General Discussion: Kineticist


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Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

How can you like the monk...? They are so bad!


Verzen wrote:
How can you like the monk...? They are so bad!

They used to be. archetypes and style feats have fixed them for the most part. they also changed magic weapon so that it affects monks unarmed strikes Dipping in them is also a good way to create an unstoppable super beast.

even a straight monk can be decent if you don't take the core version. needless to say, I will be closely examining the unchained monk and will likely be replacing kinetisist in place of magus for my explosion punch monks


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
brightshadow360 wrote:
Verzen wrote:
How can you like the monk...? They are so bad!

They used to be. archetypes and style feats have fixed them for the most part. they also changed magic weapon so that it affects monks unarmed strikes Dipping in them is also a good way to create an unstoppable super beast.

even a straight monk can be decent if you don't take the core version. needless to say, I will be closely examining the unchained monk and will likely be replacing kinetisist in place of magus for my explosion punch monks

Plus the Unchained Monk may become 10 times better then vanilla monk.

Anyways back on the topic, I am excited for this class in just the bad-ass potential. High Con and unlimited blasting potential.

Archer: "Your dead!" *releases arrow, hits and deals 10 damage*
Kineticist:*looks at arrow in chest, pulls it out, smirks at archer* "My Turn." *Kinetically throws arrow back, deals 20 damage and kills archer*

If there is any class I could want to play in real life it's this one.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I kinda want to get heavy armor proficiency and rock 23 AC as a water based kineticist


came up with a few good ideas for a darkness element kinetisist (shadow plane, not negative energy)wild talents .

1. darksight (lvl one gain): The kinetisist gains darkvision even in magical darkness at lvl 1. unlike races with darkvision, he does not suffer penalties in bright light.

2. peace of the shadows (utility): the kinetisist feels peaceful and refreshed in darknes more than normal. He only requires half the amount of sleep.

3. shadow sphere defense talent: The kinetisist is covered in a 10ft sphere of darkness. The light level is always 1 step lower in the sphere. In bright light, the sphere is normal light and provides no benefit.

In normal light the sphere is low light. when the sphere is low light creatures in the sphere gain a 20% miss chance from projectiles and creatures who enter his sphere take a -2 on the first turn in the sphere. This penalty is reduced by 1 for each round spent in the sphere. creatures leaving the sphere gain the penalty in reverse (a creature who spent 2 rounds in the sphere gets a -2 when exiting it that goes away by 1 point each round). creatures with low light vision ignore both of these penalties. The sphere provides a 2 point bonus on stealth checks to hide in shadows.

In low light, the sphere is considered natural darkness. creatures in the sphere gain a 50% miss from projectiles and creatures have a 20% miss chance from creatures who enter the sphere. creatures with darkvision are immune to these penalties. The bonus to stealth increases to +4.

In darkness, the sphere is treated as magical darkness. he is treated as though having total concealment for the purposes of ranged and melee attacks. creatures with darkvision except are NOT immune. the stealth bonus is +6

you can spend a points of burn to increase the radius by 5 ft per point spent.

4. enduring darkness (utility): the shadow sphere is considered low light in brightly lit enviroments. however, you do not gain stealth bonuses

5. light deepens shadow (utility). prerequisite: enduring darkness. you come to understand that light and darkness are two sides of the same coin. in bright light you treat your shadow sphere as darkness rather than low light. you still do not gain stelth bonuses in bright light.

6. light in the darkness (utility): you may designate a number of creatures up to your CON mod to either gain you darksight ability while in the sphere, or be outlined in fairyfire as the spell.

7. dark shroud (substance): your blast inflicts the effects of your dark sphere on creatures it hits. a creature hit by a dark shroud becomes coated in a thin layer of darkness that effects their vision. The creature is still visible to others but appears as though it were a walking shadow. the creature DOES gain a bonus to stealth to hide in shadows but otherwise is treated as though it were in your sphere. the effect lasts a number of rounds equal to your con mod. you can spend an additional point of burn to increase the effect time to 1 min/con mod. you can also apply the effects of the "light in the darkness" wild talent if you have it (so that you may use dark shroud on your allies to grant them stealth bonuses)

8. Dark pond (form): you can make a 10ft circle act as difficult terrain for a number of rounds equal to your CON mod. the circle is covered in a puddle of darkness that grabs and pulls at creatures feet. shadow kinetisists are immune to this effect. you can increase the area by 5 ft/point of burn

9. dark tindrals (form):prerequisite: dark pond. This talent acts as the spell "black tentacles" except the tentacles are coils of grabbing darkness rather than literal tentacles.

10. dark void (form): prerequisite: dark pond. you create a miniature black hole. the hole is not large enough to cause harm, but the gravity from it affects all creatures in a 25ft radius. moving away from the hole is treated as though moving through difficult terrain. normal abilities that allow one to ignore difficult terrain do not function against this including flying. every turn, all creatures in the area of effect automatically move 5 ft closer to the center of the circle unless they spend a move action to brace themselves (this moment occurs at the beginning of your turn). this forced moment provokes attacks of opportunity.

You may spend a point of burn to double the power of the hole. the area becomes 50ft. beyond 25 ft, creatures are affected normally. Within 25 ft, creatures move 10ft towards the center and moving away is even more difficult (a 5 ft square is considered 15 ft)

11. shadow grip (utility): you can call forth shadows at you hands and feet as an immediate action. you gain a bonus on CMD equal to your CON mod vs bull rush maneuvers and other affects that would forcefully move you. you also are treated as though under the effects of the spell "spider climb". finally, you are immune to the effects of the dark void and reverse gravity wild talents.

12. shadow walk (substance): as the spell

13. Reverse Gravity (substance): you create a powerful miniture black hole and shoot it into the air within your blast range. the hole occupies a 5ft square in the air, affects a 15ft radius sphere around it and lasts a number of rounds equal to your CON mod. Any creature in the radius area must make a reflex save or be pulled into the air and begin to orbit the hole.

As for blast talents, it could go various ways. maybe they use force blasts like the telekenetisist. maybe solid shadow for bludgeoning. negative energy? (a bit of a stretch but the shadow plane does border the negative energy plane. maybe cold damage?

all in all, writing this, this turned out to be a very battlefield control/ hinder and penalize enemies setup.


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Will there be a charisma using archetype? While I welcome a con based "caster" when I envision a telekinetic character I envision "extreme force of personality".


Viluki wrote:
Will there be a charisma using archetype? While I welcome a con based "caster" when I envision a telekinetic character I envision "extreme force of personality".

You mean like how the people in any of the Carrie movies are so charismatic and popular? Or the dude from Chronicle? Or Push?


