I dig it. Gives more reasons to have better than the bare-minimum Charisma, and gives some additional nice options on top of that. And since you're not hamstringed by alignment or ability score, it gives you some nice toys to play with, regardless of what your primary spirit is.
While you've got the time, I suggest you edit your spoiler to include you can use it a number of times a day equal to your Charisma modifier, if that's how it works. :)
It's not quite how it works, but at level 2 or 3, it's probably equal to your Cha modifier + 1.
Mark...nother silly question...with One Man's Trash, are improvised weapons weapons?
Also, digging the hell out of the "new ability"...I'm going to be running a session of Rise of the Runelords with a 4th level Medium in it and I need to make the player aware of this ability.
Mark...nother silly question...with One Man's Trash, are improvised weapons weapons?
Also, digging the hell out of the "new ability"...I'm going to be running a session of Rise of the Runelords with a 4th level Medium in it and I need to make the player aware of this ability.
I'm going to have to decide with One Man's Trash. Improvised specifically work with Uprising, but One Man's Trash I think cancels Uprising's lesser power or vice versa even if so, which is honestly a good thing or you could stack improvised weapons into the stratosphere!
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Very nice ability indeed conceptually. Elegant, even. A very good way to make spirit selection really meaningful even for spirits you never channel.
However, I feel like Int and Wis are, in some ways, almost doing the reverse of what they should (especially Int). The Class's current issue seems to be that there's nothing for a character to do in combat other than attack physically...and yet, it's only the spirits that already aid in physical combat (well, and Charisma) that allow direct effects that aren't just self-buffs with limited combat utility (blindsight is great, but doesn't really help you be good at combat if you weren't good at combat in the first place).
I mean, an Int or Wis spirit focused guy winds up even more behind the Str focused guy in combat prowess since his Int or Wis spirits can never help with that. I feel like at least one of those (thematically, almost certainly Int) should, I dunno, be a Will Save based debuff effect (something the effect list is lacking), rather than just another skill bonus.
Very nice ability indeed conceptually. Elegant, even. A very good way to make spirit selection really meaningful even for spirits you never channel.
However, I feel like Int and Wis are, in some ways, almost doing the reverse of what they should (especially Int). The Class's current issue seems to be that there's nothing for a character to do in combat other than attack physically...and yet, it's only the spirits that already aid in physical combat (well, and Charisma) that allow direct effects that aren't just self-buffs with limited combat utility (blindsight is great, but doesn't really help you be good at combat if you weren't good at combat in the first place).
I mean, an Int or Wis spirit focused guy winds up even more behind the Str focused guy in combat prowess since his Int or Wis spirits can never help with that. I feel like at least one of those (thematically, almost certainly Int) should, I dunno, be a Will Save based debuff effect (something the effect list is lacking), rather than just another skill bonus.
I agree with this. Maybe int could be a wizard-y single target ranged spell and wisdom could be a debuff?
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The new ability looks pretty sweet, I have to say, and looks balanced enough to not be an issue at higher levels. Was it inspired by channel energy at all? (It kind of looks like it, and if so, I think it's an awesome place to get inspiration from.)
The thing I like the most about it is that it makes the later decisions for known spirits so much more interesting. It also makes the "extra spirits" feat a smidgen more useful.
I do have to ask--does the Wisdom bonus make the instances of See Invisibility on the spirit spell lists worth reconsidering?
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Very nice ability indeed conceptually. Elegant, even. A very good way to make spirit selection really meaningful even for spirits you never channel.
However, I feel like Int and Wis are, in some ways, almost doing the reverse of what they should (especially Int). The Class's current issue seems to be that there's nothing for a character to do in combat other than attack physically...and yet, it's only the spirits that already aid in physical combat (well, and Charisma) that allow direct effects that aren't just self-buffs with limited combat utility (blindsight is great, but doesn't really help you be good at combat if you weren't good at combat in the first place).
I mean, an Int or Wis spirit focused guy winds up even more behind the Str focused guy in combat prowess since his Int or Wis spirits can never help with that. I feel like at least one of those (thematically, almost certainly Int) should, I dunno, be a Will Save based debuff effect (something the effect list is lacking), rather than just another skill bonus.
This ability is for encouraging a diversity of spirit attributes, your Int/Wis Medium should perhaps have a Str, Con or Dex spirit known.
