I would love to have some of this class' abilities to work like the witch's hex, especially the slumber and evil eye ones.
When I read this class I couldn't help but imagine James Earl Jones as the mesmerist.
At what level does the mesmerist get a cult with harem? ;)
This.
Maybe not for this reason, but this. I'm hype for this class, but just examining it, I was really hoping it would do more for larger groups. Sure the single hypnotist swinging a pocket watch and affecting one person has a great flair, but I was hoping for someone who would be able to whip up a frenzy and generate a mob or strike psychic afflictions to all those that he could see. I was sort of thinking the stare would be like an anti-bard debuff. Inspire Pusillanimousness, or some sort. I'd say that one good way to do this would be to have the stare last for one round per level after ending it, but in that state the target only takes the associated debuffs from the mesmerist. It's a bit self serving, but it's an option to spread out debuffs. But mesmerist definitely needs some more crowd control, no matter how. Even an archetype based on this concept would be appreciated.
Mental Potency is silly. I understand we don't need another Heavens Oracle spamming Color Spray all the live long day. That would be lame for everyone, I get it. But a one level bump in hit dice dependent spells doesn't exactly say "master of the subconscious mind". The list of spells the class feature augments is really limited, as in "I can't think of what this will affect outside of the examples listed" limited. Personally, I'd drop a Spell Focus (Enchantment) bonus feat here instead, even. If there's an archetype will trade out Mental Potency for anything that isn't HD dependent and static, I feel I'll jump on that when the book comes out.
Also, just a bit of a weird thing to me, but why is it that Bold Stare can augment enemy subconsciouses at a distance of medium spell range, but Mesmerist Tricks can only be applied at a range of touch? It may be a nitpick, but it would be a neat idea to have something along the lines of "If you don't have a stare currently in effect, you can apply tricks at medium range".
|
I gotta say, I'm disappointed with the Mesmerist. Was looking forward to a crowd controller, and while their gaze ability is neat, they feel far more focused on using those Tricks to set up situational buffs around the party. They don't even get Dominate Monster on the spell list, only as a capstone ability, usable on a single creature at a time, with a DC based on their expended spells and with a likely 5 point DC reduction, that the target gets immunity to if they make the save.
Considering the Summoner gets dominate monster, The Mesmerist probably should as well. On Katydid's thoughts... I'm not certain why this class isn't a 9th level caster. I guess it's focus on illusion and enchantment (with a tiny bit of branching out in other directions) kinda discourages that. But it becoming a 9th level caster just would remind me of the Beguiler... a class I loved! Though Katydid, you are a bit wrong about the tricks... Only Gift of Will, Surprising Switch, and Spatial Switch are the only tricks that the Mesmerist can't use on himself and without allies. That's because these tricks specifically require an ally to perform. All his other tricks can be used on himself if the mesmerist so chooses.
Developer
|
Does the "Hypnotic Stare" ability require some kind of action to maintain?
No, it remains in effect until ended by one of the three listed conditions.
Also, if the Stare requires focusing on an enemy (or two), wouldn't that result in a penalty in combat or require a concentration check like normal spells would?
Nope! The mesmerist is really good at staring.
Finally, this is one is probably obvious since a save equation is listed, but just to be on the safe side, since a good portion of the Mesmerist's tricks are figment or glamer effects, does that mean they can be disbelieved like illusion spells?
Yes, you can disbelieve them.
I realize that at-will abilities need to be balanced in their power levels, but Stare in its current form feels very lack-luster.Getting the power level right for this ability is really tough. I agree that it currently looks weak compared to evil eye (even as a swift action instead of a standard). Evil eye is exceptionally strong, though, and stacking penalties can make for really lopsided fights. The playtest version of the stare is pretty conservative, so we're going to watch how it works in play and bump it up in power level if we can.
Just to be sure a mesmerist at 7th level with Bold Stare (Sluggishiness and Disorientation) can as a swift action hit someone with -1 to Will and Reflexes and attack an damage and reduce their movement by 5 feet? No save?
I don't think it's weak. At all.Maybe allow Will Breaker to be taken a second time at 15th level or higher, and three or four more options for Bold Stare. As is you get five choices (3, 7, 11, 15, 19) from only six options. Four more and one could build two mesmerists with entirely different stares.