Actually Carrie was getting some self esteem before she was pushed over the deep end;) I have always thought the benders were cha based because the stronger benders had strong personalities. Also I have seen plenty of Kineticist in movies/comics who were intelligent or gained it when they got there powers. But anyway I would love to see archetypes for Cha based and Int based Kineticist.

Designer

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I will only say this--if there is an archetype involving Charisma, it will be sure to stack with any possible blood kineticist archetype that some of you have been speculating might exist...after all, how else can you play a vampire with both of those archetypes?


Verzen wrote:
I kinda want to get heavy armor proficiency and rock 23 AC as a water based kineticist

At level 6, my Water kineticist is rocking 27 AC, and I'm in light armor (well, water armor, now, but I would be in light if I wasn't using water armor). When you're a dex based class, why would you want heavy armor?


Dragon78 wrote:
Actually Carrie was getting some self esteem before she was pushed over the deep end;) I have always thought the benders were cha based because the stronger benders had strong personalities. Also I have seen plenty of Kineticist in movies/comics who were intelligent or gained it when they got there powers. But anyway I would love to see archetypes for Cha based and Int based Kineticist.

Cha is about force of personality, not popularity. in other words, it's all about you emotions and letting them flow out. Note that carrie and the girl from firestarter were at their most powerful when upset. a CHA based kinetisist would be very wild and barely in control.

As for avatar benders, that was DEFINITLY WIZ based. each element involved the avatar learning the philosophies of said element (earth waits and listens and is unmoving, wind is flighty and free, water ebbes and flows, fire is all about energy). there is even that episode with the dragons towards the end that involves Zuko learning that using rage is the improper way to bend. whats more, we see WIS used in star wars as well (though one could argue that jedi use WIS and sith use CHA)

Finally we have INT. we see INT used more with aliens and mutants messing with and calculating physics.

There are arguments for all three, but I do think we can agree that it should be based in one of those rather than DEX


brightshadow360 wrote:
There are arguments for all three, but I do think we can agree that it should be based in one of those rather than DEX

No, I don't.


Tels wrote:
brightshadow360 wrote:
There are arguments for all three, but I do think we can agree that it should be based in one of those rather than DEX
No, I don't.

Nope.


Yeah, those "might" fit an archetype but I don't think they fit those ability scores with the classes default flavour. I mean, this is a class where using some of their abilities can knock them out from the physical strain, it's powers are very physical. Also, I like the idea of finally having a magic character without full control on their powers without every NPC in the game loving them from the high Cha.

Mark Seifter wrote:
I will only say this--if there is an archetype involving Charisma, it will be sure to stack with any possible blood kineticist archetype that some of you have been speculating might exist...after all, how else can you play a vampire with both of those archetypes?

Cool to hear.


Milo v3 wrote:
Also, I like the idea of finally having a magic character without full control on their powers without every NPC in the game loving them from the high Cha.

I agree, it's very hard to play someone with uncontrolled magical power of some sort, because those people, up until now, also come part-and-parcel with either exemplary intelligence, unparalleled wisdom, or panty-dropping good looks/personalities.

Although, I guess, it would be kind of hilarious to be so completely and utterly awesome (Cha) that you knock your ownself out with how amazing you are. In that case, I would totally want to dip Oracle (Cha to AC/saves) and Bard (Cha to certain skills) and then play Amazo the Amazing Amazement.

"All right, listen, I didn't want to have to do this, but you leave me no choice; here comes the 'Smolder'"

Be all, running around with Michael Jackson moves, crotch thrusting out Pyrokinetic Blasts, spinning around screaming "Oh" and telekinetically hurling boulders at things. All through the sheer power of how awesome you are.


Milo v3 wrote:

Yeah, those "might" fit an archetype but I don't think they fit those ability scores with the classes default flavor. I mean, this is a class where using some of their abilities can knock them out from the physical strain, it's powers are very physical. Also, I like the idea of finally having a magic character without full control on their powers without every NPC in the game loving them from the high Cha.

It's not the source that's the problem. CON needs to stay the source of their power. It's the control that's the issue. an overflowing font of power shouldn't be controlled by how good you can aim. you should have to keep it mentally in check either by calculating and regulating the flow (INT), willing and directly controlling the flow (WIS), or by straight up telling your element "NOPE" when it constantly tries to burst out of your pores (CHA)

I definitely agree that CHA shouldn't be the go-to stat due to us already having the sorcerer to fill that role. INT is in a similar boat due to the magus. WIS however is only for monks and divine casters. Neither of those have a good blaster (though I have heard horror stories about optimized battle clerics and they did TRY to make the monk a little more blasty) also the idea of willing things to move around appeals to me hence my vote for WIS

just plain DEX though doesn't jive with the idea of controlling and holding things back

On an unrelated note, if we get a spirit detective archetype, he needs a ghostbusters proton pack grapple beam. we also need a ghost containing box. actually, I have an interesting idea. ghosts defeated and stuffed in a ghost containment box can be brought to a church. the ghost is then ritualistically purified of its malevolence. the ghost, having had most of it's original self eaten away by negative energy must stay on the material plain for a while or go recover in the ethereal plane. a good way to get ghost familiars and cohorts (Got to catch them all?)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Personally, I think Dexterity does have a lot to do with control, since it tends to involve anything you do with your body that requires precision or care...Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and so on and so forth. It's also timing to an extent (since it controls Initiative). Constitution governing the power of your blast means that it's how much you can safely allow to travel through your body (or unsafely with burn), but to actually make sure it hits, I think Dexterity makes perfect sense.

I could see archetypes for some of the others, perhaps, but honestly, I feel they're too restrictive for the kineticist. What if I don't want to have a wise kineticist who uses common sense? What if I want a fiery, hot-blooded pyrokineticist, or a calculating aerokineticist who overlooks the obvious? If accuracy is governed by Wisdom, I can't do that without making my character less effective. Conversely, with Dexterity and Constitution, being quick and tough has very little to do with my personality, and are honestly good choices for most adventurers. Furthermore, I can also design a character to run more off of Strength if I don't like the concept of Dexterity for a more martial concept via kinetic blade/whip/fist, or even reduce Constitution and focus on things that have DCs based off of Dexterity and worry more about hitting than doing maximum damage.

Of course, that's just my opinion...


brightshadow360 wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:

Yeah, those "might" fit an archetype but I don't think they fit those ability scores with the classes default flavor. I mean, this is a class where using some of their abilities can knock them out from the physical strain, it's powers are very physical. Also, I like the idea of finally having a magic character without full control on their powers without every NPC in the game loving them from the high Cha.

