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General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Paizo Employee Lead Designer

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This thread is for general discussion of the Kineticist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.

As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.

Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

OFFICAL UPDATES:

In the burn ability in the second paragraph in the first sentence, add the word "blast" before "wild talent".

Entangling Infusion should require kineticist level 6th.

Burn damage cannot be reduced or redirected.

OFFICIAL CLARIFICATIONS:

In the force ward defensive ability, when you end and reactivate your force ward, it does not refill the force ward with hit points. Those only refresh at a rate of 1 per minute.

Kinetic blade uses the same critical range and multiplier as a usual kinetic blast (which is 20/x2). Since it is used as part of a full attack or attack action, it doesn't have its own additional action cost, but you still can only use one instance of kinetic blade with your full attack (that is, you can't summon up 50 kinetic blades, but you can make a full attack with the one blade you did summon). The same is true for kinetic whip. You can use kinetic blade and whip with the charge action as well. Since these wild talents are part of another action, they do not provoke attacks of opportunity, as they are not a separate action.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Hi everyone, and thanks for playtesting the kineticist. I'm Mark, and I'm the kineticist design lead and your liaison for this playtest thread.

I will be updating this post occasionally as necessary with clarifications and other goodies, so do what you need to do to keep your eye on this post or just check it occasionally.

For starters, you're probably looking at getting more wild talents, so why not grab a feat for that which I would like you to playtest (don't mind the wording, just use it; and it's not PFS legal!):

Extra Wild Talent
Prerequisites: kineticist level 6th
Benefit: You gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 1st. At kineticist level 10th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 6th. At kineticist level 16th, you can instead choose to gain a wild talent that requires kineticist level 10th. In any case, you can't choose a wild talent if you don't meet its prerequisites.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, you must choose a different wild talent.


Do not mind the wording. Now those are honestly words I never thought I would have heard from you Mark.

Paizo Employee Designer

David Neilson wrote:
Do not mind the wording. Now those are honestly words I never thought I would have heard from you Mark.

Well it's not even playtest document official. I should really put that in the medium thread too.


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Sweet we can now make characters very similar to Avatar the last airbender.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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Just started reading, and had the visceral reaction that the term infusion isn't the right one for wild talents that alter the blast. Infusions are already a game term for alchemists using a discovery to allow their extracts to be used by others. If there's an option to not have overlapping game terms that have completely different meanings, that will lead to less confusion in game as well as for new players figuring out the rules.

Silver Crusade

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Gosh, there's a lot in this document to absorb. I probably won't have a chance to get into it much for a while. Started reading the Kineticist before realized that and put it away. But before I left, I noticed:

(1) The Kineticist looks cool! I'm excited to play with it.

... and a couple small things:

(2) Typo. Telekinetic Blast (5): “The object must weight 5 lbs. per kineticist level you possess or less.”

(3) Question. Telekinetic Blast (5): “Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals the telekineticit’s blast damage.” — What about special materials: Does a thrown adamantine object overcome hardness as an attack with an adamantine weapon? Does a thrown cold iron weapon overcome DR/cold iron?

That's it for now. I'll be watching the thread and pitch in if/when I get around to going through the document in more detail.

:-)

Contributor

For telekinetic blast (Aether Simple Blast), does hardness apply to the object that you're throwing?

The wording on the simple blasts is a bit confusing. The kinetic blast ability states that you can use your blasts "at will" and none of the blasts list an action, they simple state that they are used "as an attack." To me, it seems obvious that these blasts are supposed to be treated as weapon-like attacks (similar to rays) and are therefore used during the attack action (standard action) or full attack action (full round action). The problem is that the rules never state this. This needs to be clarified in the final document.

Looking at the infusions next, but I immediately noticed that the chilling infusion wild talent is missing all of its bolding. Not a balance issue per say, but something you might want to fix if there ends up being a round 2 document.

Paizo Employee Designer

Alexander Augunas wrote:

For telekinetic blast (Aether Simple Blast), does hardness apply to the object that you're throwing?

The wording on the simple blasts is a bit confusing. The kinetic blast ability states that you can use your blasts "at will" and none of the blasts list an action, they simple state that they are used "as an attack." To me, it seems obvious that these blasts are supposed to be treated as weapon-like attacks (similar to rays) and are therefore used during the attack action (standard action) or full attack action (full round action). The problem is that the rules never state this. This needs to be clarified in the final document.

