General Discussion: Medium


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Designer

redward wrote:
I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.

I'd say probably the mesmerist may be most useful to the playtest as a whole due to the additional tweaks being more recent, presuming you aren't playing in PFS where document + error clarification are legal but not new balance changes. Followed by medium perhaps with the new unlocked spirits that have fewer playtests. Also medium has the opportunity to unlock new spirits. Stephen got a lot of great feedback from you guys on spiritualist already and there have been fewer adjustments or new pieces to test in that regard.


Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.
I'd say probably the mesmerist may be most useful to the playtest as a whole due to the additional tweaks being more recent, presuming you aren't playing in PFS where document + error clarification are legal but not new balance changes. Followed by medium perhaps with the new unlocked spirits that have fewer playtests. Also medium has the opportunity to unlock new spirits. Stephen got a lot of great feedback from you guys on spiritualist already and there have been fewer adjustments or new pieces to test in that regard.

It'll be PFS. So maybe Medium after all?

It'll be a level 1 playing up in a 1 - 5. Any Spirits you'd like to see tested?

Designer

redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.
I'd say probably the mesmerist may be most useful to the playtest as a whole due to the additional tweaks being more recent, presuming you aren't playing in PFS where document + error clarification are legal but not new balance changes. Followed by medium perhaps with the new unlocked spirits that have fewer playtests. Also medium has the opportunity to unlock new spirits. Stephen got a lot of great feedback from you guys on spiritualist already and there have been fewer adjustments or new pieces to test in that regard.

It'll be PFS. So maybe Medium after all?

It'll be a level 1 playing up in a 1 - 5. Any Spirits you'd like to see tested?

Hmm...playing up is always tough for a level 1 of most classes. I'm game for any spirits, but you might get good use out of Unicorn's aid another in a situation like that (and I like the fact that you can do that with medium and still have, say, an alternate loadout for frontline melee for situations where you aren't playing up to 4-5). Otherwise, if you mention what scenario I'll see if I can give a recommendation of a spirit I'd like to see in that particular scenario.


Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.
I'd say probably the mesmerist may be most useful to the playtest as a whole due to the additional tweaks being more recent, presuming you aren't playing in PFS where document + error clarification are legal but not new balance changes. Followed by medium perhaps with the new unlocked spirits that have fewer playtests. Also medium has the opportunity to unlock new spirits. Stephen got a lot of great feedback from you guys on spiritualist already and there have been fewer adjustments or new pieces to test in that regard.

It'll be PFS. So maybe Medium after all?

It'll be a level 1 playing up in a 1 - 5. Any Spirits you'd like to see tested?

Hmm...playing up is always tough for a level 1 of most classes. I'm game for any spirits, but you might get good use out of Unicorn's aid another in a situation like that (and I like the fact that you can do that with medium and still have, say, an alternate loadout for frontline melee for situations where you aren't playing up to 4-5). Otherwise, if you mention what scenario I'll see if I can give a recommendation of a spirit I'd like to see in that particular scenario.

Merchant's Wake.

EDIT
Party is:
Monk 4
SammyT's GeoTerrarium 5
Ninja 3(?)
Summoner 3
Pregen Warpriest 4
Medium 1?

Designer

redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
I was going to playtest my Spiritualist tonight but I will likely be shelving him due to the current state of the class. I'll see if I can get a Medium put together in time. The other option is to try the newly tweaked Mesmerist. In case you think any of those would be most useful for the playtest as a whole.
I'd say probably the mesmerist may be most useful to the playtest as a whole due to the additional tweaks being more recent, presuming you aren't playing in PFS where document + error clarification are legal but not new balance changes. Followed by medium perhaps with the new unlocked spirits that have fewer playtests. Also medium has the opportunity to unlock new spirits. Stephen got a lot of great feedback from you guys on spiritualist already and there have been fewer adjustments or new pieces to test in that regard.

It'll be PFS. So maybe Medium after all?

It'll be a level 1 playing up in a 1 - 5. Any Spirits you'd like to see tested?

Hmm...playing up is always tough for a level 1 of most classes. I'm game for any spirits, but you might get good use out of Unicorn's aid another in a situation like that (and I like the fact that you can do that with medium and still have, say, an alternate loadout for frontline melee for situations where you aren't playing up to 4-5). Otherwise, if you mention what scenario I'll see if I can give a recommendation of a spirit I'd like to see in that particular scenario.
Merchant's Wake.

Oh, I played Medea in that one! It seems like a good mix of stuff, and it hit pretty much every strength of Medea's build, so I'd say go with whatever you like. You probably won't go too wrong with most options, delta being level 1 in a 4-5, of course (Medea was doing 1-2).

EDIT: Your party seems pretty fighty. I suppose an Int medium who knows he/she is going to hide in battles could be interesting. I haven't seen a Linguistics-maxed Vision medium yet in any playtest. That could be hilarious and amusing, maybe. Wouldn't be any good in a fight though, but you can always rebuild later. If you do that, with your GM's permission/assistance, I'd also like to see what would have happened if you had Spirit Specialization Int (thus, your bonus to all skill checks would increase by one and your bonus/penalty from cryptic words as well).


Mark Seifter wrote:
If you do that, with your GM's permission/assistance, I'd also like to see what would have happened if you had Spirit Specialization Int (thus, your bonus to all skill checks would increase by one and your bonus/penalty from cryptic words as well).

Only if I can get special dispensation from John/Mike. Or I can ask the VL that will be playing with us.

I was thinking something skillsy with that group in mind. I'll start throwing builds together.

Designer

redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If you do that, with your GM's permission/assistance, I'd also like to see what would have happened if you had Spirit Specialization Int (thus, your bonus to all skill checks would increase by one and your bonus/penalty from cryptic words as well).