...Though I'm totally not against Wis being changed to a neat debuff. I love me some neat debuffs.
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Very nice ability indeed conceptually. Elegant, even. A very good way to make spirit selection really meaningful even for spirits you never channel.
However, I feel like Int and Wis are, in some ways, almost doing the reverse of what they should (especially Int). The Class's current issue seems to be that there's nothing for a character to do in combat other than attack physically...and yet, it's only the spirits that already aid in physical combat (well, and Charisma) that allow direct effects that aren't just self-buffs with limited combat utility (blindsight is great, but doesn't really help you be good at combat if you weren't good at combat in the first place).
I mean, an Int or Wis spirit focused guy winds up even more behind the Str focused guy in combat prowess since his Int or Wis spirits can never help with that. I feel like at least one of those (thematically, almost certainly Int) should, I dunno, be a Will Save based debuff effect (something the effect list is lacking), rather than just another skill bonus.
While I agree on one level, I'm wondering if maybe the goal here wasn't to strengthen the spirits themselves but to make it more appealing to start with a wider variety of spirits? If the class isn't meant to be able to purely survive on Int or Wis, this extra ability might make it feasible to start with, say, very high int, high cha, and enough spirits that you could take a strength spirit. Or, say, a con spirit and play at being a bad emergency cleric.
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Hmmm. Looking at the radii, is 5' going to be too small an area at 2nd? For the neediest mediums (they're working on the papers to start their nonprofit "feat bank" organization) requiring them to get within melee range might be a bit steep.
(ed: of course a 1st level medium won't be getting the ability...)
Probably not, given the class is already extremely dippable for tasty lesser powers. But certainly no later than 3rd.....
Okay, yes, I approve.
EDIT: Is this ability gained at 1st level?
I like....
I would say 2nd level...even if it means moving shared seance to a later level. It's more useful where you need the useful ;)|
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I agree with this. Maybe int could be a wizard-y single target ranged spell and wisdom could be a debuff?
That'd work, though I feel that Wis being a sensory effect also makes a lot of thematic sense.
This ability is for encouraging a diversity of spirit attributes, your Int/Wis Medium should perhaps have a Str, Con or Dex spirit known.
True enough, but I feel like a dedicated Medium of any particular stat should be a valid choice conceptually. And Int and Wis Mediums probably need the most help in the area of non-physical attack options. Plus, having an offensive 'spell' as the Int effect makes a lot of sense thematically.
...Though I'm totally not against Wis being changed to a neat debuff. I love me some neat debuffs.
Who doesn't?
While I agree on one level, I'm wondering if maybe the goal here wasn't to strengthen the spirits themselves but to make it more appealing to start with a wider variety of spirits? If the class isn't meant to be able to purely survive on Int or Wis, this extra ability might make it feasible to start with, say, very high int, high cha, and enough spirits that you could take a strength spirit. Or, say, a con spirit and play at being a bad emergency cleric.
Right...but each spirit is one use only. A single Str spirit is one area attack per day, for example. Besides, a dedicated Int, Wis, and Dex Medium (half the stats, bear in mind) doesn't have a single offensive or generally applicable defensive ability from their spirits...and that seems wrong.
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Probably not, given the class is already extremely dippable for tasty lesser powers. But certainly no later than 3rd.....
Okay, yes, I approve.
EDIT: Is this ability gained at 1st level?
I like....
I would say 2nd level...even if it means moving shared seance to a later level. It's more useful where you need the useful ;)
I don't see a particularly compelling argument for making the new ability or Shared Seance move out of 2nd level. They can both sit there without creating an imbalance.
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Hmmm. Looking at the radii, is 5' going to be too small an area at 2nd? For the neediest mediums (they're working on the papers to start their nonprofit "feat bank" organization) requiring them to get within melee range might be a bit steep.
(ed: of course a 1st level medium won't be getting the ability...)
Well if they take Spirit Specialization at level 1, that gets raised to a 10 foot radius ;)
Man, Wisdom is one of my favorites. Early access to Blindsight? Heck yes! I hope the range is at least 10ft x spirit bonus. (Or a set distance.) But seriously, I'll take Blindsight over True Seeing at later levels.
Also, Charisma has The Twin for any build to pick up once they have spirits they like.
All in all, I think this is a great improvement. I'm busy admiring how many design goals this satisfies all at once.
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I reverse-psychologied you all! Bwahahahaha!