Looking at the infusions next, but I immediately noticed that the chilling infusion wild talent is missing all of its bolding. Not a balance issue per say, but something you might want to fix if there ends up being a round 2 document.

The action is in the class description. Hardness applies.

@Joe, they shouldn't add the special qualities of the material, for all the same reasons. If you want weird metals, go earth and get the rare metal infusion!


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My first thought when reading this class: geokinesis would sound better than terrakinesis...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

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I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Liberty's Edge

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I know this is probably sitting right out in the open and I cannot find it, but how does one pick up a 2nd elemental blast to do composite blasts like the magma blast where it has the prerequisite of fire and earth blast?


The Terrakineticist sounds really good. Blast deals B/P/S, can entangle, can bypass metal DR (great for the PFS robots), and the defensive ability gives you DR like you're an Invulnerable Rager, can pick up Tremorsense and Earth Glide... I know what my next PFS character is going to be.

Paizo Employee Designer

JoelF847 wrote:

I'm confused by the burn entry for wild talents. The burn ability says "Some of her wild talents offer her the option to accept burn in exchange for a greater effect", but all of the wild talents I've read so far list a burn amount, but don't describe a greater effect if you accept burn.

Is it intended that you have to accept burn to use the wild talent at all, and the description of the wild talent is the greater effect? Or is burn supposed to enhance the wild talent, similar to augmenting a mythic spell?

Consider the defense talents like flesh of stone.

Contributor

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The cloud and cyclone infusions specifically call out "blizzards" and "sandstorms" as a possible manifestation of the blast, but the infusion is air-only. Why can't water, earth, or even fire take this infusion? (After all incendiary cloud IS a fire spell.)

What is the action required to use the engulfing winds wild talent?

Heh. Jagged Flesh is Spike, from X-Men Evolution.

There are a couple of wild talents that state that they function like other wild talents, but they don't ever mention that those referenced abilities are wild talents. For example, self telekinesis functions like flame jet, but never mentions that flame jet is a wild talent.

Huh. Kinetic Healer is interesting. You heal a channel energy's worth of lethal damage, but either you or your target take a point of burn damage. (Which translates to 1 point of nonlethal damage per Hit Die.) Interesting.

So my final thought: huh. Well, this is very clearly the Jean Gray / Avatar / Jedi class. I really like it for that. The abilities themselves are interesting: this is a cool take on a spell-less caster class. That said, the wild talents section is a bit overwhelming, mostly because the formatting is all very similar. I like that they're not all mixed together, but I'm wondering how easy this class will be to play at a table.

All that said, the fact that this is a Constitution-based caster class is REALLY cool, especially considering that you're going to burn your own hit points away to use its abilities. Very nicely done, Mark!

Paizo Employee Designer

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Meelo wrote:
I know this is probably sitting right out in the open and I cannot find it, but how does one pick up a 2nd elemental blast to do composite blasts like the magma blast where it has the prerequisite of fire and earth blast?

Meelo, buddy, what's your father Tenzin going to think if you try to go magma bending?

The wild talent for it is in its own section just before the composites

Paizo Employee Designer

Alexander Augunas wrote:

The cloud and cyclone infusions specifically call out "blizzards" and "sandstorms" as a possible manifestation of the blast, but the infusion is air-only. Why can't water, earth, or even fire take this infusion? (After all incendiary cloud IS a fire spell.)

What is the action required to use the engulfing winds wild talent?

Note that you'll need to have access to air in order to make any of those other storms, though. It's one of the two components.

Engulfing winds is the default for Sp, a standard action.


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While we're still early, I'm with Drejk on Geokinesis. It's also more etymologically accurate, since all of the other parts of the disciplines (kinesis, pyro-, aero-, hydro-, and tele-) are from Greek while Terra is from Latin, Geo being the greek form.

Paizo Employee Designer

Arachnofiend wrote:
The Terrakineticist sounds really good. Blast deals B/P/S, can entangle, can bypass metal DR (great for the PFS robots), and the defensive ability gives you DR like you're an Invulnerable Rager, can pick up Tremorsense and Earth Glide... I know what my next PFS character is going to be.

Terrakineticists have great defense and a fairly versatile clobbering offense, but they don't offer a good way to hit touch AC and their number of different wild talent choices is low (they're calcified and inflexible that way, like the earth itself). It sounds like that kind of mindset really fits the playstyle for your PFS character. Be sure to let us know how it goes!