Only if I can get special dispensation from John/Mike. Or I can ask the VL that will be playing with us.

I was thinking something skillsy with that group in mind. I'll start throwing builds together.

Oh I don't mean you can take the feat. Just basically if you go Vision, let the GM know that if she's alright with it, you'd like the GM to mark down when you failed by 2 or less with cryptic words (or an ally failed by 1 or less using your cryptic words bonus), since presumably that would have been a success if that feat was allowed. So the scenario doesn't change, but we get even more feedback from it, if the GM's up for taking notes if that happens. If not, that's cool too. I've been noting things like that for Medea and Strength Specialization (she has Power Attack, but I'd have rather taken Strength Specialization and gotten +1 to hit and damage when Strengthing over –1 to hit and +2 damage).


Mark Seifter wrote:
redward wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
If you do that, with your GM's permission/assistance, I'd also like to see what would have happened if you had Spirit Specialization Int (thus, your bonus to all skill checks would increase by one and your bonus/penalty from cryptic words as well).

Only if I can get special dispensation from John/Mike. Or I can ask the VL that will be playing with us.

I was thinking something skillsy with that group in mind. I'll start throwing builds together.

Oh I don't mean you can take the feat. Just basically if you go Vision, let the GM know that if she's alright with it, you'd like the GM to mark down when you failed by 2 or less with cryptic words (or an ally failed by 1 or less using your cryptic words bonus), since presumably that would have been a success if that feat was allowed. So the scenario doesn't change, but we get even more feedback from it, if the GM's up for taking notes if that happens. If not, that's cool too. I've been noting things like that for Medea and Strength Specialization (she has Power Attack, but I'd have rather taken Strength Specialization and gotten +1 to hit and damage when Strengthing over –1 to hit and +2 damage).

Gotcha! Can do.

Shadow Lodge

Konraeus is the bestest GeoTerriarium.

Paizo Employee Developer

Mark Seifter wrote:
As an aside, it's looking like this weekend was lighter than usual on medium playtests. The dice gods are fickle and one can never say for sure, but I am currently predicting that we will fall shy of the 7 unlocked spirits (currently at 5/7) necessary to unlock Mark beseeching John Compton for beseech in PFS before July. In the hopes that this message will spur you to report more medium playtests, I'm going to be increasing the chance of unlocks by 50% for today and tomorrow until (if) we get 7. No need to run scenarios all night though—I know from the counts of poll numbers that there's enough people out there, so just get all your friends who played mediums to post their playtest data and we should be fine (but, y'know, always safe to run a few today just in case). I did my part (John, Linda, and I unlocked 2 of the 5 so far with our medium trifecta), so let's work together and pull this off!

I was going to play another round of Emerald Spire tonight, but it sounds like that game got pushed back a week. Alas!

The Exchange

John Compton wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As an aside, it's looking like this weekend was lighter than usual on medium playtests. The dice gods are fickle and one can never say for sure, but I am currently predicting that we will fall shy of the 7 unlocked spirits (currently at 5/7) necessary to unlock Mark beseeching John Compton for beseech in PFS before July. In the hopes that this message will spur you to report more medium playtests, I'm going to be increasing the chance of unlocks by 50% for today and tomorrow until (if) we get 7. No need to run scenarios all night though—I know from the counts of poll numbers that there's enough people out there, so just get all your friends who played mediums to post their playtest data and we should be fine (but, y'know, always safe to run a few today just in case). I did my part (John, Linda, and I unlocked 2 of the 5 so far with our medium trifecta), so let's work together and pull this off!
I was going to play another round of Emerald Spire tonight, but it sounds like that game got pushed back a week. Alas!

After our adventure in Mendev, I know better than to take your word on that at face value, however you disguise yourself Zanzeti. This is clearly just the beginning of a convoluted scheme to slide in at the end with some unexpected playtests.


John Compton wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
As an aside, it's looking like this weekend was lighter than usual on medium playtests. The dice gods are fickle and one can never say for sure, but I am currently predicting that we will fall shy of the 7 unlocked spirits (currently at 5/7) necessary to unlock Mark beseeching John Compton for beseech in PFS before July. In the hopes that this message will spur you to report more medium playtests, I'm going to be increasing the chance of unlocks by 50% for today and tomorrow until (if) we get 7. No need to run scenarios all night though—I know from the counts of poll numbers that there's enough people out there, so just get all your friends who played mediums to post their playtest data and we should be fine (but, y'know, always safe to run a few today just in case). I did my part (John, Linda, and I unlocked 2 of the 5 so far with our medium trifecta), so let's work together and pull this off!
I was going to play another round of Emerald Spire tonight, but it sounds like that game got pushed back a week. Alas!

Looks like ours got called, too. FWIW, Here's the build I had sketched out:

Half-Elf Medium
Str 12 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 7 Cha 16

Traits: Omen, Unintentional Linguist
Feats: Orator, Skill Focus (Linguistics)

Skills (including Spirit Bonus from the Vision):
Intimidate: +9
Know (Arcana): +10
Know (Planes): +8
Know (Religion): +8
Linguistics: +12
Perception: +5
Spellcraft: +10
UMD: +8

Spirits known: The Vision, The Unicorn, The Teamster

I mulled over spirits quite a bit. Ended up with the Vision to try to test it for Mark and the Teamster in case of emergency. The Unicorn was there to maybe swap out if we ended up adventuring for multiple days, even though it's incompatible with the other two spirits.

Orator would let me use Linguistics for Diplomacy, Intimidate and Bluff outside of combat.