It's not the source that's the problem. CON needs to stay the source of their power. It's the control that's the issue. an overflowing font of power shouldn't be controlled by how good you can aim. you should have to keep it mentally in check either by calculating and regulating the flow (INT), willing and directly controlling the flow (WIS), or by straight up telling your element "NOPE" when it constantly tries to burst out of your pores (CHA)

I definitely agree that CHA shouldn't be the go-to stat due to us already having the sorcerer to fill that role. INT is in a similar boat due to the magus. WIS however is only for monks and divine casters. Neither of those have a good blaster (though I have heard horror stories about optimized battle clerics and they did TRY to make the monk a little more blasty) also the idea of willing things to move around appeals to me hence my vote for WIS

just plain DEX though doesn't jive with the idea of controlling and holding things back

On an unrelated note, if we get a spirit detective archetype, he needs a ghostbusters proton pack grapple beam. we also need a ghost containing box. actually, I have an interesting idea. ghosts defeated and stuffed in a ghost containment box can be brought to a church. the ghost is then ritualistically purified of its malevolence. the ghost, having had most of it's original self eaten away by negative energy must stay on the material plain for a while or go recover in the ethereal plane. a good way to get ghost familiars and cohorts (Got to catch them all?)

Again, no, mental stats *Do Not* govern how one directs their attacks. There are limited cases of this happening in the game, but it's always limited in used.

Dexterity is all about speed and precision. It governs how you aim a bow, a gun, a crossbow, a scorching ray. It is the ability score that allows you to use complicated fighting styles, like two weapon fighting. It's the stat that allows you to react and move out of the way of things.

Dexterity is all about controlling how your body moves and directs itself. Strength is all about moving your body and the force it generates. Constitution is all about how much your body can stand.

With Kineticists channeling power through their body, the body is the governing source. Hence, the energy the expel, comes from the body and is guided by the body. Therefore, it is dexterity that aims it.

Even magical spells, creations of the mind, are directed, controlled and aimed using the body. Spells are, like the kineticist's blasts, magical bullets. The caster loads their gun each day and then fires them when he needs to. Once the spell leaves a caster's body, it no longer is under his control. You fire a ray by pointing a finger; where your finger points, is where your ray goes.

The same is true for Kinetic blasts. It is not a mental action and requires a hand to use it.

Kineticist Playtest wrote:
At 1st level, a kineticist chooses one of her element’s simple blast wild talents. The kineticist can unleash her kinetic blast at a range of 30 feet at will. A kinetic blast requires at least one hand free to aim the blast. All damage from a kinetic blast is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

This is not a mental action. It is not calculated, or guided, or Awesomed! into being. It is aimed using the hand, the hand, which is part of the body.

When the physical body aims something, dexterity is what is being used.

This is an underlying governing rule in how the d20 system works. Changing how this system works should not be done willy-nilly. When changed, it needs to be limited. Only very few options that allow this even exist in the game. Off the top of my head, only a Zen Archer and a Sensei Monk with Cleric, Oracle, Paladin or Warpriest levels with the Crusader's Flurry feat have this option in the Pathfinde RPG, though Paizo did print the Guided property in during 3.5. Even still, the Zen Archer and Sensei have their options extremely limited in what they can use Wisdom to hit with.


Luthorne wrote:

Personally, I think Dexterity does have a lot to do with control, since it tends to involve anything you do with your body that requires precision or care...Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, and so on and so forth. It's also timing to an extent (since it controls Initiative). Constitution governing the power of your blast means that it's how much you can safely allow to travel through your body (or unsafely with burn), but to actually make sure it hits, I think Dexterity makes perfect sense.

I could see archetypes for some of the others, perhaps, but honestly, I feel they're too restrictive for the kineticist. What if I don't want to have a wise kineticist who uses common sense? What if I want a fiery, hot-blooded pyrokineticist, or a calculating aerokineticist who overlooks the obvious? If accuracy is governed by Wisdom, I can't do that without making my character less effective. Conversely, with Dexterity and Constitution, being quick and tough has very little to do with my personality, and are honestly good choices for most adventurers. Furthermore, I can also design a character to run more off of Strength if I don't like the concept of Dexterity for a more martial concept via kinetic blade/whip/fist, or even reduce Constitution and focus on things that have DCs based off of Dexterity and worry more about hitting than doing maximum damage.

Of course, that's just my opinion...

that's the problem. It's not that the mental stats don't make sense. it's that they ALL make sense. kinetisists come in a vast variety of flavors when it comes to how they show up in stories and media. no one stat makes sense for all of them. While DEX doesn't seem to go with the idea of a kinetisist, it dosn't NOT go either (after all, a bendy arm means you can position your hands better to control the element). It's a neutral generic stat and probably perfect for the sake of neutrality.

This being said,in order for someone to make a kinetisist who fits with a certain tradition, they NEED it to be based in a particular mental stat. The question is how to achieve this. as I see it we have three options

1. archetypes designate a mental stat: This has the problem of potentially railroading your choices. a good option for a select few archetypes, but to do this for all could be a problem

2. As a wild talent: This poses the possible danger of breaking the class, but at the same time, the wild talent tax balances it better. my vote is for this one.

3. Ditch DEX, make it three pathes: this has the possible problem of having the class be overcomplicated. It also is a practical problem as it involves the class practically being rewritten. also a select few I notice actually like the idea of the kinetisist using DEX to aim so ditching it would step on their toes and adding DEX as a 4th path compounds the main problem.

any fixes you guys can think of for these problems or alternative solutions altogether?


Tels wrote:

Again, no, mental stats *Do Not* govern how one directs their attacks. There are limited cases of this happening in the game, but it's always limited in used.

Dexterity is all about speed and precision. It governs how you aim a bow, a gun, a crossbow, a scorching ray. It is the ability score that allows you to use complicated fighting styles, like two weapon fighting. It's the stat that allows you to react and move out of the way of things.

Dexterity is all about controlling how your body moves and directs itself. Strength is all about moving your body and the force it generates. Constitution is all about how much your body can stand.

With Kineticists channeling power through their body, the body is the governing source. Hence, the energy the expel, comes from the body and is guided by the body. Therefore, it is dexterity that aims it.

Even magical spells, creations of the mind, are directed, controlled and aimed using the body. Spells are, like the kineticist's blasts, magical bullets. The caster loads their gun each day and then fires them when he needs to. Once the spell leaves a caster's body, it no longer is under his control. You fire a ray by pointing a finger; where your finger points, is where your ray goes.

The same is true for Kinetic blasts. It is not a mental action and requires a hand to use it.