Ahem. I mean, here's the new ability everyone. Format and wording are rough, of course!
** spoiler omitted **
this seems great at 3, which was pretty much a dead level already.
i like that it gives you a reason not only to have high charisma, but makes learning charisma spirits that much better.
i still think you should be able to trance more often, but this definitely gives people something to do, without being too wild.
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Right...but each spirit is one use only. A single Str spirit is one area attack per day, for example. Besides, a dedicated Int, Wis, and Dex Medium (half the stats, bear in mind) doesn't have a single offensive or generally applicable defensive ability from their spirits...and that seems wrong.
My 5th level playtest character is rocking two Dex spirits basically 24/7 and is a very respectable melee beatstick and tank. (Rabbit Prince is cool like that.)
My thought is that perhaps there are other spirits still to come that might likewise provide direct combat utility, even to the point of perhaps acting as Strength spirits, in the Wisdom or Intelligence arena. We already have one of those in the form of the Owl - other, even stronger options might yet be on the way. I certainly don't know that this is what Mark has up his sleeve, but it's worth remembering we've only seen maybe 40% of the total spirits.
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Mark, here's a question for you--if I have a spirit in a state where it counts as two categories of spirit (say, Big Sky with its intermediate power, so it's Strength and Dex) and I use a standard action to Beseech that spirit, does it also behave as both categories (Str and Dex) for the Beseech action? (I think it's a pretty cool side effect, but not sure if it's RAI.) If you're okay with that, there's an order of operations clarification you may want to consider making so we know whether a Beseeched Big Sky would have you damage enemies and then move, or move and then damage, or you decide.
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My 5th level playtest character is rocking two Dex spirits basically 24/7 and is a very respectable melee beatstick and tank. (Rabbit Prince is cool like that.)
Ah, my bad for not explaining clearly. I meant aside from physical combat. I was under the impression, that these powers were to give Mediums who lack physical combat abilities something to do in combat. How do the Dex, Int, and Wis powers just revealed help with that?
Now, you're right, there are ways to get very solid physical combat with Dex, which is why I'm not really complaining about its power...I just think a primarily Int/Wis spirit build with a Dex spirit or two they rarely use should still have something to do in a fight,
My thought is that perhaps there are other spirits still to come that might likewise provide direct combat utility, even to the point of perhaps acting as Strength spirits, in the Wisdom or Intelligence arena. We already have one of those in the form of the Owl - other, even stronger options might yet be on the way. I certainly don't know that this is what Mark has up his sleeve, but it's worth remembering we've only seen maybe 40% of the total spirits.
True enough...but again, I was under the impression that part of the point of these new powers was to give a Medium with, say, Str 8, Dex 14 and no directly combative Feats something more useful than plunking away with a crossbow to do on their turn. And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?
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And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?
I was initially under a similar impression. Given how the Beseech ability works, though, and how Mark's doubled down on the themes of each type of spirit, I'm starting to believe that a well-constructed medium may invest more in one particular area (say, int, wis, or cha) but shouldn't typically be completely dedicated. You are totally free to create a medium who does not have any combat spirits, but if you want to contribute meaningfully in combat you will probably want to grab a medium who helps you in that area in some way. And that spirit is probably a Strength or Constitution spirit.
It looks as though spirits are not like feats in terms of how they should be chosen during character creation and level up--at least not early on; a medium's path to contribution may not lie exclusively through focusing on one area but rather in having a variety of very different options available by using a variety of different spirits. If you want to use a non-traditional medium stat as your primary stat (as if we have traditional mediums barely two weeks into the playtest period!) you may want to invest extra in Charisma to pick up an extra spirit, or in the Extra Spirits feat, so that you can invest both in your area of expertise and also in combat.
Pathfinder the system has no qualms about letting players build bad characters, and maybe the medium will just be one of those classes that gives you extra opportunity to do so.
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True enough...but again, I was under the impression that part of the point of these new powers was to give a Medium with, say, Str 8, Dex 14 and no directly combative Feats something more useful than plunking away with a crossbow to do on their turn. And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?
I realize that this isn't your point at all, but I now kinda want to make a guy with Str 8 who got beat up a lot as a kid, and now finds himself with a really strong connection to the Beating...
