence that a few of these thoughts line up with some of my plans for the final iteration of this class.

Time is winding down now on this play test. Just one hour left. Final thoughts?

Jason

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I'd love to see this class have some limited way of accessing spells that aren't on its spell list. The drawback would be that doing so requires an extended ritual, costly material components, and the chance of failure. Of all the classes in the game (not just the playtest), the occultist more than any other could convincingly execute a ritualist type of caster. I think 3.5's Unearthed Arcana incantations were along the vein of what I'm envisioning, though I don't have the materials in front of me. "Ritualist" could, of course, be an archetype (and perhaps should be; trading out the martial angle for more versatile, but cumbersome spellcasting).


I like the concept behind this class so much. I love the concept of an occult detective or an occult expert in fiction (especially in the works of Mike Mignola) and I just want it to get its fair shake. I have said what I am going to say on mechanic though, I suppose.


I liked the alchemist. I adored the investigator. I hope the final build of the occultist can inspire me with concepts in a similar way.

As for one mechanical bit left, at early levels using focus powers seems like a bad idea to me when you get more reliable buffs from keeping the focus in your implements. Some way to make focus powers more worthwhile at early levels (either giving you more to work with, making them easier to use, or giving you a way to earn it back when you've spent it) is the best I can recommend.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like the idea of an occultist quite a bit. To me, they seem like a more modern incarnation of a wizard, one less proficient with magic, but that's because they live in the real world, needing the skills to operate in the real world and kick some ass, instead of dwelling in an ivory tower where magic is their everything. A bit more occult and mystical with their psychometry and magical circles, but that definitely fits some portrayals of magic-users, especially urban ones.

My main concerns, I believe will certainly be addressed by the final version...many more spells to pick from in the final version, and the resonant and focus powers being buffed a bit more, especially focus powers, given that you're lowering your power for the rest of the day as your resonant powers become less powerful to do so. I also really like the concept someone mentioned of being able to burn spell slots and get extra focus points.

Also, given the occult and semi-ritualistic feel of the class (investing power in items, drawing magical circles, etc.), I think they should totally have black tentacles.

Grand Lodge

Double Implement Dipping

I know the playtest is over, but I have been playing a Dwarven Occultist 3 (Abjuration/Transmutation x2) and I’m trying to make sure what I am doing is correct. With regards to ‘double-dipping’ into the same implement category, I looked for the answers but I’m wanting to make sure.

1. How does ‘double-dipping’ affect the resonant powers? Or does it just add more spells (bottom of page 33)?

2. Can you normally place mental focus (if you have enough) into two implements of the same category without having to ‘double-dip’ (Example: Aegis placed on fullplate AND shield)?

3. Or does it have to be 2 different resonant powers for the focus (Example: Legacy Weapon on waraxe and Quick Steps on boots)?

4. Or would you need to ‘double-dip’ to do either?

5. Am I overthinking this? Or?

My dwarf has fullplate, a heavy shield and a waraxe. Ideally, I would like to have Aegis on the fullplate and the shield and Legacy Weapon on the Waraxe. I’ve been playing him with Aegis just on the fullplate and Legacy Weapon on the Waraxe. But am I shorting myself by taking Transmutation a second time and not putting any focus into a second Transmutation implement when I am allowed to?

(I do know I can shift any focus to another implement at level 4, losing 1 focus in the process.)


To my knowledge (Helped by Jason's post on page 8):

1. It lets you choose two resonant powers in addition to the spells.

2/3. No. If you choose transmutation once, you get a single implement and one resonant power per day.

4. Yep. See above.

5. Its D&D there's no such thing as overthinking

So basically you're running it right as you are. If you've chosen transmutation once, you can buff a single item. If you choose it twice, you can buff up to two items.

Grand Lodge

Dagnabit,

I didn't go forward or back enough! Thank you!

Dark Archive

I think it would be nice to have something like invest X points for resonance and have 1/2 of those investment points as "fire off points" to activate abilities without lowerig your resonance investment.