In combat, I'd try to Intimidate to Demoralize and then start having deciphering Cryptic Words, all from a relatively safe distance. Omen would even give me one swift Intimidate/day.

Immediately I realized the first wrinkle: Cryptic Words is a Circumstance bonus, which means when used to assist skill checks I'm going to be overshadowed by any masterwork tools in effect until my Spirit Bonus pushes past +2.

Also, when using it for attack rolls, the +1 is hard to justify for a standard action. Especially when I can get +3 with Unicorn. Yes, I have to be in melee range, but I can use a reach weapon and my target would be 10 rather than CR + 10.

The Vision does have a bit more utility in that it can be used for Saves, though.

---

Sorry I couldn't help unlock anything!

Designer

Circumstance bonuses stack, so it'll stack with MW tools :)


Mark Seifter wrote:
Circumstance bonuses stack, so it'll stack with MW tools :)

Oh yeah!

Scarab Sages

Looking over the spirits, the bear jumped at me as a great option for a Str based medium, however one concern I have is that as he gets to higher level being large for 24 hours could be a huge pain, not to mention being huge. So hopefully that's changed so that you can somehow control when you're large/huge as opposed to 24 hours.


I had hoped to play this weekend, but I'm still missing a chronicle from my Tuesday game and the local organizers picked scenarios that I'd already played. Sadly, this means I won't be able to assist anymore during the playtest period.

I do plan to play Drusk in PFS going forward as I have the 1 line boon to do it. Mark, would you want more data after the playtest period? If so, how would you like that communicated?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Wow, I just read through this class earlier and I'm thoroughly shocked. See, I've been writing concepts for a book I want to publish and I was using Pathfinder's character sheets to help describe their abilities and stuff. I started writing it months ago on a whim and came up with a world where, basically, an entire civilization was wiped out and became spirits who manifest physically as a literal "stream of consciousness". Being nearby lets them pull on your mind and influence you while touching it allows all these spirits to enter your mind at once, effectively driving you mad. Someone found a way to filter out the most compatible spirit for each person and allow it to ride you, giving you powers based on what abilities the spirit had while it was alive.

I had this all planned out and used certain themes, like "Truth" and "Strength", to limit what spells they could use in their class, but now you've gone and made the class I was trying to emulate the whole time. You're amazing!

Designer

LuniasM wrote:

Wow, I just read through this class earlier and I'm thoroughly shocked. See, I've been writing concepts for a book I want to publish and I was using Pathfinder's character sheets to help describe their abilities and stuff. I started writing it months ago on a whim and came up with a world where, basically, an entire civilization was wiped out and became spirits who manifest physically as a literal "stream of consciousness". Being nearby lets them pull on your mind and influence you while touching it allows all these spirits to enter your mind at once, effectively driving you mad. Someone found a way to filter out the most compatible spirit for each person and allow it to ride you, giving you powers based on what abilities the spirit had while it was alive.

I had this all planned out and used certain themes, like "Truth" and "Strength", to limit what spells they could use in their class, but now you've gone and made the class I was trying to emulate the whole time. You're amazing!

Awesome! If you adapt to medium, let us know how it turns out.


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I created a 2nd level support medium for my PFS game the other night.

The party consisted of a fighter, wizard, cleric, rouge, and ninja, a well rounded group but with no bard I decided to build a medium with a high charisma, good int, and decent dex for shooting a crossbow from range. We were exploring a tower with connections to the dark tapestry, sounded to me like a perfect match for the vision!

The character was terribly fun to role play, the other players at my table actually held hands during my seance and the fighter who had dead loved ones asked me to try to contact them.

Mechanically however I felt worthless. The seance bonus to knowledge arcana ended up being unnessicary and Cryptic Words (with 2 ranks invested in linguistics) ended up being a strictly worse Guidance that only sometimes worked and could cripple me. I tried using it to boost my allies attack and I tried using it to help with ghoul paralysis saves but the +1 just never made a difference. I understand that the ability scales with your spirit bonus, but by the time you have +2 I hope the class would have something better to do than maybe give 1 person a +2 or maybe handicap yourself. For the risk involved there should be a better reward.

It was really disappointing that I couldn't trance the Vision's intermediate ability to get a spell as trance only lasts a minute and 15 are required to review a spell book. I never tranced the other spirits that I knew either, with the party mulching all of the enemies within the first 2 rounds and my low initiative, spending an entire turn tracing in combat was pointless and it never would have been useful outside of combat in the scenario I played in so my 1/day trance went unused. With a large and diverse party my skill checks were strictly worse and redundant.

Sovereign Court

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As I won't be back from class until after the Playtest closes, I'd like to write my concluding thoughts on the Medium, the class I played the most during the playtest. For what it's worth, my experience was at level 1 (PFS), level 7 (Arena battle) and building a level 16 Medium for another Arena that got pushed back to this weekend at the last minute. Hopefully this thread doesn't get too flooded as to get this lost in the shadows~

Medium Final Thoughts:

The class is amazingly fun to build and the intricacies and differences in how you can play are just phenomenal. The same goes for Role-playing the character. Mediums can feel fluid in their personalities, due to the spirits' influence, so the class itself can create an amusingly schizophrenic character whose entire ideology changes with a trance.

There is one huge, huge problem though, build complexity/fun increases at a startlingly exponential rate. Until level 5, the Medium has 1 always-on power and just got some (largely mediocre) spells. Adding the Beseech Spirits ability is nice to give them something to do in situations early on, but you don't get to REALLY begin to start enjoying what the class has to offer until level 5. This makes the Medium a poor choice, in my opinion, for low-level campaigns and honestly for PFS as a whole. You really don't get to to experience the best part of the class (being able to mix and match spirits for an awesome combination) until almost halfway through an average PFS career.