And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?I was initially under a similar impression. Given how the Beseech ability works, though, and how Mark's doubled down on the themes of each type of spirit, I'm starting to believe that a well-constructed medium may invest more in one particular area (say, int, wis, or cha) but shouldn't typically be completely dedicated. You are totally free to create a medium who does not have any combat spirits, but if you want to contribute meaningfully in combat you will probably want to grab a medium who helps you in that area in some way. And that spirit is probably a Strength or Constitution spirit.
It looks as though spirits are not like feats in terms of how they should be chosen during character creation and level up--at least not early on; a medium's path to contribution may not lie exclusively through focusing on one area but rather in having a variety of very different options available by using a variety of different spirits. If you want to use a non-traditional medium stat as your primary stat (as if we have traditional mediums barely two weeks into the playtest period!) you may want to invest extra in Charisma to pick up an extra spirit, or in the Extra Spirits feat, so that you can invest both in your area of expertise and also in combat.
Pathfinder the system has no qualms about letting players build bad characters, and maybe the medium will just be one of those classes that gives you extra opportunity to do so.
Also Charisma spirits are not always very combat-y, and they are really nice with Beseech. I imagine a "support" medium at level 4 who doesn't really want to hit things and has poor Str and Dex might have 6 spirits known, mixed between Int, Wis, Cha, and the less aggressive Dex and Con (such as Desert).
Okay I'm not exactly caught up on like 10 pages of this thread can anyone get me a TL;DR of the real or percieved problems with the class?
In the meantime: I like the class but seems to be stepping on Pact Magic's the Occultist.
My first instinct was to specialize in one spirit as my 'best buddy' spirit with the rest being my backup band. This worked out for me, at least at level 5 it did.
If I were to change one thing about the class I'd make it 6/9 caster. The spirit powers aren't all that great
The influence mechanic seems pointless until it gets to 3+ influence. This also makes the trance limiter a bit weird. I would love to see compulsions as actions to take that that gives you buffs or grants bonus spells or are some kind of cool power at the cost of influence. Would make players more likely to act out compulsions at influence 1-3.
I'm not fond of the trance limiter as it makes trance too short and too few times a day. Personally I'd love to increase the.
Charisma Spirits don't feel like they compensate for their lack of spirit bonuses.
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Also Charisma spirits are not always very combat-y, and they are really nice with Beseech. I imagine a "support" medium at level 4 who doesn't really want to hit things and has poor Str and Dex might have 6 spirits known, mixed between Int, Wis, Cha, and the less aggressive Dex and Con (such as Desert).And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?I was initially under a similar impression. Given how the Beseech ability works, though, and how Mark's doubled down on the themes of each type of spirit, I'm starting to believe that a well-constructed medium may invest more in one particular area (say, int, wis, or cha) but shouldn't typically be completely dedicated. You are totally free to create a medium who does not have any combat spirits, but if you want to contribute meaningfully in combat you will probably want to grab a medium who helps you in that area in some way. And that spirit is probably a Strength or Constitution spirit.
It looks as though spirits are not like feats in terms of how they should be chosen during character creation and level up--at least not early on; a medium's path to contribution may not lie exclusively through focusing on one area but rather in having a variety of very different options available by using a variety of different spirits. If you want to use a non-traditional medium stat as your primary stat (as if we have traditional mediums barely two weeks into the playtest period!) you may want to invest extra in Charisma to pick up an extra spirit, or in the Extra Spirits feat, so that you can invest both in your area of expertise and also in combat.
Pathfinder the system has no qualms about letting players build bad characters, and maybe the medium will just be one of those classes that gives you extra opportunity to do so.
True enough...the balance between direct effects and personal enhancement just feels off, with only 3/6 abilities that are supposed to be able to replace direct combat actually doing so (and one of those only by default...if you ignore Charisma it's only 2/5). The Int power also seems a little, I dunno, redundant? It literally adds to the same thing Int spirits grant by default, something not true of an of the other powers. Plus, there's the whole 'Int are casters' theme, that's reinforced by them getting more spells known, and seems like it should be reinforced by the power as well.
If Int and Int alone were changed to some sort of debuff, that would fix the problem entirely in my eyes.
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True enough...but again, I was under the impression that part of the point of these new powers was to give a Medium with, say, Str 8, Dex 14 and no directly combative Feats something more useful than plunking away with a crossbow to do on their turn. And that's not a guy I'd expect to have a whole lot of Str spirits in his portfolio, y'know?I realize that this isn't your point at all, but I now kinda want to make a guy with Str 8 who got beat up a lot as a kid, and now finds himself with a really strong connection to the Beating...