Question: If I have Bold Stare (Suscebility and Allure) does the penalty stack on Sense Motive? Penalties normally do, I'm just checking to see if it's intentional or a loophole. That Mesmerist could become the bluffing Bards best bud.
|
Developer
|
Maybe allow Will Breaker to be taken a second time at 15th level or higher, and three or four more options for Bold Stare. As is you get five choices (3, 7, 11, 15, 19) from only six options. Four more and one could build two mesmerists with entirely different stares.
There will definitely be more stare options in the book.
Question: If I have Bold Stare (Suscebility and Allure) does the penalty stack on Sense Motive? Penalties normally do, I'm just checking to see if it's intentional or a loophole. That Mesmerist could become the bluffing Bards best bud.
It currently does stack, yes. I might remove the Sense Motive penalty from allure eventually. It's meant to mirror fascinated, but since it's already *not* the same as fascinated, that change could make the two distinct. A penalty on initiative and Perception checks already has some oomph.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think it's weak. At all.
For a class that is supposed to focus on debuffing, it is really not that impressive.
A court bard of the same level can cause all opponents within 30 feet to suffer a -2 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls and saves vs. charm/fear as a move action without a save.I'd say that is more along the line of a primary class feature that bold stare is supposed to be.
So I have gone over this several times, and sort of actually getting it in the game, I find the class lacking.
Here is why.
the class definitely seems to be geared towards a support role, similar to a bard. But it lacks the buffs or healing from that spell list.
I love the concept of the stare, well themed but I feel this power even with Bold stare powers is a bit lackluster, and when I think Mesmerist this is what I want to be a core class feature.
Tricks on the other hand seem to be trying to be the bardic music/witch hex of the class, but they seem situational. They are a standard action and a touch range they only work once, they only last for a short time before lost.
I simply don't know when I would use these? am I running up to people in battle and adding tricks to them, what if we are surprised or run fight to fight seems like unless its a pitched battle most of these are not going to see even be used.
If anything I would make tricks effect enemies rather then allies and maybe have them queued to the target of their stare?
Also in my mind this guy should be getting some crazy bonuses to deception, diplomacy, as he is a master manipulator this should be his bardic knowledge.
I would love to see stare do things like let him cast command, control, and eventually dominate creatures. starting with things like making them stand still, or drop a weapon, later maybe be able to make an ally invisible for a turn by fiddling with his mind.
Not necessarily the way you want to go, but you also could move him 1/2 BAB and 9 spell levels which would definite be more in line with how i feel this class is currently designed.
It's a bit off topic of the class features discussion, but I took a look at the spell list and I think that Telepathic Bond could maybe be done as a 4th level spell, if not lower. Mesmerist is the closest class that Pathfinder has to a telepath archetype, it wouldn't hurt to give them access to one of the best example of a telepathic ability at a level comparable to sorcerers. Along this line, I noticed Battlemind Link, a very nice support spell with strong telepathic tones, is conspicuously absent from the mesmerist spell list. I'm not sure if that is an oversight or intentional, but I'd feel like the spell is a must have for the class.
Chris definitely has a point about having more commanding spells. I think Bold Stare covers Tricks on enemies, but I feel like you should be able to set triggers on enemies, too. Do I need to wait until I'm level 20 to Manchurian Candidate a non-humanoid creature? Why is a hypnosis specialist waiting so long for that on Rule Minds when the summoner gets that same power four levels earlier? Furthermore, why is it Rule Minds if you can only have one at a time? Though that last one goes back into the whole "not terribly effective against multiple targets" problem that's already been mentioned about the class.
This thread is for general discussion of the Mesmerist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.
As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.
Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I'm playtesting the Mesmerist with a player in my regular PSIONICS-BUT-NO-ONE-WANTS-TO-BE Campaign, tomorrow.
There will definitely be more stare options in the book.
Eagerly awaiting the "leer" option. :p
Leer: The target of your stare becomes so uncomfortable under your gaze that they must reroll any attacks directed against the Mesmerist, taking the lowest roll.