I really love this class, but wish it wasn't so back-loaded with the best features. Creating a medium at 1st level is a dreadfully boring process, picking which 2-3 spirits you COULD potentially channel, but given the fact some give important build feats, mean you probably will stick to a single spirit with very limited trance potential (and when the book releases, beseech spirits) from the others.

Overall, the class fills a great niche that PF lacked and even takes the Binder/Occultist concept in a neat, flavorful new direction than those classes. Unfortunately, I wouldn't build one for every game, as I probably wouldn't be enjoying playing my character for however long it takes to get to the most fun parts of the class. I will, however, love building one whenever I can start above 5. ;)

Designer

Morgoon wrote:

I created a 2nd level support medium for my PFS game the other night.

The party consisted of a fighter, wizard, cleric, rouge, and ninja, a well rounded group but with no bard I decided to build a medium with a high charisma, good int, and decent dex for shooting a crossbow from range. We were exploring a tower with connections to the dark tapestry, sounded to me like a perfect match for the vision!

The character was terribly fun to role play, the other players at my table actually held hands during my seance and the fighter who had dead loved ones asked me to try to contact them.

Mechanically however I felt worthless. The seance bonus to knowledge arcana ended up being unnessicary and Cryptic Words (with 2 ranks invested in linguistics) ended up being a strictly worse Guidance that only sometimes worked and could cripple me. I tried using it to boost my allies attack and I tried using it to help with ghoul paralysis saves but the +1 just never made a difference. I understand that the ability scales with your spirit bonus, but by the time you have +2 I hope the class would have something better to do than maybe give 1 person a +2 or maybe handicap yourself. For the risk involved there should be a better reward.

It was really disappointing that I couldn't trance the Vision's intermediate ability to get a spell as trance only lasts a minute and 15 are required to review a spell book. I never tranced the other spirits that I knew either, with the party mulching all of the enemies within the first 2 rounds and my low initiative, spending an entire turn tracing in combat was pointless and it never would have been useful outside of combat in the scenario I played in so my 1/day trance went unused. With a large and diverse party my skill checks were strictly worse and redundant.

Good data. Would it have changed matters if your skill bonus was +2 instead of +1 and your cryptic words as well? (aka specialization) Hmm, I just got an idea for a Unicorn/Twin[Vision] combo at level 5. Basically you aid another for +5 while also giving +3 from cryptic words. Support FTW!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Morgoon wrote:

I created a 2nd level support medium for my PFS game the other night.

The party consisted of a fighter, wizard, cleric, rouge, and ninja, a well rounded group but with no bard I decided to build a medium with a high charisma, good int, and decent dex for shooting a crossbow from range. We were exploring a tower with connections to the dark tapestry, sounded to me like a perfect match for the vision!

The character was terribly fun to role play, the other players at my table actually held hands during my seance and the fighter who had dead loved ones asked me to try to contact them.

Mechanically however I felt worthless. The seance bonus to knowledge arcana ended up being unnessicary and Cryptic Words (with 2 ranks invested in linguistics) ended up being a strictly worse Guidance that only sometimes worked and could cripple me. I tried using it to boost my allies attack and I tried using it to help with ghoul paralysis saves but the +1 just never made a difference. I understand that the ability scales with your spirit bonus, but by the time you have +2 I hope the class would have something better to do than maybe give 1 person a +2 or maybe handicap yourself. For the risk involved there should be a better reward.

It was really disappointing that I couldn't trance the Vision's intermediate ability to get a spell as trance only lasts a minute and 15 are required to review a spell book. I never tranced the other spirits that I knew either, with the party mulching all of the enemies within the first 2 rounds and my low initiative, spending an entire turn tracing in combat was pointless and it never would have been useful outside of combat in the scenario I played in so my 1/day trance went unused. With a large and diverse party my skill checks were strictly worse and redundant.

Good data. Would it have changed matters if your skill bonus was +2 instead of +1 and your cryptic words as well? (aka specialization) Hmm, I just got an idea for a Unicorn/Twin[Vision] combo at...

I would still not be too thrilled about using my standard action to give a bonus to just one roll when the whole thing might come crashing down on me.

I would be perhaps be happier if the check gave allies bonuses equal to 1+1/5 my skill ranks in linguistics, maybe (though these bonuses would have to be used in the next round). Or perhaps that should be wrapped into another higher level power? Just a thought.

Designer

Playtest is about to end in a few minutes. Thanks for your feedback and playtests of the medium. If it weren't for you guys, I wouldn't have been able to come up with as cool of an addition to the class as beseech, and I have even more ideas to make the medium awesome. It was great to work with you guys on the medium and explore the depths of the class's potential in so many different areas, from roleplaying possession to mechanical nuances. I can't wait to get the final class to you and watch the mixing and matching of the 54 spirits begin!

At the suggestion of the kineticist playtesters to wait until I finish the design team's post-playtest meeting and ensure that my proposed changes are accepted by the others, expect a post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish.

Cheers!
Mark


The mechanics of the class are interesting and refreshingly break out of the tradional spellcaster mechanics that would have been expected. I'd like to see more of this. One major problematic issue with the class is that it isn't at all a true professional spiritual medium. This class can only channel their own personal spirit and no spirit personal to other characters. If a character asks someone of this "medium" class to contact the spirit of a loved one, they can't do it. If someone askes someone of this "medium" class to contact a spirit inhabiting a home, they can't do it. To allow the class to be a professional "medium", they need to be able to contact and/or channel more spirits than just they're personal spirits. There could be a variety of ways to implement it to keep it from getting out of control. Maybe the need to overcome an ego check on like a weapon to channel a non-personal spirit. Maybe they need to be in physical contact with someone or something "haunted" to do the channeling. If you aren't doing to allow non-personal spirits to be contacted or channeled, you should rename the class to something else. I'd say spiritualist, but you already used it for another class in the same book. Maybe just spirit channeler.