That actually sounds like a lot of fun conceptually.
Also, the Beating grants it's bonuses even when using, say, Weapon Finesse. Grabbing an Agile AoMF, Piranha Strike, and, well, beating people sounds valid and effective mechanically.
That'd likely need more than Dex 14 to be effective, of course. :)
So, doesn't this ability not only reward player for having a high Charisma, it actually is the most-optimal way to build it? Thus incentivising having charisma scores well over 14 - probably closer to 18 or 20?
Which brings back my earlier issue of having a very large number of Spirits known at low levels: Now - assuming a very-likely base 16 raise to 18 from Racial Bonus at lv1 plus increasing Cha at every chance - it'll be 11 spirits known at lv12, and at 20 it's 16 Spirits.
One of the things I like about the Int bonus is that, as it is (and I sincerely hope it remains like this), you can use it multiple times on one check if your bonus is enough. Great for something like The Rakshasa or The Liar, where skills get extra mechanical effects. Also handy for those skills where over-succeeding gives bonuses- Intimidate, Diplomacy, Knowledge, etc. Or for making normally-impossible DCs, like locating invisible things. If you roll really well to begin with, you don't have to spend all your dice on it, and you can save one for later.
Which brings back my earlier issue of having a very large number of Spirits known at low levels: Now - assuming a very-likely base 16 raise to 18 from Racial Bonus at lv1 plus increasing Cha at every chance - it'll be 11 spirits known at lv12, and at 20 it's 16 Spirits.
Cool! I'm still expecting a lot of 16s after racials. 14 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Cha, and some points to drop in Int and Con, but it's nice that there's good incentive to collect lots of spirits.
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Okay I'm not exactly caught up on like 10 pages of this thread can anyone get me a TL;DR of the real or percieved problems with the class?
The class seems to grow in power exponentially with level. All of its abilities start extremely limited and then grow in uses/day, power, and variety as you level up. That means the class as written in the playtest is going to be:
1. Extremely dependent on the options (spirits) available to it,2. Weaker when many of the options are not available,
3. Painfully limited at low level when you can only select one or two abilities, and
4. Probably much more powerful than we give it credit for at high and very high level.
Many of the concerns have been around the limitations of low-level mediums, the limitations of non-melee-focused mediums, and the influence mechanic.
Are those concerns valid and will the valid ones be addressed? Mark has made some "unofficial" additions, posting additional spirits as he designs them and last night posting a new ability. The ability seems designed to expand the class's combat options, particularly at low levels, in a fashion not unlike what Channel Energy does for clerics. Additional spirits will hopefully make different (non-melee) medium builds more promising, although as things come into focus it seems like the class rewards flexibility rather than dedicated "I'm incredibly good at X" builds. Influence is essentially a hard cap of 3 with one additional use if you really want to use it, and seems unlikely to be addressed. (Although Mark is really the person to talk to about all of this.)
My two cents: it seems like there's a lot of interest and a lot of people excited by the class's potential. Medium is shaping up to be one of the best classes to come out of Occult Adventures, and Mark's done a fantastic job with it. It almost seems like a spellcaster where spells are replaced by (mostly passive) abilities. You prepare the abilities you want for the day and every now and then you can "spontaneously cast" a new one. Designing a good medium build will probably require a larger amount of system mastery than other classes as many of the obvious "freebies" like high BAB, high HP, and bonus feats aren't provided and instead you need to make up for them with combinations of spirits.
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Note: Actually, I think a ranged Medium build might be very viable. Strength spirit's spirit bonus does apply on ranged attacks after all. Now, so far, their powers have been melee focused, but who says that's gonna be universal?
So, doesn't this ability not only reward player for having a high Charisma, it actually is the most-optimal way to build it? Thus incentivising having charisma scores well over 14 - probably closer to 18 or 20?
Which brings back my earlier issue of having a very large number of Spirits known at low levels: Now - assuming a very-likely base 16 raise to 18 from Racial Bonus at lv1 plus increasing Cha at every chance - it'll be 11 spirits known at lv12, and at 20 it's 16 Spirits.
Eh. As abilities go, this one is on par with Channel Energy in raw power, though more versatile. I wouldn't expect many 18-20s, though 16s do seem quite a bit more likely...though 14s remain viable.