The problem is you keep on thinking of kinetic blasts as ray attacks. they are not ray attacks. a telekenetisist is not shooting a table across the room from his hand. he is lifting it up and throwing it sideways. the motion of the elements are very fluid, not rigged like an arrow or a lazer

I direct you to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSxp8jnG88I

note all the flailing about? that is not careful aiming in a single direction.

and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qejsW9qmpSg

the shots are actually stopped midair and redirected. they even tend to curve towards the opponent.

you also compare a blast to a sorcerers spell. That's apples and oranges. a shot is out of a sorcerers control once it leaves him. kinetisists are effectively using a beefed up version of mage hand to hit people with stuff. While momentum might be a problem, they could conceivably stop the blast mid shot.

That being said, does dex play a part? of course. you still have to wave your hand in the general direction of your target. That's like saying the justice league's flash needs his strength to be his highest atribute. does it help? of course, but his main thing is speed.

(BTW I'm using the telekenetisist as the baseline for all of the elements. Are you using the pyro? If so, that might explain the different visions we both seem to have for this class.)


There's been... what, 4 or 5 people who've posted since your original post? Two of those people have spoken up about not being in favor of abandoning dexterity as your 'aiming' stat?

How the hell is that a select few? Also, why you trying to imply that the vast majority of the people want mental stats as the stat used to aim the blasts? Where are you pulling your numbers from?

Up until you posted, I've only seen the barest of coughs in this thread about giving a Kineticist a mental stat, and that was moving the casting stat from Con to something else. Often also in conjunction with removing Burn.

I can't really recall anyone here, especially not in any significant number, campaigning for the removal of Dex as a primary stat for the Kineticist.

One of the goals for the Kineticist, as far as I can tell, is specifically Not to make another SAD caster. No more magical classes that focus all of their ability upgrades onto a single, all powerful stat.

By making the Kineticist use Constitution for raw power, and dexterity for finesse, Mark also stopped the issue of a Kineticist playing an HP juggernaut that only refused to use burn and used his blast to supplement other methods of fighting. Like using Kinetic Blade/Whip and avoiding burn at all costs. If he used Con as a SADclass, he'd be capable of getting, what, 260 bonus HP by 20th level? Not accounting for dice rolls or toughness?

I mean, picture him as a villain. Capable of flying around, using air defenses to prevent ranged attacks, with nearly 300 HP. He'd be annoying as hell as a villain. Not picture something like that as a PC only he did it in every encounter.

You can't kill the guy easily, too much hp and a respectable AC. With all day blasts, he can wear down nearly any opponent, given time.

No, the class is much better off splitting it's ability score focus.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:

Again, no, mental stats *Do Not* govern how one directs their attacks. There are limited cases of this happening in the game, but it's always limited in used.

Dexterity is all about speed and precision. It governs how you aim a bow, a gun, a crossbow, a scorching ray. It is the ability score that allows you to use complicated fighting styles, like two weapon fighting. It's the stat that allows you to react and move out of the way of things.

Dexterity is all about controlling how your body moves and directs itself. Strength is all about moving your body and the force it generates. Constitution is all about how much your body can stand.

With Kineticists channeling power through their body, the body is the governing source. Hence, the energy the expel, comes from the body and is guided by the body. Therefore, it is dexterity that aims it.

Even magical spells, creations of the mind, are directed, controlled and aimed using the body. Spells are, like the kineticist's blasts, magical bullets. The caster loads their gun each day and then fires them when he needs to. Once the spell leaves a caster's body, it no longer is under his control. You fire a ray by pointing a finger; where your finger points, is where your ray goes.

The same is true for Kinetic blasts. It is not a mental action and requires a hand to use it.

The problem is you keep on thinking of kinetic blasts as ray attacks. they are not ray attacks. a telekenetisist is not shooting a table across the room from his hand. he is lifting it up and throwing it sideways. the motion of the elements are very fluid, not rigged like an arrow or a lazer

I direct you to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSxp8jnG88I

note all the flailing about? that is not careful aiming in a single direction.

and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qejsW9qmpSg

the shots are actually stopped midair and redirected. they even tend to curve towards the opponent.

you also compare a blast to a sorcerers spell. That's apples and...

I'm not using *any* element as the baseline. I'm using kineticist as a baseline.

The Kineticist blast is absolutley like a ray. They are functionally identical in all aspects except the blast doesn't benefit from feats that specifically call out rays, like Weapon Focus (ray) or Improved Critical (ray). That's it.

Both have ranges of 30 ft. (or more)
Both deal damage.
Both are aimed and directed by a hand.
Both shoot out in a straight line.
Both target touch ac.
Both crit on natural 20s.
Both deal double damage on a crit.
Neither function in an anti-magic zone.
Both can be used to sneak attack.

Exactly the same in every way, except for the specific weapon feats.

By the way, Telekinesis specifies throwing it, you are not using a souped up Mage Hand to move something at fast speeds. Think of it more like a pitcher or quarterback. The telekinetic picks up an object, builds up energy, releases it, and causes the object to fly through the air. There is no sustained energy field here, guiding it around. It's not unlike a telekinetically aimed gun.

You need to start thinking of the Kineticist as a gun, and not as someone who is in constant control of the energy he releases. You are projecting what you want to see, or what you want to think the Kineticist to be, instead of what the Kineticist actually is.


Tels wrote:

There's been... what, 4 or 5 people who've posted since your original post? Two of those people have spoken up about not being in favor of abandoning dexterity as your 'aiming' stat?

How the hell is that a select few? Also, why you trying to imply that the vast majority of the people want mental stats as the stat used to aim the blasts? Where are you pulling your numbers from?

Up until you posted, I've only seen the barest of coughs in this thread about giving a Kineticist a mental stat, and that was moving the casting stat from Con to something else. Often also in conjunction with removing Burn.

I can't really recall anyone here, especially not in any significant number, campaigning for the removal of Dex as a primary stat for the Kineticist.

One of the goals for the Kineticist, as far as I can tell, is specifically Not to make another SAD caster. No more magical classes that focus all of their ability upgrades onto a single, all powerful stat.

By making the Kineticist use Constitution for raw power, and dexterity for finesse, Mark also stopped the issue of a Kineticist playing an HP juggernaut that only refused to use burn and used his blast to supplement other methods of fighting. Like using Kinetic Blade/Whip and avoiding burn at all costs. If he used Con as a SADclass, he'd be capable of getting, what, 260 bonus HP by 20th level? Not accounting for dice rolls or toughness?

I mean, picture him as a villain. Capable of flying around, using air defenses to prevent ranged attacks, with nearly 300 HP. He'd be annoying as hell as a villain. Not picture something like that as a PC only he did it in every encounter.