I have not read all of this yet but there are more than a few problems, one suggestion I would like to make is about the saving throws. perhaps you give it a good save bonus and a bad save bonus. like the eidolon has and you can base what save is a good save for the moment like when you are Seance with a mental spirit you get your "good" save bonus for your will saves, dex will give good save bonus to ref saves and con and maybe str spirits give your good save bonus to your fort save. and your saves would be bad unless you were seanced with a spirit. Im not sure if you want to have the trance spirit give you your save bonus I think that would not work so well, but it is just an idea anyways.
some other things i think that could fix things up would be to tie other things to spirits like weapon proficiency. I mean you get a bigger hit dice essentially from a con spirit why not martial weapon proficiency or some exotic weapons that make sense for the spirits flavor like growing claws. wither it would be from the 1st power or the boon or added in as part of the spirit bonus or a new category that is either included or unincluded from a trance.
it looks like you want the medium to wear many hats and be able to change them out as the situation requires, and i see that you don't want this hat changing hero to wear as big a hat as some one who cant change hats form day to day. but if this guys hats are sooooo much smaller than the other players hats then he will obviously not be able to keep up in this crazy hat wearing world. And that is the problem with the medium right now.
his hats are relatively small his spell casting hat is slightly larger than the bloodrager with having more flexibility with the spirits. this hat is the smallest that you can wear and has it seems half its spirits dedicated to it those of wis int and cha having very little effect on combat out side of your tiny spell casting hat.
his combat hat is kind of hard to judge if you catch him unawares or while he is trying to be sneaky or socially or casty he can almost do nothing. with a long spear or a hanbo and 3/4th bab with no class abilities to help you fight at level 1, its a full action or standard depending on the level to change hats and having to take off the first round of combat in a surprise situation its kinda of a death sentence at almost any level which means once you have 2 channeled spirits one of them has to be dedicated to combat at like all times. with his combat spirits up he does ok not as good as a druid geared for combat but still pretty close from level 4-9 where druids shine they far our stripe the medium even if the medium goes for full on physical combat. but then the druids spell casting hat is the biggest out there depending on your opinion yes a wizard or arcanist can learn any spell he spends time looking to learn from his spell list but a druid every day has access to a full casting worth of spell slots and spell levels 3/4 bab and at level 4 the best form of natural attacks. to me this is the biggest problem with the medium is that his hats are smaller than that of the other classes that can do it all as it were.
lets cover the last hat his social/party face hat. most party faces in the game either back it up with more spells like the sorc and bard or lots and lots of skills like the rogue/ninja you get less spells than the bard or rogue and far less spells than either the bard or the sorcerer. now you do get some nice social extras from your spirit and even be one of the best party faces in the game right up next to the bard. the liar gives you immeasurable power over people of the opposite sex that are not auto hostile which is what i based most of this power on. the unicorn is a pale imitation of the bard and is utterly useless unless you make it interact with the flag barer and flag of ancient kings and a bit more aoe helping the whole party at level 1. and the twin seems like the uber hat switcher for later levels which should be pretty cool. the other thing you can bring to the table here is the i have god inside me like the paladin/anti can do except you can do it to good people bad people and thieves just as easy as saying boo which gives you an auto in with many people by calling on the proper spirit. and if you call down a god into your body then all bets are off. could give new meaning to Jesus take the wheel or satin/Buda for that matter
now dnd games are not all the same some are more combat some are more social some are 50/50 combat and social and all the parts in between but on a whole they have for me at least broken down to 60 combat/40 social and having a char who wears the biggest possible hat for 40% of all game time is pretty ok with the other 60% being carried by the rest of the party and playing a minor role in killing.
of course the next best party face can get nearly as good results out of the bard more skills than even a rogue when you count versatile performance letting you double dip form 3 performance skills giving you essentially 9 skills a lvl + int+ uber knowledge. and then adding in the superb combat capabilities you can get out of the bard with 1 feat and bardic performance at level 1 getting everyone +2 hit and dmg and all the buffs and ooc heals you could want. yup this is nothing but a pale imitation of the jack of all trades its self the Bard and needs a bit of a buff.
Sorry for the wall of text hope some of you take time to read it. :)

Liberty's Edge

Really lookng forward to the postmortem on this one. :)

Designer

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Really lookng forward to the postmortem on this one. :)

Probably Friday or Saturday. I pushed kineticist earlier due to people playing kineticists in games today or tomorrow. I'm likely to reveal a new spirit, since it's sort of the one that people have been asking for, as part of my "Certain features live in spirits you haven't seen yet" bullet point.

Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Having received more updates along the way than kineticist, the medium post mortem will have fewer bullet points. Thanks to all of you for your great medium playtests, I was able to hone in on a bunch of things that were a great help in my further spirit design. And in some ways, the answers to a lot of questions live in the remaining spirits. To whet your appetite, I will show you the spirit for which many people have been asking (well, you didn't ask for it by name, but I could tell you wanted it—check it out and see what I mean).