I'm not partial to the tricks as they feel somewhat off-flavor, but perhaps an archetype that replaces tricks with new and improved bold stare abilities might bring the class more in line with what I had originally conceived upon first hearing of it.
Personally, I feel as though this class could (and perhaps should) perform the same function as a court bard, focusing on debuffs, charm/compulsion, and crowd control. With so many class features focusing on buffing allies, however, I don't see how to make that tenable as of yet.
|
Developer
|
I'm playtesting the Mesmerist with a player in my regular PSIONICS-BUT-NO-ONE-WANTS-TO-BE Campaign, tomorrow.
Great! Really looking forward to getting some more perspective on the class in play. I think it's currently a little low on power level, but we're lacking in actual play data, so I appreciate that you'll be playing one!
Logan, I remember that with the ACG, there were two playtest releases, one a few weeks after the other regarding updates and adjustments. Will we be seeing that here?
I am just popping in to complain about tricks as well. Their set up and activation are both far too situational. In my campaigns, it is rare that a party knows a fight is coming. And even if they did know the fight is coming, there are minutes per caster level buffs that blow these tricks out the water.
I really do think the minutes per class level implant limit needs to be removed (or increased to hours per class level maybe). The tricks might as well not even be a class ability otherwise. I am not sure I can remember the last time a situation came up in my game where they might have been useful.
I think the problem here is that this class just does not have that much to do with its standard actions in combat (tell me if I am wrong). Could these tricks maybe be an "immediate" action that actually takes up the character's next standard action?
That way you would not have the set up problem.
Maybe the manifold tricks could reduce this to a move action (letting a mesmerist activate one trick as a move action and then a second trick using up their standard).
That would be a substantial change but I think it would give the class some really interesting risk/reward scenarios during combat.
Going to look into self playtesting this and a couple other builds soon to truly get the feel of the classes. That said, I had an idea for a possible ability. Though I doubt the idea will be used, I'm going to toss it up anyways, because I can be "like that" occasionally. :)
The idea is basically the mesmerist giving some one a triggered compulsion. Think contingent + dominate person (or command or suggestion). Include a will save of course and maybe require touch. Essentially you place a command into their subconscious as well as a trigger chosen by you. When the trigger event occurs, they are then compelled to do as you commanded upon making the compulsion. Make it so they forget that you did this to them and a bonus to break compulsion if its against their nature. I'd have lots of fun with this.
Anyways, just throwing idea shuriken. On to self playtesting!
It's late, so forgive me if I'm missing something, but I read that tricks only have a short time (mins/level) by which they must be triggered. If that's correct, why is that? I don't see why they shouldn't last until triggered or the mesmer's uses are reset.
I am a bit late to the party, but I like what I've read so far, though they seem slightly underpowered.
However, my curiosity is in an area that maybe others have/n't considered - for creatures that advance by class level, and, for example, have a gaze attack, does the mesmerist's gaze overlay with the existing attack or no?
Would the gaze be applicable only through main eyes or through the snakes as well?
-- Ah wonderful --
I can't do this on the forums, the information for your first Foil had just blasted. I'll have to do this on my wiki.
|
Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, whipped up a Mesmirist quickly yesterday afternoon for my weekly store game. Here are a few impressions from actual play.
TRICK SETUP
Was a little confused on the trick setup. Does "He can have only one trick active at a given time," mean (1) he can only set up 1 subject at a time (in which case he has to wait for the trick to activate, burn an immediate action, and then spend a standard to implant another subject in the hopes he'll get a chance to activate another of his daily trick uses), (2) he can implant multiple subjects at the same time but they must all have the same trick implanted, and/or (2.5) he can implant multiple subjects at the same time but no subject may have more than 1 trick implanted at a given time?
In the current version, it's #1.
|
Developer
|
Helping my wife make a mesmerist to replace her cartomancer witch for this Sunday. Starting at level 6 and we get to mental potency, we both feel it's missing text about scaling or being of use past level 5. When I checked here and confirmed its just the one level boost she said she was going to punch me. Thanks a lot for getting me hit :(. I'll come back Sunday evening with more feedback and, hopefully, no more bruises.