Silver Crusade

Aother idea that can to me as I read the last couple of pages: Could add the enhancement bonus of weapon or armor to the total mental focus in the item... call it resonant focus?


smaller chance of anyone seeing this but. Anyone know if there was any stated changes like ther was for mesmerist and kineticist?
I looked first page or two but didn't see anything so figure i'd ask
Huh. no magic missle

Scarab Sages

Based on what Jason said earlier in the tread, there will be some changes to the class. I don't know if there will be anything posted here like Mark is doing for the mesmerist and kineticist though.

Sovereign Court

Mark didn't post changes for the Mesmerist (it's not his class), that was Logan Bonner.

Scarab Sages

Sorry, I was thinking Medium instead of Mesmerist.

Sovereign Court

Ah, I had thought so, but wasn't sure as Mesmerist has had the most positive official changes so far.

Shadow Lodge

With the necromancy servant power, it gets the simple advanced template then simple giant template. Do these stack or do you choose one when summoning the servant?

Dark Archive

I know it is way late but still wanted to add these suggestions.

Since it is tough to determine if the feat for extra MF should be for 1, 2, or 3, please consider letting the feat power it self up. Similar to skill focus that begins at +3 and boosts to +6 if you have 10 ranks. The extra mental focus feat could boost itself up with an extra point or two when the Occultist Class level(or caster level) is maybe, 6, 10, 15? Another way is like the feat for extra power points where you get something like 1 point the first time, and 2 points the second time for a total of 3. Then 3 points the third time for a total of 6.

I would also like to.see a feat where we.could get more MF but it is only.for investment, not expenditures. It would give.more mf than a feat that gives mf that can be used anyway.

The reverse, a feat where we only get a greater number of mf that can be expended, not invested would.also be.nice. Maybe tie it to a specific school when taken it so it can be expended on a one for one scale as opposed to the two for one scale on non designated "open" focus points

Scarab Sages

Forgive me if this has been addressed upthread. I just found this thread.

I really like the Occultist, and am eager to play one (and I am undaunted by those who complain of the name having been used elsewhere - this is the rightful Occultist, I say!). My one significant issue, based on the playtest PDF, is that the spell list strikes me as too skimpy at high levels for some schools, namely Enchantment, Illusion, and (especially) Necromancy.

Has this been improved since the release of the playtest PDF? I think (for example) that it would be reasonable for Occultists to get horrid wilting as a 6th-level spell rather than just mass inflict moderate wounds, since, for comparison, Summoners get maze and incendiary cloud as 6th-level spells, and the 5th-level Occultist Necromancy list should DEFINITELY have more than one spell!

Honestly: If I'm a high-level Occultist with enemies approaching on all sides, shouldn't I, of all characters, be able to raise the Skull of Mictlantecuhtli high above my head as black lightning leaps from it and and reduces them all to shriveled husks with mouths frozen in screams of terror?

Sovereign Court

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Forgive me if this has been addressed upthread. I just found this thread.

I really like the Occultist, and am eager to play one (and I am undaunted by those who complain of the name having been used elsewhere - this is the rightful Occultist, I say!). My one significant issue, based on the playtest PDF, is that the spell list strikes me as too skimpy at high levels for some schools, namely Enchantment, Illusion, and (especially) Necromancy.

Has this been improved since the release of the playtest PDF? I think (for example) that it would be reasonable for Occultists to get horrid wilting as a 6th-level spell rather than just mass inflict moderate wounds, since, for comparison, Summoners get maze and incendiary cloud as 6th-level spells, and the 5th-level Occultist Necromancy list should DEFINITELY have more than one spell!

Honestly: If I'm a high-level Occultist with enemies approaching on all sides, shouldn't I, of all characters, be able to raise the Skull of Mictlantecuhtli high above my head as black lightning leaps from it and and reduces them all to shriveled husks with mouths frozen in screams of terror?

While your comments aren't unfounded, the currently listed spell list is apparently by no means meant to be a comprehensive list. Conjuration also has some pretty significant problems (no summoning spells) with only what was given in the playtest.