Empty Throne:
The Empty Throne (Lawful Good Charisma)
The Empty Throne is a spirit that promises that those who are gone will always be with us. The Empty Throne embodies the lessons they taught us, and the ancient knowledge they held. The Empty Throne might represent a creature that is capable of acting in the role of a psychopomp and bridging the gap between the living and the dead, a medium or spiritualist, or a particular member of the medium’s honored dead.
Spirit Bonus (Charisma): None
Séance Boon: Choose a séance boon from any of the spirits the medium knows
Spells: 1st—?,?; 2nd—?,?; 3rd—?,?; 4th—?,?
Compulsion: Respectful—You show unusual respect to elders and extreme respect to the dead, stopping to bury bodies you find and eschewing grave robbing.
Enhanced Séance (Lesser, Sp): You can use <redacted> at will as a spell-like ability. You are able to enhance you séance technique with the Empty Throne’s help. While this ability is active, all numerical bonuses and penalties from séance boons increase by half for all participants (rounded down).
Many Séances (Intermediate, Su): You can perform additional séances during the day. The new séances allow you to select your spirits and allow the spirits you choose to gain influence over you as normal. Each new séance grants new séance boons but ends the effects of your previous séance boons. You must choose to contact the Empty Throne in each new séance, and if the Empty Throne is not your primary spirit, you must still arrange your spirits such that you have this ability active at the end of the new séance. For each séance, your numerical bonuses and penalties from the Empty Throne’s séance boon increase by the Empty Throne’s spirit bonus instead of by half.
Personal Séance (Greater, Sp): You can perform personal séances throughout the day on behalf of another who is present for the séance. These personal séances take the same amount of time as a normal séance. Instead of a séance’s normal effects, the effects are similar to the spell call spirit except that the duration is 1 round per medium level instead of concentration, the modifier to the saving throw based on knowledge is based on the other person’s knowledge, and the spirit possesses your body instead of appearing in a wispy form. The other participants of the séance must ask the questions, and if you wish to end the séance early, you must succeed at a Will save (DC 20 + 1/2 medium level). If you begin a personal séance, you can continue the séance and receive the full duration of the effect even if you lose this ability partway through. This is an exception to the rule that all effects of a spirit power end when you lose that spirit power.
Ancestral Blessing (Supreme, Su): You do not incur influence with the Empty Throne for trances or séances while you have this ability. If you tranced or performed a séance and gained this ability as a result, that trance or séance does not incur influence with the Empty Throne.

So some other things (as I said for kineticist, everything in this post is speculative and subject to potential change):

*Beseech, if you haven't seen it yet, is likely going in. I'm tinkering around with it to be as awesome and fitting as possible.

*A fair amount of small changes in current spirits. For instance, Demon's Lantern's light brings a bane-ful outlook to the foes within, and it's easier to bring your shieldy wisp buddy along with you.

*Much simplified wording for the later spirits by assuming a small choice. Look how much simpler quaternary's section on what you get is now, for instance:

New Quaternary:
The quaternary spirit grants the medium its spirit bonus and not its spirit powers. If the medium already possesses a spirit bonus of the same ability score from his primary spirit, the quaternary spirit grants the medium its lesser spirit power. Either way, the medium gains all the quaternary spirit’s spells.

*Trance's duration scales slowly

*Some of the new spirits are mega-cool for some concepts you couldn't do with the 18 in the playtest. The Carnival, for instance is a veritable playground for illusion fans, or use the Tangled Briar to haunt your enemy with those they have lost or murdered!

*If you already have some or all of the spirits' granted feats, it will likely give you a small benefit in exchange. Not as powerful as a feat or anything, so you don't feel obligated to take the feats to get at the "real power," but something extra for the medium who loves the spirit so much he's going to take the feat permanently.

Thanks to everyone for your feedback throughout the playtest! It was pretty clear that kineticist was going to have the biggest thread before we even started, but I thought occultist would be second. It's thanks to you guys that we made medium #2 and generated whole bunches of useful playtest data. Have a happy holiday season and a great new year too!

~Mark

Liberty's Edge

All of those changes sound excellent! :)

Any way you could tell us whether the Medium wound up getting another Good Save? I remember that being discussed as a possibility early on...


All of that sounds really solid, Mark.

I kinda-sorta worry about empty throne channeling the beating's seance boon for massive damage though. Is that working as intended? It is cool if it is working as intended. It would let me play this as a support class more effectively.

Designer

Excaliburproxy wrote:

All of that sounds really solid, Mark.

I kinda-sorta worry about empty throne channeling the beating's seance boon for massive damage though. Is that working as intended? It is cool if it is working as intended. It would let me play this as a support class more effectively.

It's as-intended, and I specifically looked through all the boons with an eye towards whether this would be a problem (the biggest one is the Carnival's current +1 to illusion DCs boon, for the medium only of course, since it's +1 and not +2). With Beating, your allies get +3, and when you have the intermediate power, you can get 2+spirit bonus. If you also channel the Beating, it doesn't stack though.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

All of that sounds really solid, Mark.

I kinda-sorta worry about empty throne channeling the beating's seance boon for massive damage though. Is that working as intended? It is cool if it is working as intended. It would let me play this as a support class more effectively.

It's as-intended, and I specifically looked through all the boons with an eye towards whether this would be a problem (the biggest one is the Carnival's current +1 to illusion DCs boon, for the medium only of course, since it's +1 and not +2). With Beating, your allies get +3, and when you have the intermediate power, you can get 2+spirit bonus. If you also channel the Beating, it doesn't stack though.

Ahhh. Well, you are still looking pretty badass building for melee, then.

Empty throne+Owl (or whatever that is called)+Big Sky (or really most strength spirits)=wrecking fools every day with massive damage (2x or 3x spirit bonus + 2 extra damage). Though arguably, that is not so different from some of the flat damage bonuses Swashbucklers get or cavaliers/paladins get when challenging a guy.

Still, I am going to call the empty throne a boost to the maximum melee potential of this class.

Designer

Excaliburproxy wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:

All of that sounds really solid, Mark.

I kinda-sorta worry about empty throne channeling the beating's seance boon for massive damage though. Is that working as intended? It is cool if it is working as intended. It would let me play this as a support class more effectively.