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So, doesn't this ability not only reward player for having a high Charisma, it actually is the most-optimal way to build it? Thus incentivising having charisma scores well over 14 - probably closer to 18 or 20?
Depends on the build I suspect, but the damage and healing seem broadly comparable to Channel Energy, with much lower range early on.
Which brings back my earlier issue of having a very large number of Spirits known at low levels: Now - assuming a very-likely base 16 raise to 18 from Racial Bonus at lv1 plus increasing Cha at every chance - it'll be 11 spirits known at lv12, and at 20 it's 16 Spirits.
The complexity has not been going down, but characters are still probably only going to have a couple of predetermined loadouts. The new ability is more likely to provide a benefit for additional spirits known at higher levels, where you've already gotten the 2-4 you really love--now you have a reason to care about the other 10 or 15 spirits you know!
Okay I'm not exactly caught up on like 10 pages of this thread can anyone get me a TL;DR of the real or percieved problems with the class?The class seems to grow in power exponentially with level. All of its abilities start extremely limited and then grow in uses/day, power, and variety as you level up. That means the class as written in the playtest is going to be:
1. Extremely dependent on the options (spirits) available to it,
2. Weaker when many of the options are not available,
3. Painfully limited at low level when you can only select one or two abilities, and
4. Probably much more powerful than we give it credit for at high and very high level.Many of the concerns have been around the limitations of low-level mediums, the limitations of non-melee-focused mediums, and the influence mechanic.
Are those concerns valid and will the valid ones be addressed? Mark has made some "unofficial" additions, posting additional spirits as he designs them and last night posting a new ability. The ability seems designed to expand the class's combat options, particularly at low levels, in a fashion not unlike what Channel Energy does for clerics. Additional spirits will hopefully make different (non-melee) medium builds more promising, although as things come into focus it seems like the class rewards flexibility rather than dedicated "I'm incredibly good at X" builds. Influence is essentially a hard cap of 3 with one additional use if you really want to use it, and seems unlikely to be addressed. (Although Mark is really the person to talk to about all of this.)
My two cents: it seems like there's a lot of interest and a lot of people excited by the class's potential. Medium is shaping up to be one of the best classes to come out of Occult Adventures, and Mark's done a fantastic job with it. It almost seems like a spellcaster where spells are replaced by (mostly passive) abilities. You prepare the abilities you want for the day and every now and then you can "spontaneously...
I went melee with mine at lvl 5 so I didn't notice anything I guess. I didn't think of what non martial mediums would look like at lower levels, although with 4/9 casting I guess you kind of have to go martial if you want to go on the offense at all. Especially since the spells known advantage doesn't kick in that much. Not to mention things like Hidden Truth's intermediate power lets you make skill checks better while Big Sky is way more appealing and leaning towards fighting.
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I went melee with mine at lvl 5 so I didn't notice anything I guess. I didn't think of what non martial mediums would look like at lower levels, although with 4/9 casting I guess you kind of have to go martial if you want to go on the offense at all. Especially since the spells known advantage doesn't kick in that much. Not to mention things like Hidden Truth's intermediate power lets you make skill checks better while Big Sky is way more appealing and leaning towards fighting.
The Strength spirit bonus does work with ranged attacks, although none of the spirit abilities from the Strength spirits we've seen so far do. When I playtested a ranged medium, it was fairly comparable to a ranged bard at levels 2 and 10, with significantly worse spellcasting, and with slightly worse skills. An archery-focused spirit would change that. Hitting level 11 also would--you'd then have three spirits active at once, not counting Channeled spirits, which seems to be when the class really starts taking off.
I went melee with mine at lvl 5 so I didn't notice anything I guess. I didn't think of what non martial mediums would look like at lower levels, although with 4/9 casting I guess you kind of have to go martial if you want to go on the offense at all. Especially since the spells known advantage doesn't kick in that much. Not to mention things like Hidden Truth's intermediate power lets you make skill checks better while Big Sky is way more appealing and leaning towards fighting.The Strength spirit bonus does work with ranged attacks, although none of the spirit abilities from the Strength spirits we've seen so far do. When I playtested a ranged medium, it was fairly comparable to a ranged bard at levels 2 and 10, with significantly worse spellcasting, and with slightly worse skills. An archery-focused spirit would change that. Hitting level 11 also would--you'd then have three spirits active at once, not counting Channeled spirits, which seems to be when the class really starts taking off.