The Golux wrote:
While we're still early, I'm with Drejk on Geokinesis. It's also more etymologically accurate, since all of the other parts of the disciplines (kinesis, pyro-, aero-, hydro-, and tele-) are from Greek while Terra is from Latin, Geo being the greek form.

I had a vague feeling like that when I thought about the name but decided to check it later, maybe. Huh. Maybe I do remember a bit from my Ancient Greek lessons after all? Nah, it must have been a hunch.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Yeah, there was actually a source listing all the kineses on some occult site, and I was given the names from that. When I check now, it's saying that terrakinesis is more about nature stuff anyway and geokinesis is used for earth movement more often. We will certainly consider going geo. After all, it's all Greek to me!


The 1d6+1 plus Con modifier as a base damage irritates me for no rational reason. I think I would prefer 1d6 or 1d8 plus Con modifier as a base damage. And adding half Con modifier to ranged touch blasts.


I don't like burn inflicting nonlethal damage. It means that undead kineticists can't do a thing.

You won't tell me that you didn't wanted to 10th level telekineticist that died and returned as ghost?!

Paizo Employee Designer

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Drejk wrote:

I don't like burn inflicting nonlethal damage. It means that undead kineticists can't do a thing.

You won't tell me that you didn't wanted to 10th level telekineticist that died and returned as ghost?!

Maybe the ones that have full access to their most powerful abilities need to come back as a special new kind of thing. Like the "force ghosts" in Star Wars? ^_~

Don't worry, we've thought of that.


Wild talent gained at 7th and 15th levels seem out of place, not following one talent every two levels as if you put them as a placeholder because you hadn't idea for other abilities to fill those levels...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, there was actually a source listing all the kineses on some occult site, and I was given the names from that. When I check now, it's saying that terrakinesis is more about nature stuff anyway and geokinesis is used for earth movement more often. We will certainly consider going geo. After all, it's all Greek to me!

There's also the issue that "terrakinesis" and "telekinesis" sound somewhat similar when spoken aloud; the former almost sounds like a slurred version of the latter, and could lead to confusion at the table. Add my vote to "geo".


Quote:

If she has both hands free, as a move action, a kineticist

can visibly gather energy or elemental matter around her,
allowing her to reduce the total burn cost of a wild talent
used in the same round by 1 point (to a minimum of 0
points). If she takes any damage while gathering power
and before the kinetic blast that releases it, she must make
a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt + effective
spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild
surge that deals her 1 point of burn.

Does this move action option work for ALL wild talents or just blasts? It mentions a "kinetic blast that releases it" but otherwise seems to work for all wild talents, so I'm not sure how to rule this.

Paizo Employee Designer

Drejk wrote:
Wild talent gained at 7th and 15th levels seem out of place, not following one talent every two levels as if you put them as a placeholder because you hadn't idea for other abilities to fill those levels...

Nope. You will note that you gain access to a very special wild talent at those levels (expanded element). It was initially a class feature gained at those levels, but internal review indicated that some people would rather not have to choose it (I personally would never play a kineticist without it). So it became a wild talent. In order to not give you fewer wild talents, you get them at those levels. And that's how it happened!

Paizo Employee Designer

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DrakeRoberts wrote:
Quote:

If she has both hands free, as a move action, a kineticist

can visibly gather energy or elemental matter around her,
allowing her to reduce the total burn cost of a wild talent
used in the same round by 1 point (to a minimum of 0
points). If she takes any damage while gathering power
and before the kinetic blast that releases it, she must make
a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt + effective
spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild
surge that deals her 1 point of burn.
Does this move action option work for ALL wild talents or just blasts? It mentions a "kinetic blast that releases it" but otherwise seems to work for all wild talents, so I'm not sure how to rule this.

It should be only blasts and infusions (which affect blasts). But certainly not like a defense or something like that. Dear Shelyn that would be bad!

EDIT: Y'know what. My playtest-ready document I turned over right here says "blast wild talent" and not "wild talent" there. Heads will roll!

not really on the heads, but I totally wrote it to tell you it needed to be a blast


It seems that Entangling Infusion should have a "kineticist level 6th" prerequisite.

Paizo Employee Designer

DrakeRoberts wrote:
It seems that Entangling Infusion should have a "kineticist level 6th" prerequisite.

Correct.


Mark Seifter wrote:


It should be only blasts and infusions (which affect blasts). But certainly not like a defense or something like that. Dear Shelyn that would be bad!