It's as-intended, and I specifically looked through all the boons with an eye towards whether this would be a problem (the biggest one is the Carnival's current +1 to illusion DCs boon, for the medium only of course, since it's +1 and not +2). With Beating, your allies get +3, and when you have the intermediate power, you can get 2+spirit bonus. If you also channel the Beating, it doesn't stack though.

Ahhh. Well, you are still looking pretty badass building for melee, then.

Empty throne+Owl (or whatever that is called)+Big Sky (or really most strength spirits)=wrecking fools every day with massive damage (2x or 3x spirit bonus + 2 extra damage). Though arguably, that is not so different from some of the flat damage bonuses Swashbucklers get or cavaliers/paladins get when challenging a guy.

Still, I am going to call the empty throne a boost to the maximum melee potential of this class.

Oh, if you can get the situational bonuses from spirits like Owl (or situational increases or doubling from Fiend/Paladin/Keep), you can get pretty big numbers with the right combination of spirits. But at the point that you picked your spirits entirely for that and managed to pull off your best situational combination, I'm perfectly cool with that! The medium should be a class that can do the awesome thing you want by choosing the right spirit, and that has the flexibility to allow for numerous fun combinations of powers.


Looks really cool. Out of curiosity, how far along would you say you are with the final design of the 54 spirits? Are all of them at least statted out in some state close to completion? How much more time do you think you'll work on them with internal playtesting, thought exercises and such?

Designer

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After much toil, the spirits do all have a current iteration in the current medium, all 54 of them. The playtest medium in my Skull and Shackles game will probably use them, if that gets started again, and I've already done a bunch of theorycrafting and thought exercises to work out many of the combos.


Is the Demon's Lantern Dancing lights "Bane-full" like ability going to be bane the spell or the weapon enhancement?

It would require a bit of reworking but that would be a neat little ability.

I like the Idea of a little ball of light that gives allies the bane enhancement against enemies in its area.Seems to me that thats a great party tactic if worded properly.

Designer

It is definitely not an area of effect weapon enhancement.

The Exchange

any way you could put beseech in your first post so that it is an official revision so we could playtest it in pfs? or find a way to make any of the changes pfs legal?

Designer

Hangman Henry IX wrote:
any way you could put beseech in your first post so that it is an official revision so we could playtest it in pfs? or find a way to make any of the changes pfs legal?

In terms of plans for new abilities, nothing in any of the six first posts is legal in PFS, only the clarifications/errata of mistakes in the playtest document. That includes new spirits, new wild talents, new disciplines, new mesmerist changes, etc.


I've played the medium a few times, and my feedback is mostly for thematic purposes. What if instead of 'spirits', they channel the magical powers of one of the outer planes, gaining abilities of their denizens. It would cut down of the number of spirits but still have the functionality.

Even if you don't change the medium, something like this would be good for a prestige class.


Question: Do mediums have to be possessed by a spirit that shares their alignment? I kind of like the idea of a good medium being haunted and controlled by evil spirits or an evil medium being haunted or controlled by their previous victims haunting them...

Liberty's Edge

Nox Caedes wrote:
Question: Do mediums have to be possessed by a spirit that shares their alignment? I kind of like the idea of a good medium being haunted and controlled by evil spirits or an evil medium being haunted or controlled by their previous victims haunting them...

They do not. Indeed, the alignment of spirits is almost immaterial. It has some effect in terms of what they influence you to do, but it's not a straightjacket or anything, and nothing inherently prevents a Medium/Paladin from channeling CE spirits exclusively.

So yeah, that works...though mechanically the Spirits a Medium channels never actually take control unless the Medium's player decides they do.


Here's an archetype idea. Please ignore the wording.

Haunted Sage

(Name?): The Haunted Sage must choose one spirit. The Haunted Sage can only ever contact that one spirit. The spirit bonus for the Haunted Sage is doubled This ability alters the spirit and spirit bonus abilities.

Empowering Trance: As a swift action, the Haunted Sage can focus on his spirit to grant him the next ability that the spirit has that he currently does not have (Lesser to intermediate to greater to supreme) for a number of rounds equal to either his charisma of wisdom modifier, depending on his spirit. This ability can be used 3 times per day. At 3rd level and every 3 levels after, this ability can be used an additional time per day.
This ability replaces trance.

(Name?): At 5th level, the Haunted Sage doubles the bonus of the spirits boon ability. At 11th level, the Haunted sage triples the spirits boon ability. At 17th level, the Haunted Sage quadruples the spirits boon ability. This ability replaces Dual Vessel, triune vessel and Fourfold Vessel.

Focal Point: At 19th level, the Haunted Sage can provide the powers of his spirit to another character. That character gains all of the spirit powers as if he was haunted by the spirit himself.

Liberty's Edge

Could someone do me a favor and explain the classes abilities to me in a way that doesn't completely screw with my brain? I can barely understand a word of it out of harrow spirits and some form of mutlipule personality disorder induced by ghosts.

All I know is that these classes are hiliarous for RP situations and will mean that I can now play a character who loves his party so much he wants to disembowel them all while they sleep.

Grand Lodge

I know that this playtest is closed, but is there going to be a second round of playtesting for Occult Adventures -- or, at least, this class?

With the spirits that were released in this forum, as well as the Beseech Spirit ability, I'm thinking that a second round might be able to give a better feel for the direction the class is heading? If nothing else, the spirits that were released alone during the playtest put a completely different spin on selecting spirits and figuring out which ones to contact.

(The Beseech Spirit ability alone completely changed the way I look at selecting CHA spirits, and that's a major consideration seeing as how CHA is supposed to be one of the things you're dumping points into in order to make the class work.)