But it still seems like having a non-martial medium is tricky.
Also seems like 6/9 casting would solve a lot of things.
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I went melee with mine at lvl 5 so I didn't notice anything I guess. I didn't think of what non martial mediums would look like at lower levels, although with 4/9 casting I guess you kind of have to go martial if you want to go on the offense at all. Especially since the spells known advantage doesn't kick in that much. Not to mention things like Hidden Truth's intermediate power lets you make skill checks better while Big Sky is way more appealing and leaning towards fighting.The Strength spirit bonus does work with ranged attacks, although none of the spirit abilities from the Strength spirits we've seen so far do. When I playtested a ranged medium, it was fairly comparable to a ranged bard at levels 2 and 10, with significantly worse spellcasting, and with slightly worse skills. An archery-focused spirit would change that. Hitting level 11 also would--you'd then have three spirits active at once, not counting Channeled spirits, which seems to be when the class really starts taking off.But it still seems like having a non-martial medium is tricky.
Also seems like 6/9 casting would solve a lot of things.
I absolutely agree with this.
As things are, I think the Medium is roughly below the level of Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers, and I think pushing it to 6th level spellcasting will put it into a much more versatile place where it actually can pull off what it should. The fact that it gets a SUPER restricted spell list based on what Spirits it is using means that it'll still be a good bit less powerful than most 6th level spellcasters, though.
I went melee with mine at lvl 5 so I didn't notice anything I guess. I didn't think of what non martial mediums would look like at lower levels, although with 4/9 casting I guess you kind of have to go martial if you want to go on the offense at all. Especially since the spells known advantage doesn't kick in that much. Not to mention things like Hidden Truth's intermediate power lets you make skill checks better while Big Sky is way more appealing and leaning towards fighting.The Strength spirit bonus does work with ranged attacks, although none of the spirit abilities from the Strength spirits we've seen so far do. When I playtested a ranged medium, it was fairly comparable to a ranged bard at levels 2 and 10, with significantly worse spellcasting, and with slightly worse skills. An archery-focused spirit would change that. Hitting level 11 also would--you'd then have three spirits active at once, not counting Channeled spirits, which seems to be when the class really starts taking off.But it still seems like having a non-martial medium is tricky.
Also seems like 6/9 casting would solve a lot of things.
I absolutely agree with this.
As things are, I think the Medium is roughly below the level of Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers, and I think pushing it to 6th level spellcasting will put it into a much more versatile place where it actually can pull off what it should. The fact that it gets a SUPER restricted spell list based on what Spirits it is using means that it'll still be a good bit less powerful than most 6th level spellcasters, though.
I think that the hope is that many stacking bonuses and powers can make it all worth the 4/9 casting. Specifically, things like the Owl stacking with a strength spirit leads to some pretty large attack and damage bonuses when the correct situation arrives. I will also note that the medium is more versatile than those four classes on a day-to-day basis.
You can always respec into a buffer with unicorn for instance. I don't think 6/9 casting is necessary, especially considering that casting intensive spirits can drop high level spells in lower level spell slots for the medium.
[Edit]
Though perhaps certain wis, int, and cha spirits could give additional spells of each spell level in one way or another. Then you could stack that genre of spirit to feel more like a full caster.
Having a non-martial Bloodrager is also tricky, but that's because Bloodragers don't get any other options. Medium does. You might have to work at it a little, but not nearly as hard as you would with the other 4/9 casters. It can easily be a competent melee fighter (the Rabbit Prince will be even better once it's able to pair with The Uprising, granting bonuses to attack, damage, and reflex saves, plus letting you add further damage on improvised weapons) and then on in-town days completely shift to be a powerful social character. Really, once they hit fourth level, things get pretty good.
Low-level, I agree on the casting business. Later levels, though, your power has grown a lot. If you want to be caster-focused, The Liar keeps pace with full caster DCs. At level 13, you can access quasi-capstones once or twice per day. Have The Twin as secondary, and you can make your tertiary your primary, your primary your secondary, and The Twin your tertiary after you've done that, allowing you a "fresh" spirit to access the capstone of. Your ability to murder-kill-gore-stab stuff is lower than Paladins/Rangers/Bloodragers, sure, but you get stuff like at-will teleportation as a move action or the ability to use limited wish 1/party member at no cost.