Healing would be worse :)


Just a simple reading, but the Kinetiscist seems like everything I loved about the Warlock and Words of Power, but better. I'm happy so far :)


Any chance that the extra talent feat will make it into a playtest document in the next month to make it PFS legal?


The burn as is seems to me to suffers from a greater problem... Because each point of burn inflicts one point nonlethal damage per level that cannot be healed until the next day, it means that average kineticist cannot use more burn per day than 4.5+Con modifier. Which at higher levels is about two wild talents/metakinesis use, three or four with Constitution increasing effects. 20th level character focused on Constitution can reasonably have ability score of 36, which gives +13 modifier - about 17-18 burn points per day. Seems ok, allowing to use the max boosted powers three times per day. Assuming you don't do anything else... And you don't mind fainting ever other round when an opponent stabs you for 1d6 damage dropping you current hit points below nonlethal damage already suffered...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Minor complaint. "Wild Talent" The phrase has a lot of baggage from 3.5. I can't think of something to replace it.

I'd almost rather it was "Kinetic Talent"

Paizo Employee Designer

DrakeRoberts, the missing word has been added as an official update. Thank you very much!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Wild talent gained at 7th and 15th levels seem out of place, not following one talent every two levels as if you put them as a placeholder because you hadn't idea for other abilities to fill those levels...
Nope. You will note that you gain access to a very special wild talent at those levels (expanded element). It was initially a class feature gained at those levels, but internal review indicated that some people would rather not have to choose it (I personally would never play a kineticist without it). So it became a wild talent. In order to not give you fewer wild talents, you get them at those levels. And that's how it happened!

Ah, that explains it... Still grates on my pattern-sense.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

After reading the Kineticist I actually went looking at the bottom of the pfd for the missing Feat section for an Extra Wild Talent feat but sadly all I found were psionic spells... Sadly the feat here isn't pfs legal but that makes no difference, wouldn't be able to use the feat with the level requirement (Usually GM the higher tier instead of playing them).

Now I do have a question, how does the burn limit a Kineticist can accept work when used with wild talents that allow another to accept the burn instead, like Kinetic Heal? Does the target have their own burn limit or does it count against my own? I'm guessing it counts against my own, but if I have both hands free I can pretty much use a move action + standard action to heal for free? I guess that also another area in need of clarity as one part says "reduces burn cost of a wild talent" while another part says "kinetic blast." Oh please forgive me if I sound confusing, I have something new in my hands and I keep jumping around and see half of something then come back and see the other half.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Drejk wrote:
The burn as is seems to me to suffers from a greater problem... Because each point of burn inflicts one point nonlethal damage per level that cannot be healed until the next day, it means that average kineticist cannot use more burn per day than 4.5+Con modifier. Which at higher levels is about two wild talents/metakinesis use, three or four with Constitution increasing effects. 20th level character focused on Constitution can reasonably have ability score of 36, which gives +13 modifier - about 17-18 burn points per day. Seems ok, allowing to use the max boosted powers three times per day. Assuming you don't do anything else... And you don't mind fainting ever other round when an opponent stabs you for 1d6 damage dropping you current hit points below nonlethal damage already suffered...

Those limitations are fully intentional. The kineticist is a powerful and capable character even if she rarely spends burn (I've been playtesting in a game with a 5th level hydrokineticist who generally only spends burn to upgrade shroud of water). Or at least, she should be. I want you to playtest her out, or even theorycraft. How does she do when she's in steady state and doing the most she can without spending burn? What about when she is spending her cap? I have some spreadsheets, but I'd love to see yours too! (and especially playtest data)

Paizo Employee Designer

Kadasbrass Loreweaver wrote:

After reading the Kineticist I actually went looking at the bottom of the pfd for the missing Feat section for an Extra Wild Talent feat but sadly all I found were psionic spells... Sadly the feat here isn't pfs legal but that makes no difference, wouldn't be able to use the feat with the level requirement (Usually GM the higher tier instead of playing them).

Now I do have a question, how does the burn limit a Kineticist can accept work when used with wild talents that allow another to accept the burn instead, like Kinetic Heal? Does the target have their own burn limit or does it count against my own? I'm guessing it counts against my own, but if I have both hands free I can pretty much use a move action + standard action to heal for free? I guess that also another area in need of clarity as one part says "reduces burn cost of a wild talent" while another part says "kinetic blast." Oh please forgive me if I sound confusing, I have something new in my hands and I keep jumping around and see half of something then come back and see the other half.