You can't kill the guy easily, too much hp and a respectable AC. With all day blasts, he can wear down nearly any opponent, given time.

No, the class is much better off splitting it's ability score focus.

I read up to about page 45. The change was mentioned a number of times but the conversation always turned back to the skill point problem and the burn problem.

as for the SADness, I am NOT advocating ditching CON for one mental stat. I am saying cleanly switch what DEX does to a mental stat and KEEP CON. doing so actually makes the class a little MADer. As it stands, you only need CON and DEX. if you use a mental stat then you would need CON, DEX, and the mental stat.

the problem is different people want different stats. earlier in the thread someone was wanting INT. I want WIS and another person a few posts up wants CHA and you want to keep it DEX. I disagree with DEX both because I don't think it's a psychic power thing AND because it makes the class rather SAD. a mental stat of SOME sort is needed though. even the fighter class needs INT for feat qualification purposes. Two stats are too few and the lack of ANY dependency on a mental stat for a psychic style character seems wrong.


Tels wrote:

Both shoot out in a straight line.

Both target touch ac.

it never says it is a straight line, just that it is within 30ft (MARK may need to clarify this in the final draft. it can be taken multiple ways) and only some of the blasts target touch.

that being said, looking at some of the wording it does look like you loose control after you shoot, but it is still you picking something up with a super mage hand and throwing it with said mage hand.

You are projecting just as much as I...and that's cool. A class that is somewhat open to what the attacks look like is a good thing. All I want is for us to BOTH be able to make the class our own.

That being said, I absolutely refuse to think of the kinetisist as a gun. If I wanted that I would just play a sorcerer. Turning this into a generic blaster just makes it a rehash of the same old stuff.

A really good fix for our disagreement would be to make a feat that functions like weapon finesse except instead of STR->DEX to hit it would be mental stat-> DEX to hit (unfortunately, you can't make a DEX->mental stat feat because other classes would abuse it.) As it stands, the class practically requires weapon finesse anyway, why not give a variable version?

that still doesn't solve the problem of WHICH mental stat though. I still say keeping DEX as the base and granting a wild talent to change it is best.

another option: make every mental stat do a different thing. WIS guides it for hit, INT grants you a dodge bonus, CHA increases damage maybe? might make it too MAD. don't know, just throwing out ideas.


I think that, if there's a good reason to replace DEX with a mental stat, it is that the Kineticist in its current form depends heavily on two stats that are both tied to the belt slot. Until you start getting into high level play you really have to choose which one of the two you want to advance because the split bonus belt is not cost effective.


brightshadow360 wrote:
Tels wrote:

Both shoot out in a straight line.

Both target touch ac.

it never says it is a straight line, just that it is within 30ft (MARK may need to clarify this in the final draft. it can be taken multiple ways) and only some of the blasts target touch.

that being said, looking at some of the wording it does look like you loose control after you shoot, but it is still you picking something up with a super mage hand and throwing it with said mage hand.

You are projecting just as much as I...and that's cool. A class that is somewhat open to what the attacks look like is a good thing. All I want is for us to BOTH be able to make the class our own.

That being said, I absolutely refuse to think of the kinetisist as a gun. If I wanted that I would just play a sorcerer. Turning this into a generic blaster just makes it a rehash of the same old stuff.

A really good fix for our disagreement would be to make a feat that functions like weapon finesse except instead of STR->DEX to hit it would be mental stat-> DEX to hit (unfortunately, you can't make a DEX->mental stat feat because other classes would abuse it.) As it stands, the class practically requires weapon finesse anyway, why not give a variable version?

that still doesn't solve the problem of WHICH mental stat though. I still say keeping DEX as the base and granting a wild talent to change it is best.

another option: make every mental stat do a different thing. WIS guides it for hit, INT grants you a dodge bonus, CHA increases damage maybe? might make it too MAD. don't know, just throwing out ideas.

I am not projecting what I desire the Kineticist to be at all. There is no ability to 'control' your blast once it's been fire (until higher level with, like, a single talnet). You cannot stop a blast once it's fired. No more so than an archer with an arrow, a sniper a bullet, or a wizard his ray. Once it's fired, it's fired and that's it.

The Kineticist can stop his blast at any point up until he fires it. But once it's been fired, it's out of his control. That is *exactly* like a gun.

The Kineticist is a gun. He may get all kinds of attachments and special ammunition to do different things, but in the end, a gun is a gun.

You want a mental based blaster. That's fine, but that's not the Kineticist. You're going to have to hope for archetype support or some ability to change it, because the Kineticist is a dex based shooter powered by his ability to channel psychic energies through his body.

If you drain his Int, Wis, and Cha to 1, he's still fully combat functional and ready to kick ass. Hell, with the new "spell-like abilities aren't spells" re-FAQ, a Kineticist can take a hit from Feeblemind and and keep on trucking.

No other magical class can do that. Because the Kineticist is a physical class with magical abilities. He's a god damned muscle wizard!


Arachnofiend wrote:
I think that, if there's a good reason to replace DEX with a mental stat, it is that the Kineticist in its current form depends heavily on two stats that are both tied to the belt slot. Until you start getting into high level play you really have to choose which one of the two you want to advance because the split bonus belt is not cost effective.

What about Barbarians? Or Fighters? Or Rogues? Or any Martial?

I mean, Barbarians function off Strength, Con and Dex. Does that mean Rage should be moved to functioning off Charisma so it gets earlier stat bumps?

While Rogue's and Fighters don't have any class abilities that trigger off ability scores, they still rely heavily on physical ability scores far more so than they do mental. Should they be able to use their Intelligence for Dexterity? I mean, then they can properly calculate the paths they need to tumble correctly without error right? They also become smart enough to know how to react before others, and they know what angles to fire their weapons into the proper trajectory to strike their target.

Changing their stats from two physical to one physical, one mental because of ability belts is a stretch, as far as reasons go.


Tels wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
I think that, if there's a good reason to replace DEX with a mental stat, it is that the Kineticist in its current form depends heavily on two stats that are both tied to the belt slot. Until you start getting into high level play you really have to choose which one of the two you want to advance because the split bonus belt is not cost effective.

What about Barbarians? Or Fighters? Or Rogues? Or any Martial?

I mean, Barbarians function off Strength, Con and Dex. Does that mean Rage should be moved to functioning off Charisma so it gets earlier stat bumps?

While Rogue's and Fighters don't have any class abilities that trigger off ability scores, they still rely heavily on physical ability scores far more so than they do mental. Should they be able to use their Intelligence for Dexterity? I mean, then they can properly calculate the paths they need to tumble correctly without error right? They also become smart enough to know how to react before others, and they know what angles to fire their weapons into the proper trajectory to strike their target.