I don't think a BAB change or an expanded spell list is likely to happen at this point in the development.
Having a non-martial Bloodrager is also tricky, but that's because Bloodragers don't get any other options. Medium does. You might have to work at it a little, but not nearly as hard as you would with the other 4/9 casters. It can easily be a competent melee fighter (the Rabbit Prince will be even better once it's able to pair with The Uprising, granting bonuses to attack, damage, and reflex saves, plus letting you add further damage on improvised weapons) and then on in-town days completely shift to be a powerful social character. Really, once they hit fourth level, things get pretty good.
You know, I hadn't thought as deeply about it until just now, but a TWF improvised weapon Uprising/Rabbit Prince build is pretty darn entertaining. The summoned peasants are the funniest part.
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Since I've now been thinking about mediums, here's my amended feedback on the Beseech ability:
The ability exists in part because the medium is an exponential class. Its utility is roughly equal to
spirit bonus x spirits seanced x spirit abilities available + spirit bonus x channels per day
Each of these scales with level, so it could go from 2 at level 1 to 161 at level 20. The numbers obviously don't mean anything explicitly, but at low levels, utility is really low. At high levels, it has the potential to be really high. This is comparable to but more dramatic than the power curve for 9th-level casters; with full-casters the payoff happens earlier and isn't quite so pronounced at the end unless you have a bushelful of money for Wish spells.
The beseech ability follows a similar exponential pattern, particularly with the Strength and Con sub-abilities. Both range and power are level-dependent so you end up with another exponentially-growing ability. Comparing this "answer" to "answers" used in other classes, many of the other abilities scale linearly by making one of the parameters static and one of the parameters variable--the range of a cleric's channel, the bonus to hit from a paladin's Smite Evil, the bonuses from a barbarian's rage. Many of the abilities from sorcerer bloodlines, wizard arcane schools, arcanist exploits, etc. would probably also fall under this umbrella.
To fully address the problem of limited class options at low levels, you may want to fix one of the parameters for the strength and con sub-abilities. It'll increase the utility of the abilities at low levels and reduce it at high levels, but I'm not sure high level adventuring is going to be as much of a challenge with the class as it stands.
You know, I hadn't thought as deeply about it until just now, but a TWF improvised weapon Uprising/Rabbit Prince build is pretty darn entertaining. The summoned peasants are the funniest part.
I was really hoping for a corresponding alignment strength spirit that would synergize with Mr. Prince (since it's the best way to get use out of its first-level ability). Looking forward to seeing all the dual-power combos!
(Eh, that is to say, I was really happy when I realized that CN Strength would be The Uprising rather than The Bear. Synergy ahoy!)
Did I miss the Uprising spirit somehow ?
**Cool stuff**
** spoiler omitted **...
A couple questions regarding the Fiend and the Hunger of Innocents ability.
One; What happens when the Medium has a creature Swallowed Whole and they lose access to the Fiend spirit? Say there's a Remove Spirit spell or the Medium gets knocked unconscious till the next day.
Does the swallowed creature appear next to the Medium? Explode out of him?Two; What happens to the Medium when a Swallowed creature cuts its way out of the Mediums gut? Does the hole close due to "muscular action" as with other swallowing creatures?
IF so, does that wound stay once the Fiend spirit goes? Having a hole through your abdomen is a pretty serious wound. :)
1) Hmm...I think I'll go with "You regurgitate them in a horrific belch of brimstone and flame.
2) I think muscular action thing was in 3.5 and nowadays "If a swallowed creature cuts its way out, the swallowing creature cannot use swallow whole again until the damage is healed."
Curious about the Uprising spirit as well. I looked at Mark's first post and didn't see anything.
It hasn't been unlocked yet.
Hopefully one more playtest away by chance? My game is starting tomorrow, so that night/next morning there should be one more Medium playtest up :)
Hopefully one more playtest away by chance? My game is starting tomorrow, so that night/next morning there should be one more Medium playtest up :)
I roll randomly with each playtest posted to see if there's an unlock, so even I don't know. How exciting!
We will be starting another play-test in about an hour.
We will be starting with 8th level characters, and are doing a simple relay of different monster types to see what kind of creatures are and are not a challenge.
I'll post results either later tonight or in the morning ;)