It should say blast. It did say blast in the document I sent. Somehow it is now missing (edited away to copyfit, I don't know?) but Jason's original post now indicates that added "blast" an an official update. With much thanks to DrakeRoberts for catching it so fast.


Separating Extended Range and Extreme Range talents is needless, IMO. There should be just one wild talent extending range with range extension scaling with number of burn points dedicated to it.

Telekinetic blast and Foe Thrower infusion should be allowed to throw object/foe against another object/hard surface. As written they can only target creatures.

Kinetic blade as written is useless until 13th level - you need to use standard action to activate you kinetic blast and the weapon vanishes at the end of the turn leaving you without attack or full attack action to be used. I think that the intent was that you activate it as an initial part of attack/full attack action but the wording is dubious at best - i.e. it does not explicitly overrides the kinetic blast activation action.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Whoops I should have looked above, forgive me Mark for I have sinned in a hurry.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really like this one the only thing is I would have liked the Int mod instead of con mod as the damage bonus(and save DCs). Though I don't mind the burn points being con based.

Minor gripe is the lack of skill points/class skills.

Paizo Employee Designer

Drejk wrote:

Separating Extended Range and Extreme Range talents is needless, IMO. There should be just one wild talent extending range with range extension scaling with number of burn points dedicated to it.

Telekinetic blast and Foe Thrower infusion should be allowed to throw object/foe against another object/hard surface. As written they can only target creatures.

Kinetic blade as written is useless until 13th level - you need to use standard action to activate you kinetic blast and the weapon vanishes at the end of the turn leaving you without attack or full attack action to be used. I think that the intent was that you activate it as an initial part of attack/full attack action but the wording is dubious at best - i.e. it does not explicitly overrides the kinetic blast activation action.

Kinetic blade and fist should both say you activate them as part of an attack or full attack action. Does it say something else now? I will investigate.


Mark Seifter wrote:
DrakeRoberts, the missing word has been added as an official update. Thank you very much!

You're very welcome. It took me a while to read this through, but I'm really excited about it.

A note to point out to the "burn is harsh" people (and it may be, we'll need to see), are the infusion specializations, and of course the move action blast-charging. That means for your favorite form/substance blast at level 5 you can ignore up to 2 burn. Since the Level 4 (read minimum level 6 kineticist) infusions (need to change that word!) generally cost 2 burn, you can add one for free. By level 16 (when you can get the level 9 infusions), you have had 4 specializations.


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Dragon78 wrote:

I really like this one the only thing is I would have liked the Int mod instead of con mod as the damage bonus(and save DCs). Though I don't mind the burn points being con based.

Minor gripe is the lack of skill points/class skills.

Sorta need Con to be the 'casting' stat, else the burn would wipe you out WAY too fast.

Paizo Employee Designer

DrakeRoberts wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
DrakeRoberts, the missing word has been added as an official update. Thank you very much!

You're very welcome. It took me a while to read this through, but I'm really excited about it.

A note to point out to the "burn is harsh" people (and it may be, we'll need to see), are the infusion specializations, and of course the move action blast-charging. That means for your favorite form/substance blast at level 5 you can ignore up to 2 burn. Since the Level 4 (read minimum level 6 kineticist) infusions (need to change that word!) generally cost 2 burn, you can add one for free. By level 16 (when you can get the level 9 infusions), you have had 4 specializations.

Yes. I carefully worked on that math to make sure you can always be doing something amazing and cool without spending burn (and you can do something big, but it'll cost ya). And very few of the general talents cost burn except for extra effects, like extending them. Here's a neat trick from our playtest hydrokineticist: Consider using slick a lot and only paying the burn when it sticks. Like when you get a foe to drop an important weapon or trip several enemies successfully.


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I just noticed that the Kineticist and Psychic are the only two classes with 2 skill points per level. Every other class has 4-6 skill points per level.

The Psychic is an "Int based caster" for both DCs and spells known, so they have a huge reason to invest into int.

Based on my current understanding of the class it's not some sort of super combat powerhouse, nor does it have High level spells that invalidate skills. What's the reasoning for severely lowering the ability for the Kineticist to interact with the world through skills?

At 4 skill points per level the Kineticist would be as skilled as a Monk, which seems thematically appropriate. Also it would make them as skilled as a Barbarian, Brawler, and Druid.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well considering your using your mind to manipulate forces not your muscles/bulk/guts/immune system then intelligence makes more sense for damage and DCs. Also it would help the classes's lack of skill points.

Also a lot races that are said to be good with psychic powers have no con bonus or even con penalties.

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