Scarab Sages

I'm actually onboard with Occultists not getting summon monster (at least not by way of Conjuration Implements) - it's not like everyone should have to get them, and the Conjuration school offers enough other good things for them to do without (and they get another kind of monster-conjuration ability through Conjuration Implements anyways). Heck, wouldn't it be nice to have a class that tended to deliberately emphasize the underappreciated portions of each magical school, so we could see them used in strange and unusual ways?

Sovereign Court

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
I'm actually onboard with Occultists not getting summon monster (at least not by way of Conjuration Implements) - it's not like everyone should have to get them, and the Conjuration school offers enough other good things for them to do without (and they get another kind of monster-conjuration ability through Conjuration Implements anyways). Heck, wouldn't it be nice to have a class that tended to deliberately emphasize the underappreciated portions of each magical school, so we could see them used in strange and unusual ways?

Except they have a resonant power for conjuration (Summoning Focus) that works to extend [Summoning] spells... Which they don't have.


Why do Occultists get binding circles? They are the combat psychic class, I cannot figure out why it's an occultist class feature aside from the fact that d20 Modern's occultist (which seems like it was a giant influence on the class) had the ability to bind creatures.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Why do Occultists get binding circles? They are the combat psychic class, I cannot figure out why it's an occultist class feature aside from the fact that d20 Modern's occultist (which seems like it was a giant influence on the class) had the ability to bind creatures.

Because John Constantine, Harry Dresden, and the other thematic antecedents of the Class make extensive use of such circles. It's designed to reflect a very particular fictional archetype, as well as for mechanical viability.

And I thought Medium and Kineticist were the psychic combat classes.

Liberty's Edge

Proficiency with all martial seems to imply "I am a combat specialist." That said, though, I agree with you; the occultist does make a phenomenal skill monkey, but only a 2nd tier combatant.

Scarab Sages

Proficiency with more weapons rather than fewer is part of their larger picture: A consummate master of items. Actually, maybe what I'd have done is make them proficient with all simple weapons and finite number (10 sound reasonable?) of martial and/or exotic weapons of their choice, to reflect the class's affinity for odd and exotic items.

Rather than view classes with clunky category-goggles, what we really need to recognize is that, while one could draw similarities here and there, each class is its own unique role. It's the more expansivist, rather than reductivist, way to think of the game, and such expansivist thinking is what enables the game to be played to its full potential (as opposed to just pen-and-paper World of Warcraft).


I'm still working my way through this massive thread, so I may have missed where this was asked and answered.

If an Occultist loses or breaks an implement, he has to make a concentration check to cast a spell that that implement opened up. That makes sense. And since implements can be comparatively common objects, albeit objects with some personal or historical importance, replacing a broken implement doesn't seem too problematic. (As a GM, I'd say that the Occultist needs to wait until the next day's implement selection to select the new implement, with the result that for the rest of the day of the implement's loss the PC has to make concentration checks, but that's not a huge issue.)

But one of my players pointed out something that isn't completely spelled out in the playtest.

When an Occultist replaces the lost or damaged implement, it could be argued that new spells from the implement's schools could be selected instead, in a manner similar to the Sorcerer's ability to swap out known spells at certain level milestones.

Let me be clear: I do not believe that this is possible under either RAW or RAI. However, the my player (who by his own admission makes a regular study of rule loopholes, corner cases, and similar 'grey areas') made a reasonable argument for it, so I'm sure that other, similarly-inclined players will come up with this angle.

Under this theory, an Occultist could completely re-select the spells known through a given implement simply by destroying his own implement at the end of the day, having a replacement ready, and making a new spell selection in the morning. Again, I do not believe that this is correct, and don't think it should be.

But I do think some text should be added to the implement section clearly stating that replacing a lost or broken implement does not allow for altered spell selection.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Because John Constantine, Harry Dresden, and the other thematic antecedents of the Class make extensive use of such circles. It's designed to reflect a very particular fictional archetype, as well as for mechanical viability.