Mental potency should also say that any enchantment or illusion spell that affects a number of creatures can affect one additional creature. So if a spell says it affects 1 creature/level, a 5th-level mesmerist can affect 6 creatures. This is in addition to the HD increase.
|
Developer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's late, so forgive me if I'm missing something, but I read that tricks only have a short time (mins/level) by which they must be triggered. If that's correct, why is that? I don't see why they shouldn't last until triggered or the mesmer's uses are reset.
We might switch it to that.
|
I haven't playtested the mesmerist yet, but this is my opinion based solely on reading the document. I won't touch on tricks, as that's been done enough here. Rather, I'll focus on the spell level progression and BAB. It feels like the mesmerist is supposed to resemble a bard, with a 3/4 BAB, 6 level spell progression, and the same spells per day. However, I see no martial functionality to boost their prowess in the way that bards can inspire. Even more importantly, their weapon proficiencies are sorely lacking for a character with limited daily casting like the mesmerist currently has.
To fix this, I see two possible routes. The mesmerist could be changed to a 1/2 BAB class and given 9th level spell progression with more spells per day, making it a dedicated caster with a focus on enchantment and illusion. Alternatively, something as simple as proficiencies with weapons like the rapier, longsword, shortsword, and perhaps short bow would give them viable combat routes and turn them into a more versatile character that fights martially with buff and debuff support. I personally would vote for the former, as I feel the latter is beginning to look just like a bard, but I feel as though one of the two should be done.
I haven't playtested the mesmerist yet, but this is my opinion based solely on reading the document. I won't touch on tricks, as that's been done enough here. Rather, I'll focus on the spell level progression and BAB. It feels like the mesmerist is supposed to resemble a bard, with a 3/4 BAB, 6 level spell progression, and the same spells per day. However, I see no martial functionality to boost their prowess in the way that bards can inspire. Even more importantly, their weapon proficiencies are sorely lacking for a character with limited daily casting like the mesmerist currently has.
To fix this, I see two possible routes. The mesmerist could be changed to a 1/2 BAB class and given 9th level spell progression with more spells per day, making it a dedicated caster with a focus on enchantment and illusion. Alternatively, something as simple as proficiencies with weapons like the rapier, longsword, shortsword, and perhaps short bow would give them viable combat routes and turn them into a more versatile character that fights martially with buff and debuff support. I personally would vote for the former, as I feel the latter is beginning to look just like a bard, but I feel as though one of the two should be done.
How about 1/2 level spell casting and the yet another class feature? The current mesmerist tricks can be the defensive option while something like a souped-up limited use hex-like class feature as an offensive option?
That way the people who want "tricks" to be offensive can get something while the people who enjoy the idea of hypnotic defensive programming stay happy as well.
I think there is a lot of design room for a 1/2 BAB class with just a plethora of class features to offset it.
Does spectral smoke allow a saving throw if you interact with it? Can you disbelieve your on spectral smoke?
|
|
I haven't playtested the mesmerist yet, but this is my opinion based solely on reading the document. I won't touch on tricks, as that's been done enough here. Rather, I'll focus on the spell level progression and BAB. It feels like the mesmerist is supposed to resemble a bard, with a 3/4 BAB, 6 level spell progression, and the same spells per day. However, I see no martial functionality to boost their prowess in the way that bards can inspire. Even more importantly, their weapon proficiencies are sorely lacking for a character with limited daily casting like the mesmerist currently has.
To fix this, I see two possible routes. The mesmerist could be changed to a 1/2 BAB class and given 9th level spell progression with more spells per day, making it a dedicated caster with a focus on enchantment and illusion. Alternatively, something as simple as proficiencies with weapons like the rapier, longsword, shortsword, and perhaps short bow would give them viable combat routes and turn them into a more versatile character that fights martially with buff and debuff support. I personally would vote for the former, as I feel the latter is beginning to look just like a bard, but I feel as though one of the two should be done.
How about 1/2 level spell casting and the yet another class feature? The current mesmerist tricks can be the defensive option while something like a souped-up limited use hex-like class feature as an offensive option?
That way the people who want "tricks" to be offensive can get something while the people who enjoy the idea of hypnotic defensive programming stay happy as well.