Changing their stats from two physical to one physical, one mental because of ability belts is a stretch, as far as reasons go.

Actually, all of the martial classes rely on a single stat for both attack and damage. You can pump your offense simply by pumping strength (or dexterity as the case may be); you don't choose between raising the stat that makes you hit harder or the stat that just makes you hit.

I think making attack and damage singularly dependent on CON would be a bad idea, of course, so the compromise would be to allow the kineticist to use the overall cheaper headband/belt combo rather than a very expensive DEX/CON belt.


Considering a lot more attacks/abilities do Str, Dex, and Con damage then Int, Wis, or Cha I would say that argument about the mental stat damage is invalid.

I would still like to see an archetypes that use Int, Wis, and Cha for damage, DCs, and possibly hit. I am fine with Con still being for burn though looks like we will get one for undead that is cha based, not what I was looking for but still sounds interesting.


I have been thinking on something: Telekineticists can throw objects. What qualifies as on object?

-Can he throw a mass of air or water? both are physical, have weight, mass, and can cause damage on impact. What about sand, pebbles, spit, a single hair, etc...

-Can he prepare an action to throw back the blast of another kineticist as it's fired (assuming it's a physical one)? The blast itself is unattended just after it's fired.

As far as I see, the aether kineticist uses the object only as medium to deliver the force of his blast, and the object itself does not matter, much like using a metal rod to deliver an electrical discharge. The description of the blast makes no difference between throwing a ball o cotton or a spiked metal sphere. Thoughts?

Sovereign Court

Arachnofiend wrote:


Actually, all of the martial classes rely on a single stat for both attack and damage. You can pump your offense simply by pumping strength (or dexterity as the case may be); you don't choose between raising the stat that makes you hit harder or the stat that just makes you hit.

The exception to this being weapon finesse builds, of course, which until just recently had to ALWAYS buy an Agile weapon to add dex to damage. Also, bow builds still don't add Dex to damage, so needing two belts has been an archer problem forever.


Heladriell wrote:

I have been thinking on something: Telekineticists can throw objects. What qualifies as on object?

-Can he throw a mass of air or water? both are physical, have weight, mass, and can cause damage on impact. What about sand, pebbles, spit, a single hair, etc...

-Can he prepare an action to throw back the blast of another kineticist as it's fired (assuming it's a physical one)? The blast itself is unattended just after it's fired.

As far as I see, the aether kineticist uses the object only as medium to deliver the force of his blast, and the object itself does not matter, much like using a metal rod to deliver an electrical discharge. The description of the blast makes no difference between throwing a ball o cotton or a spiked metal sphere. Thoughts?

I would say that the reflection thing should be a wild talent (that applies to more than just enemy kinetisists) you raise a good point though. if an object is required it needs to be clarified. Also, the objects properties should come into play rather than it just being a medium for aether.

In general, the kenetisist seems to reverse norms. usually your attack is phisical and your resources are mental based. it would be great to see the resources be physical and the to hit be mental

also @ tels: might I direct you to the snaking wild talent? that directly flies in the face of the whole gun philosophy.


brightshadow360 wrote:
also @ tels: might I direct you to the snaking wild talent? that directly flies in the face of the whole gun philosophy.

Which I'm aware of and referenced without naming it.

Tels wrote:
There is no ability to 'control' your blast once it's been fire (until higher level with, like, a single talnet).

Note, however, it does not allow you to stop it. It allows you to shoot around corners and obstacles, and you have to choose the path before firing. Once it's fired, there's no stopping it. So if an enemy readies an action to move, you miss, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Congratulations, you've been upgraded from a gun, to a shoulder mounted heat seeking missile.


Or you watched too much Wanted and now want to curve bullet(blast).


havoc xiii wrote:
Or you watched too much Wanted and now want to curve bullet(blast).

I've never seen Wanted and have no desire to.


Tels wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Or you watched too much Wanted and now want to curve bullet(blast).
I've never seen Wanted and have no desire to.

Good, its not worth the time even if it does have Morgan Freeman in it.


havoc xiii wrote:
Tels wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Or you watched too much Wanted and now want to curve bullet(blast).
I've never seen Wanted and have no desire to.
Good, its not worth the time even if it does have Morgan Freeman in it.

I also don't buy into the Morgan Freeman hype either. My panties don't get wet when he speaks.

James Earl Jones however...


Am I the only one who likes the class as it is? Con forever!


Tels wrote:
brightshadow360 wrote:
also @ tels: might I direct you to the snaking wild talent? that directly flies in the face of the whole gun philosophy.

Which I'm aware of and referenced without naming it.

Tels wrote:
There is no ability to 'control' your blast once it's been fire (until higher level with, like, a single talnet).

Note, however, it does not allow you to stop it. It allows you to shoot around corners and obstacles, and you have to choose the path before firing. Once it's fired, there's no stopping it. So if an enemy readies an action to move, you miss, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Congratulations, you've been upgraded from a gun, to a shoulder mounted heat seeking missile.

YES! yes yes yes! You finally get it. A curving shot is all I ever was really after. However I do think that at higher levels, you should be able to control the shot more. Maybe some high level talents to "cancel" a shot if it would hit an ally? Maybe a way to feint with a blast by stopping it midway?

ChaoticSky wrote:
Am I the only one who likes the class as it is? Con forever!

Our argument is not about CON. CON is great new, and unique as a caster thing and needs to stay. Our argument has to do with DEX as the to-hit stat. On one side, we have people arguing to keep dex as the hit stat. on the other we have people arguing for one mental stat or another (I prefer WIS both for flavor and mechanically, but I can see INT and CHA working too flavorwise)

Tels wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Tels wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Or you watched too much Wanted and now want to curve bullet(blast).
I've never seen Wanted and have no desire to.
Good, its not worth the time even if it does have Morgan Freeman in it.

I also don't buy into the Morgan Freeman hype either. My panties don't get wet when he speaks.

James Earl Jones however...

I like the guy as a person really. he seems to have a healthy respect for science IRL....

.
.
.
Also you are now imagining Morgan Freeman as your GM *runs away before you can beat me to death*


brightshadow360 wrote:
YES! yes yes yes! You finally get it. A curving shot is all I ever was really after. However I do think that at higher levels, you should be able to control the shot more. Maybe some high level talents to "cancel" a shot if it would hit an ally? Maybe a way to feint with a blast by stopping it midway?

Why do you keep speaking to me as if though I'm an idiot child incapable of understanding your intellectual superiority?

If being able to curve a blast around targets is what you wanted from the get go, then what was the damn point considering what you wanted already existed in the game?