I shouldn't have to read specific book series to understand why x class has an ability. It should just be fitting for the class, and I don't really see how it is. I can't really see any reason why a occultists that aren't abjuration and conjuration based would ever really use the circles.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
I shouldn't have to read specific book series to understand why x class has an ability. It should just be fitting for the class, and I don't really see how it is. I can't really see any reason why a occultists that aren't abjuration and conjuration based would ever really use the circles.

It's not a specific book series, those were just some examples (from a book series and a comic book respectively...though both characters have also had TV shows, now that I think about it). It's a fictional archetype common in urban fantasy, and certainly not unknown outside it. I'm honestly a bit surprised you're unfamiliar with it.

You might as well be asking why Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge and/or Trap Sense. It doesn't synchronize with their other class abilities much at all...but thematically, it represents a feral instinct for danger, which is very thematically tied in and appropriate for the Class.

There are other similar examples in various places, too. Classes are, in play, simply a grab-bag of cool abilities you can use to reflect whatever concept you desire, but in design they're usually made to facilitate certain highly specific fictional archetypes, and are given the abilities necessary to do so.

For example, you can play a dagger wielding Paladin in leather armor with sky-high Dex and a lot of skills (probably dipping Ninja to do so) but that's not what the Class is designed for. It's designed to play a holy knight in shining armor...and thus has the Proficiencies to do that, even if a particular character never uses them. Similarly, you can absolutely play an Occultist who'd never use the Circles thing, but the archetypical one can and does, so the Class has the ability to do so.

And besides, I'll bet there'll be at least one archetype that trades them away, if you really don't like them, just use that.

Dark Archive

I want the archetype with heavy armor proficiency, and I want that proficiency at early levels!


I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
I'm actually onboard with Occultists not getting summon monster (at least not by way of Conjuration Implements) - it's not like everyone should have to get them, and the Conjuration school offers enough other good things for them to do without (and they get another kind of monster-conjuration ability through Conjuration Implements anyways). Heck, wouldn't it be nice to have a class that tended to deliberately emphasize the underappreciated portions of each magical school, so we could see them used in strange and unusual ways?

What I would really want is an psionics-specific "summon monster" spell that either focuses on summoning more "occult" monsters or ghosts or whatever or summons creatures that are more powerful than standard summon monster spells but incurs some kind of additional cost or risk.

Shisumo wrote:
Proficiency with all martial seems to imply "I am a combat specialist." That said, though, I agree with you; the occultist does make a phenomenal skill monkey, but only a 2nd tier combatant.

I think that you should read my discussion on this class's combat viability higher up post. I don't think this classes combat is "second tier" at all.

I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:

Proficiency with more weapons rather than fewer is part of their larger picture: A consummate master of items. Actually, maybe what I'd have done is make them proficient with all simple weapons and finite number (10 sound reasonable?) of martial and/or exotic weapons of their choice, to reflect the class's affinity for odd and exotic items.

Rather than view classes with clunky category-goggles, what we really need to recognize is that, while one could draw similarities here and there, each class is its own unique role. It's the more expansivist, rather than reductivist, way to think of the game, and such expansivist thinking is what enables the game to be played to its full potential (as opposed to just pen-and-paper World of Warcraft).

I would not mind seeing this class moving in a more casting-focused direction. However, I will note that there is significant unevenness in this class's design. As I have discussed before, this class's best build is a martial build in the first 4 levels or so, but that deteriorates into bull crap later on. It is like Bugs Bunny gave me an exploding cigar.

I think that the ideal design for this class could include a build based around fighting with magical artifact weapons. However, I would also like all the "power" builds to end up being a little more attractive.


Deadmanwalking wrote:


It's not a specific book series, those were just some examples (from a book series and a comic book respectively...though both characters have also had TV shows, now that I think about it). It's a fictional archetype common in urban fantasy, and certainly not unknown outside it. I'm honestly a bit surprised you're unfamiliar with it.

You might as well be asking why Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge and/or Trap Sense. It doesn't synchronize with their other class abilities much at all...but thematically, it represents a feral instinct for danger, which is very thematically tied in and appropriate for the Class.