Liberty's Edge

nighttree wrote:
I would rather see the "DM takeover" bar removed completely...if the players character moves into the "possessed" realm....let the PLAYER RP that...it is an RP game after all...

I would do that, since the whole element of the possession is along the lines of 'they spirit takes over the body, and is drawn to succumb to their conpulsion. For better or worse.

Liberty's Edge

I'm really looking forward to getting the occult adventurers book now, just to see what hi-jinks will ensue when the spirits take the character of the rails and into the compulsion territories. And facing other mediums as foes, who might be evil, or just possessed. All in all, i cannot wait to see what kind of occult madness ensues. thank you , people of Paizo for this offering, and the people of the forums for making the reading enjoyable and understandable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Alright, I'm planning to playtest a level 8 medium soon, but I have tried out a first-level one in PFS. I've started reading this thread, but I'm not caught up so please pardon any repetition.

Callum Todd the Kitsune didn't know what he was getting into, but he did try. For the first session (with an 18 CHA because I'm in the habit of maxing out any class's casting/ability-determining stat), he picked The Liar, The Demon's Lantern, The Rabbit Prince, and The Twins. That was a mistake, since I was looking mainly at the stats I wanted to focus on--I had envisioned him being able to switch between a dex-based fighter and a face sort of character. At level one, neither of these was possible.

The scenario was The Overflow Archive.

He spent the session following behind the group, failing to make any charisma-based checks because he only had 5 skill points and trying to cover my bases left Bluff the only charisma check. He had The Liar seanced, but in practice it gave him no benefit at all. He did trance Demon's Lantern during combat, though, and managed to blow up a wisp--he just moved it back and forth in and out of a crocodile's space to taunt it, and the croc finally bit.

That was really satisfying! I was excited! But in practical terms, I spent 3 rounds to deal 1d6 damage (one full round to trance, one standard to summon a wisp, and then two turns' worth of move actions to tempt the croc into attacking).

After that, Callum had no choice but to stand back and miss with his crossbow a lot. He had no other class abilities, very very few skills (and all ones that others in the group could do better), and a very short list of weapons, none of which gave him more bang for his buck than the crossbow. He did get to help solve to riddle at the end (to the great indignity of his fellow kitsune), but that had nothing to with the character at all.

Second session, the next night because we have a friend learning to DM and she wants to run as many modules as possible, was The Confirmation.

Since he's still level one, I switched Callum's chosen spirits beforehand to see if I could get a more useful combo. This time he chose The Rabbit Prince, Demon's Lantern again, The Bear, and The Cricket. The Rabbit Prince was his seance this time for the sake of coordinating with any of his others for Trance, so his skill versatility dropped even farther without the Charisma bonus.

The Confirmation is pretty straightforward, so we're mostly talking combat. The Rabbit Prince's free Weapon Finesse let him use a rapier with the same skill as the crossbow, which is handy for melee needs but he probably would have been better off just avoiding melee. He still has no spells, and he's guarding his once a day trance jealously since it's only one a day. As it happened, we killed the minotaur at the end before he ever got to us it.

My impressions:

I had fun RPing the character concept. Like, probably too much fun. Callum bought himself a spellbook right off the bat and used it as a dream journal/spirit journal/wizard-fake-out (my sorcerer has gotten out of more scrapes than I'd care to admit by pretending to be a wizard and letting enemies 'disarm' him of his spellbook). He was vague and smelled like weird incense and if I'd had skill points to spare I would have given him Profession: Fortune Teller. Especially with The Liar's influence the first time, he was a blast from a character point of view.

Mechanically, though, he really fell flat. I felt like a cleric whose god was mad at him. He couldn't do any substantial damage with a weapon because of the short list, he couldn't cast any spells, and since Charisma doesn't impact his one good save they were all equally low and he failed the only save he did attempt.

I do think that the addition of more spirits will open up more options, but as everyone whose posts I've read so far points out, right now a strength build is the most viable one and that's not even close to what I wanted to play with a supposedly versatile class. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions on ways the mechanics could be streamlined, but I'm only on page 10 of reading the thread so I'm not sure what the most recent ones are.

My first instinct is to agree that the class needs either more BAB or spells from first. I like the suggestion of a very short list of inherent medium spells available regardless of seance, that would give you a little bit more to fall back on. I think that influence limits trance usage without necessitating a daily limit, and that trances take too long--at will as a move action sounds better to me, since you still can't go beyond your influence levels from day to day.

Maybe the influence cap could go up as you level--it's 4 at 1st, then increases by one at 4th level and every three levels after that, for instance. That would represent the Medium's ability to control his powers or coordinate with his spirit friends, depending on the flavor you want, and would reward staying in the class instead of dipping.

I also saw a suggestion early in the thread for simplifying the spirits by dividing them up into three or four tiers of power, and giving each spirit one ability with power appropriate to its tier. I think that's cool, but I imagine it's a bit late to make drastic changes like that. I look forward to seeing the final version!

I'll report back after I playtest the higher level version of Callum, so stayed tuned for more of his luckless ventures!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I just realized how long it's been since this thread saw activity, and it's too late to edit my post. Sorry! That's what I get for not actually catching all the way up.


myarmcanfly wrote:
I just realized how long it's been since this thread saw activity, and it's too late to edit my post. Sorry! That's what I get for not actually catching all the way up.

While it likely is alreadya finished or near finished book stuff.

No reason not to toss it up here if you can~

Even if they don't use it, it helps anyone else browsing gain an impression on the class.

While it won't be valid once the book comes out. Until then it's still neat ot talk about or provide other players data stuff. FOr non pfs games

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