What you seemingly claim to want, and what you've been saying are vastly different. You want to be able to stop your blasts after they've been fired (apparently, to stop it from hitting allies, something you can't do in Pathfinder in the first place; there's no friendly fire in this game). You want to be able to change targets mid-blast if they move (very unlikely to happen). You want to change the dex to hit to a mental stat because you claim it matches the flavor, despite there being zero evidence in the publish class for a mental stat to do so.

This is what you've stated so far. Yet, it's not what you claim to be originally after.

A base class that uses a mental stat to hit is not going to happen in this game. As an archetype, maybe, because then it's restricted to only the archetype. Not the entire class.

Regardless, the Kineticist is a class that manifests magic through physical means. It's not a mental class, no matter how much you want it to be.

Also, feinting with the blast would not be possible (outside melee blasts) as feinting is specifically restricted to only melee attacks. As far as I'm aware, there is only a single method to feint at range, and that's the Archer archetype for the Fighter and is restricted to the use of a Bow.

Keep in mind, the blasts that target touch AC would have to hit AC 10 + Deflection, size, luck and sacred/profane modifiers. Touch attacks are already all but guaranteed to hit, a feinting touch attack is just absurd.

Designer

Easy guys. Easy. There's really no need to argue over which stats the kineticist uses, as the class's stats have already been decided. I would hate to see this thread locked over rising heat from something that ultimately doesn't matter that much.


Im just curious as to how conspicuous Kineticist powers are (primarily for urban settings with lots of people around. I know fire, lightning, and the like would be very visible, but what about Aether or Air), and how they work with creatures that don't have proper hands, like Nagas or Dragons. I've asked these questions in the past but they were quickly buried by other questions with a touch more pertinence. Now that the discussion forum has wound down a bit, hopefully I can acquire the answers I seek.


Tels wrote:
brightshadow360 wrote:
YES! yes yes yes! You finally get it. A curving shot is all I ever was really after. However I do think that at higher levels, you should be able to control the shot more. Maybe some high level talents to "cancel" a shot if it would hit an ally? Maybe a way to feint with a blast by stopping it midway?

Why do you keep speaking to me as if though I'm an idiot child incapable of understanding your intellectual superiority?

If being able to curve a blast around targets is what you wanted from the get go, then what was the damn point considering what you wanted already existed in the game?

What you seemingly claim to want, and what you've been saying are vastly different. You want to be able to stop your blasts after they've been fired (apparently, to stop it from hitting allies, something you can't do in Pathfinder in the first place; there's no friendly fire in this game). You want to be able to change targets mid-blast if they move (very unlikely to happen). You want to change the dex to hit to a mental stat because you claim it matches the flavor, despite there being zero evidence in the publish class for a mental stat to do so.

This is what you've stated so far. Yet, it's not what you claim to be originally after.

A base class that uses a mental stat to hit is not going to happen in this game. As an archetype, maybe, because then it's restricted to only the archetype. Not the entire class.

Regardless, the Kineticist is a class that manifests magic through physical means. It's not a mental class, no matter how much you want it to be.

Also, feinting with the blast would not be possible (outside melee blasts) as feinting is specifically restricted to only melee attacks. As far as I'm aware, there is only a single method to feint at range, and that's the Archer archetype for the Fighter and is restricted to the use of a Bow.

Keep in mind, the blasts that target touch AC would have to hit AC 10 + Deflection, size, luck and sacred/profane modifiers....

...I'm sorry if i came off that way. I was just happy that the misunderstanding was cleared up. I thought we were coming to a consensus. I wasn't trying to insult you or treat you like an idiot.

As for hitting allies, you can in the game when you shoot into melee. for the feinting thing I was just throwing out ideas out. That wasn't a serious suggestion, just an idea for the future. Most of what I have posted are ideas.

I just want a class were I can make a traditional shonen anime character like a sayian or a jedi is all. The mental to-hit would be innovative and new and would allow me to make a "never give up" type character. As things stand, I am forced to make a character with about as much of a mind as a barbarian. Those are my personal motivations.

On the logical front kinetisists are psycics. psycics are all about the mind. Seems as obvious to me as claiming that a wizard uses formulas and his intelligence to learn magic by referencing Merlin as the go to example.

On the mechanical front, a mental stat would help rebalance the character both in equipment and in versatility. WIS would be especially good because of the poor will save.

This being said, I long ago Acknowledged that DEX was a good neutral ground due to all three mental fitting the common idea of a kinetisist. I suggested wild talents for the mental stat as a possible fix. I am and have been suggesting things that would give options for everybody to take their personal interperitation.


technarken wrote:
Im just curious as to how conspicuous Kineticist powers are (primarily for urban settings with lots of people around. I know fire, lightning, and the like would be very visible, but what about Aether or Air), and how they work with creatures that don't have proper hands, like Nagas or Dragons. I've asked these questions in the past but they were quickly buried by other questions with a touch more pertinence. Now that the discussion forum has wound down a bit, hopefully I can acquire the answers I seek.

For one thing it probably depends on your Burn. In the original burn text is says that there are visual effects as you aquire Burn (probably the same for the new elemental overflow). For Air, maybe winds act up around you. your clothes are always billowing "in the wind" even indoors. for aether maybe light gets wonky around you and bends near your skin. Alternatively, little rocks and pebbles float when near you. maybe the ground cracks under your feet when you have a lot of burn. maybe Geo involves him unconsciously altering the ground as he walks (good wild talent idea for moving over difficult terrain)

For non-humanoids, I would imagine you would use your primary limb to control the element (use your tail or mouth). Either that or it requires a feat like what druids have to take to cast in wild shape.


brightshadow360 wrote:
...I'm sorry if i came off that way. I was just happy that the misunderstanding was cleared up. I thought we were coming to a consensus. I wasn't trying to insult you or treat you like an idiot.

It's very possible I was just reading too much into it, so I apologize for over reacting.

brightshadow360 wrote:
As for hitting allies, you can in the game when you shoot into melee. for the feinting thing I was just throwing out ideas out. That wasn't a serious suggestion, just an idea for the future. Most of what I have posted are ideas.

Well... that was changed in Pathfinder. You only take a -4 penalty for shooting into melee, it no longer carries the accidental chance of shooting an ally. Probably because the 3E 'shoot into melee' rules were kind of wonky and not exactly clear on how things work.

Shooting into Melee:
If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)

If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character.

If your target is two size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with, this penalty is reduced to –2. There is no penalty for firing at a creature that is three size categories larger than the friendly characters it is engaged with.

brightshadow360 wrote:
I just want a class were I can make a traditional shonen anime character like a sayian or a jedi is all. The mental to-hit would be innovative and new and would allow me to make a "never give up" type character. As things stand, I am forced to make a character with about as much of a mind as a barbarian. Those are my personal motivations.