There are other similar examples in various places, too. Classes are, in play, simply a grab-bag of cool abilities you can use to reflect whatever concept you desire, but in design they're usually made to facilitate certain highly specific fictional archetypes, and are given the abilities necessary to do so.

For example, you can play a dagger wielding Paladin in leather armor with sky-high Dex and a lot of skills (probably dipping Ninja to do so) but that's not what the Class is designed for. It's designed to play a holy knight in shining armor...and thus has the Proficiencies to do that, even if a particular character never uses them. Similarly, you can absolutely play an Occultist who'd never use the Circles thing, but the archetypical one can and does, so the Class has the ability to do so.

And besides, I'll bet there'll be at least one archetype that trades them away, if you really don't like them, just use that.

But it only fits a small type of the schools of occultists, abjuration and conjuration.... I cannot understand why Any of the other types of occultists would use them to the extent it feels out of place for Most occultists. If there were uses for other types of casters maybe it would seem fine, but... transmutation, necromacy, illusion, evocation, etc. They aren't really going to see much benefit from them.

Sovereign Court

Transmutation implement: Amulet of Mighty Fists

What do you guys think?

It can be enchanted like a melee weapon...


I have a question on the legacy weapon resonant power, and it may have been answered but I haven't found it (yet). Sorry if this was answered already (or if I asked before...)

It says that you get a +1 ability for every 3 focus spent, to a maximum of 1+1/4 your occultist level. Now. Assuming our occultist is lv. 6, does that mean that you can't spend more than 4 focus? Or that you can't get more than up to a +4 weapon special ability (if you could afford it)?

So for example, would it allow a lv. 6 occultist to spend 6 mental focus to get a sword with phase locking or two +1 abilities? Or would it only allow 4 points to be spent, thus only allowing a +1 ability like agility or keen?

Also, was there any word on if there would be a feat that gives an extra focus power, and what possible changes / tweaks based off of the playtest might be?


Well. I found out the answer to my question after going through the thread (which was sort of enlightening rules wise). Seems one only gets one ability from Legacy Weapon no matter how much you put into it. Sort of sucks... would have loved an acid keen scimitar, but oh well.

Any hints at changes one could expect would still be awesome though.


Um... Finally got around to looking at the occultist, and I've got one question (and hopefully didn't miss the answer in the thread [used the search bar], or in the playtest doc).

Please tell me that Quills/Pens/Writing Instruments will be somewhere in the final release. This class just makes me want to play a character that taunts an opponent by going "Don't you know the quill is mightier than the sword?"


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Slothsy wrote:
Are occultists supposed to receive the mundane implement for free as part of the class feature, similar to a wizard's bonded object?

I have been playing one for a few sessions, starting at level 1, and it is a long valley of "meh"... but it isn't like low level wizards have a ton to do either.

In a min-max campaign where maximum effectiveness counts, I don't think Occultist would be a good choice. And honestly, that's usually my group's style of play but it happens that we are doing a campaign where it is a lot more about occult investigations and RP. In this setting, it's quite fun to play, although, so far, my direct Occultist abilities have had little directly useful impact on the game. But I don't think that in this campaign, a mage or sorcerer at low level would be doing all that much either.

My take on occultist: it has some great color, it has some very different mechanics, it eventually might be middling in effectiveness compared to other classes. If you care about standing out as a major source of power, healing, etc., it probably isn't the right class. If you have the right campaign and are more interested in roleplaying, it has some potential.

I think it is a good addition to the game. Not every class is for everyone or every campaign. If I've ever played a monk in my almost 40 years of gaming, I can't recall it... or a gnome for that matter. Glad to have them in the game, though, and glad to be playing occultist now.


dot


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For those who haven't seen yet, Occult Adventures Class Preview: The Occultist.


I have some confusion and maybe this is on the wrong message board. For the Occultist- Lets say I am Abjuration and pick an amulet as my focus for the day.

Can I then use mental focus to enhance an ALLY's shield by +1? Or does Mental Focus only work on MY OWN implement and I would need to pick "Shield" at the start of the day?

The new book is exciting... but somewhat confusing.

Thanks!

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