I think there is a lot of design room for a 1/2 BAB class with just a plethora of class features to offset it.
I'd be fine with that. Instead of increasing spells per day, keep it limited and add in offensive class abilities like witch hexes. That would be totally cool. The important thing is that the class has something to do every turn of combat, and it doesn't have the spells/abilities or weapon proficiencies to do that just now.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
Overall, the class looks good, and the first in the playtest I've ready that really feels thematically like a good fit for the occult description of the book.
I wasn't super thorough reading the spell list, but I was wondering why phantasmal killer was bumped up to a 5th level spell for them though. It's a fairly weak 4th level spell anyway for wizards or sorcerers, with two saves required, and generally 6-level casters tend to get some spells at a level lower or the same level as 9-level casters. This makes a mesmerist wait until 13th level to cast this spell, vs. 7th for a wizard. I'd make it a 3rd level mesmerist spell and let them cast at 7th maybe, but at the very least move it to 4th where they'd get it at 10th level.
Speaking towards my suggestion knocking the class down to 1/2 bab (and maybe a d6 hd) and giving it a nice batch of offensive options:
I think a really solid offensive ability would be the ability to do something like "mark" two enemies as a standard action. Then the next single-target mind-effecting spell the mesmerist uses will effect the spell's normal target as well as the two marked opponents. This could be in service to the people wanting crowd control hypnotism and I think it would be thematically and mechanically appropriate.
|
Developer
|
Does spectral smoke allow a saving throw if you interact with it? Can you disbelieve your on spectral smoke?
Right now, it's possible to disbelieve it, using the standard DC listed in the tricks intro. I'd say that since you know that you just triggered the trick, you automatically disbelieve the effect and you can ignore the cloud.
It's late, so forgive me if I'm missing something, but I read that tricks only have a short time (mins/level) by which they must be triggered. If that's correct, why is that? I don't see why they shouldn't last until triggered or the mesmer's uses are reset.We might switch it to that.
I think it would be solid. The Mesmer's Plan A is probably to solve the problem with their social skills, and that would take a few minutes. Plus if he succeeds socially, he shouldn't lose his combat potential (by having tricks expire).
I gotta say, the more I read this class... I... can't... resist... *stares at wall*
Was really hoping for some group manipulation, though. :/
My player changed to a kineticist, because he felt that the Mesmerist wasn't offensive enough. Bull, actually. The class has very subtle attacks. But if my player passed it up, that probably means that you guys will have to give the class a very obvious attack.
I like this one, it's like pathfinder's version of the beguiler, but much more interesting.
I agree the tricks need to be loaded differently. No time limit, or approach it from a different angle...once an ally is affected by a trick, it can't be for X duration.
One of the cool tricks I saw was Vanish Arrow. The concept of this is great. "Ha! I stole your arrow of death!"
The execution is a nightmare for a PC mesmerist though. While players may target foes and then roll their attack, DMs rarely do so in my experience. Thus, making the ability trigger when targeted but before rolled makes it impossible.
When I DM, I do not tell my players they are being targeted by ranged attacks, then roll them, then tell them who was hit. I simply roll, then describe the misses and hits. It would be better to have the ability trigger on a hit.
|
|
I agree the tricks need to be loaded differently. No time limit, or approach it from a different angle...once an ally is affected by a trick, it can't be for X duration.
One of the cool tricks I saw was Vanish Arrow. The concept of this is great. "Ha! I stole your arrow of death!"
The execution is a nightmare for a PC mesmerist though. While players may target foes and then roll their attack, DMs rarely do so in my experience. Thus, making the ability trigger when targeted but before rolled makes it impossible.
When I DM, I do not tell my players they are being targeted by ranged attacks, then roll them, then tell them who was hit. I simply roll, then describe the misses and hits. It would be better to have the ability trigger on a hit.
That's kinda a weird way to play considering there are many reactive abilities that trigger off an attack roll being made at someone. Plus it doesn't make sense that a player wouldn't know they are being targeted by an attack or spell (unless of course the attacker is unseen).
It's your game but I'm pretty sure the system assumes that players know when an attack roll is being made in their direction.