I would like this as well, however, the Kineticist is likely the best you're going to get. Archetype support might help you achieve this desire, but, when you are trying to create a character while drawing inspiration from another source, you have to make sacrifices and narrow down exactly what it is you really want from the character.

I made a Jedi inspired character using the telekinetic waaaay back early on in this thread. It took a while for my Jedi to get what I felt was 'minimum' qualifications as a Jedi, but the Kineticist can do it. Sure, he's not a super wise Jedi like Yoda, but, I feel, those Jedi are probably more of an exception than one would think. Sure, Jedi as a whole may be wise, but... I think we, as viewers/readers, have been spoiled by the cream of the crop of Jedi, when compared to the reality.

brightshadow360 wrote:
On the logical front kinetisists are psycics. psycics are all about the mind. Seems as obvious to me as claiming that a wizard uses formulas and his intelligence to learn magic by referencing Merlin as the go to example.

Well... yes, in most media kineticist style characters have strong mental faculties. But, the thing to remember, is that the flavor of the Kineticist class is not one that focuses on mental faculties. The Kineticist class as it exists in Pathfinder is a physical magician. This is just something we're going to have to come to except.

When I think of the Kineticist, I have to think less of Jedi, or Benders, or even Carrie, and focus more on characters like Natsu from the Fairy Tail mange/anime. Dude is a powerful Pyrokinetic, but he's also famously stupid. He's good at fighting, and amazingly resilient, but anything even remotely required of thought is better left to someone else.

But... it's a sacrifice I have to make to play a character I desire. Sure, mental stats aren't the focus of my class, but that doesn't mean I can't have good mental stats. Especially since I don't need Strength.

brightshadow360 wrote:
This being said, I long ago Acknowledged that DEX was a good neutral ground due to all three mental fitting the common idea of a kinetisist. I suggested wild talents for the mental stat as a possible fix. I am and have been suggesting things that would give options for everybody to take their personal interperitation.

I strongly think the only way to get a mental stat to hit is via archetype support. However, I think the Kineticist is probably hurting for room for archetypes as it is.

We know from Mark that the Kineticist is the largest class, physically, in the book (not accounting for spells). The Kineticist will also be amazingly versatile for an archetype template, because it will have so many potential class abilities to trade away.

There's also lots of different styles of Kineticists to make archetypes for. I mean, look at the desired archetypes I posted upthread, and I'm certain that's only the start. We've already got all but confirmation there is a 'blood focused' (blood bender or even sorcerous bloodlines) and an 'undead friendly' archetype, I would expect there to be between 3 and 5 more possible archetypes for the Kineticists, so the room for more and varied archetypes is going to be slim.

A Mono-element archetype is probably likely, and I strongly suspect there will be a Monk-ish archetype and possibly a more generic melee archetype. So that's between 4 and 5 archetypes right there, for a class that's already taking up more room than any other in the class section of the book.

I think... it's probably best to just hope for more Kineticist support in further supplements.


well now. the shooting into melee thing is news to me. My GM still plays by 3.5 rules for that.

I will most certainly find a way to shove the square peg in the round hole if it comes to it (multiclassing FTW). Still would prefer something more versatile like a wild talent or paths than it being an archtype thing because then far too many archetypes would need it to create clasic kietisist types.

Then again, what if we had mini-archetypes that fit with all others? something like that for each mental stat would solve pretty much all of our problems here.

On a side note, Natsu of fairytale is definitly CHA based with the whole "DON"T MESS WITH FAIRYTALE! I'M ALL FIRED UP!" thing.


brightshadow360 wrote:

well now. the shooting into melee thing is news to me. My GM still plays by 3.5 rules for that.

I will most certainly find a way to shove the square peg in the round hole if it comes to it (multiclassing FTW). Still would prefer something more versatile like a wild talent or paths than it being an archtype thing because then far too many archetypes would need it to create clasic kietisist types.

Then again, what if we had mini-archetypes that fit with all others? something like that for each mental stat would solve pretty much all of our problems here.

On a side note, Natsu of fairytale is definitly CHA based with the whole "DON"T MESS WITH FAIRYTALE! I'M ALL FIRED UP!" thing.

I.... would not use charismatic, diplomatic, persuasive or deceptive to describe Natsu.

Being loyal to a group of friends and getting aggressive at the thought of combat is not something restricted to Charisma. I mean, if that were true, then Barbarians would all be charisma based.


Mark said the Kineticist is the largest part of the book, not including spells, I thought the Medium was going to be?

That is good question, how much space will the book have for Archetypes? How many for each new class? Which ones and how many for all the other classes in the game?

How about a single archetype that lets you choose with mental stat you are based on? Though I still would love a cha based one that gets sorcerer bloodline powers.


Tels wrote:


I.... would not use charismatic, diplomatic, persuasive or deceptive to describe Natsu.

Being loyal to a group of friends and getting aggressive at the thought of combat is not something restricted to Charisma. I mean, if that were true, then Barbarians would all be charisma based.

Here are the rulebook descriptions for WIS and CHA:

"Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition."

"Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance."

I would say that natsu is very charismatic and is very err..."persuasive". Diplomatic and deceptive though? not so much. Almost seems like there are two kinds of charisma in pathfinder: the "I know what I want and what to do follow me and don't question it!" kind and the "I will totally confuse you into doing what I want with my charm" type. it's probably the most difficult to pin down stat in the game.

on a side note how is natsu and his lot WIZARDS? the series calls them wizards but I have never seen one of them crack open a book.

Dragon78 wrote:

Mark said the Kineticist is the largest part of the book, not including spells, I thought the Medium was going to be?

That is good question, how much space will the book have for Archetypes? How many for each new class? Which ones and how many for all the other classes in the game?

How about a single archetype that lets you choose with mental stat you are based on? Though I still would love a cha based one that gets sorcerer bloodline powers.

I think the mini archetype thing is a good idea. The question is, should it be one archetype that lets you choose, or three archetypes that each use one stat? I would say the three mini ones because you can then give a little extra flavor enhancement to go with it. (I'm guessing there probably has to be at least two changes to the class for it to be an archetype, otherwise you might as well make it a wild talent instead and that misses a chance to tweak the class to fit around the idea of the new stat).

As to the number, Mark has implied (though not confirmed) a monk, an undead, and a healer archetype. Whether they are "kinetisist flavored monk/healer" or "monk/healer flavored kinetisist" is even more debatable. Couldn't hurt to shoot ideas out though.

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