General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Scarab Sages

Deadbeat Doom wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Protoman wrote:
That's a great point, mpl. My pyro just hit level 3 picking up weapon finesse and for the first time in his PFS career I'm looking forward to bait enemies into melee to take advantage of kinetic blade + searing flesh (2 burn for 2d6 Fire damage) + high hit points.
I'm currently a level 2 pyro, and he's almost completely useless. Every fight has been with guys who have only melee weapon attacks, or major resistances to fire. Then there's the high SR. Five sessions and he's only been useful once, and it was against a skeletal dragon.
What kind of game are you playing in that you are encountering fire resistance and skeletal dragons at second level?

My level 1 PFS pyro is currently fighting lemurs. Fire immune.


... Yet again, PFS makes no sense @_@


Well, lemures are CR 1. That being said, this sort of energy immunity is a bit too common among even low level extraplanar threats. Pyrokineticists facing devils and electricity blasters going up against demons are pretty much out of luck.


That being said, the 1st Level Sorcerer with only Burning Hands (for damage) still has to pull out a crossbow against the same targets. Low levels skews heavily in favor of massive hitters like Fighters and Barbarians, while casters and hybrids have to ramp up. Characters that fall outside of 2H Melee have trouble with these types of problems until they get ways to overcome these issues.


I think I've played at 1st and 2nd level maybe a handful of times per edition of D&D. Once we've done it for the novelty/to test it/to prove we can do it, I don't think anyone I've played with actually enjoys those levels. In 3rd/Pathfinder and actually 5e as well, we've generally found that 3rd level is the ideal low level starting point, even if we're doing E6. But yeah, it sucks to be low level no matter who you are unless you have full BAB and thus can power attack at 1st with a two-hander.


Sphynx wrote:
The text actually states that the object HAS to weigh 5lbs per Kineticist level... I'm pretty sure though that it was suppose to be a max (not a precise weight). I think it was based on Light Touch, and then they changed Light Touch to be 5lbs every 2 levels... But that's just assumption. :P

It actually says "The object must weight 5 lbs. per kineticist level you possess or less." A crucial, but very small and easily missable addition.

Sovereign Court

Unfortunately, all three elementalists are kind of out of luck in situations like this until level 7 (Elec with Demons, Cold with skeletons, Fire with too many things to name.) I think unless your concept is specifically centered around one of the 3 elemental damages, it's almost always better to start with the physical damage types.


I know this is probably really last-minute to ask, but the thought just occurred to me recently: how does Kineticist fit in with the Mythic rules?

Are there or will there be new mythic options to supplement the Kineticist (if not in this book, then some other book at a future date)?


Harrison wrote:

I know this is probably really last-minute to ask, but the thought just occurred to me recently: how does Kineticist fit in with the Mythic rules?

Are there or will there be new mythic options to supplement the Kineticist (if not in this book, then some other book at a future date)?

I feel like there's fun to be had as a trickster Kineticist. Now I'm here, now I'm not isn't a bad playstyle for a class with ranged and aoe at will abilities. Juggling mythic abilities I can flat not exist, show up next to you, full kinetic whip, and I think there's ways to slip a Ride the Blast in there to dip out after.


Man, I really wish I'd had the time to test this earlier, because I'm not sure anyone has touched on exactly HOW BAD kinetic Fist is in comparison to Kinetic Blade.

Kinetic Blade: Full Blast damage, plus any modifier you would normally add (but not Str, and presumably Dex).

Kinetic Fist: 1/3 Blast damage, no Con mod, but allows Str.

In essence, the Kinetic Fist will NEVER be as good as the Blade. It deals 1/3 of the damage, at best.

Near as I can tell, you don't get an increase in d6's until SEVENTH LEVEL, and that's the only damage addition it has.

So, 1st level, Blade: 1d6+1+Con, vs Fist 1d6+1+Str or Dex. So, not bad there.

Then at 3rd, 2d6+2+Con, vs 1d6+1+Dex/Sstr. Not so good.

Then 5th, 3d6+3+Con, vs 1d6+1+Dex/Str. Really bad.

Then finally, at 7th, 4d6+4+Con, vs 2d6+2+Dex/Str.

At BEST it does half the damage. At worst, it does 1/3.

With no other particular benefits, either, besides ignoring SR (which simply makes it less bad, slightly). Especially if you're Earth.

Why doesn't it simply work as Kinetic Blade, but without Con? I was very disappointed when I tried to make a Monk-ish guy with this. I'd be better off grabbing Dragon Style/Ferocity (which any Unarmed Strike user should anyway) and then using Elemental Fist. It scales faster, and I can pick any Elemental damage I want.


Rynjin wrote:
SNIP

Is Kinetic Fist still worth it if your doing gestalt, with one half being monk or brawler?


I'd say no, considering I'm trying to make it work within my Freeform Class Selection system, so it's semi-Gestalt already.

You're adding a mere 1d6+1 or 2d6+2 on attacks at most levels, so it's pretty lackluster (especially if you're not Flurrying, which I'm not since this guy has MoMS).

Designer

Milo v3 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
SNIP
Is Kinetic Fist still worth it if your doing gestalt, with one half being monk or brawler?

If you're full gestalt, you can do some terrifying things at higher levels if you have the right substance infusions (flurry of dispels ftw!)...In the off chance that an archetype for kinetic fist characters is in the final book, I'll have to see how it turns out, but it would be my intention for such a character to be capable of such tricks without gestalting (though obviously not as awesome as a gestalt character would be because that would not be a good idea).


Shiroi wrote:
Harrison wrote:

I know this is probably really last-minute to ask, but the thought just occurred to me recently: how does Kineticist fit in with the Mythic rules?

Are there or will there be new mythic options to supplement the Kineticist (if not in this book, then some other book at a future date)?

I feel like there's fun to be had as a trickster Kineticist. Now I'm here, now I'm not isn't a bad playstyle for a class with ranged and aoe at will abilities. Juggling mythic abilities I can flat not exist, show up next to you, full kinetic whip, and I think there's ways to slip a Ride the Blast in there to dip out after.

Unless I can convince the GM that my SLAs count as attacks (for Champion) or spells (for Archmage), I feel like my only real choice is Guardian. I really like Guardian, though, so, I'm not super upset about it. I like one or two Trickster powers, but I don't think it's worth actually taking.

Designer

Guardian is a really solid path overall. When I ran the mythic scenario in PFS, all the characters were either primary Guardian or picked Guardian as their second path with that feat. It was a blast, but it got to the point where one of the players started rooting for the bad guys a little.


Adamantine Mind is a big f*%$ you to a lot of creatures.

Fun fact: Successfully saving against Cthulhu's Death Aura basically makes him a sitting duck.


Rynjin wrote:

Man, I really wish I'd had the time to test this earlier, because I'm not sure anyone has touched on exactly HOW BAD kinetic Fist is in comparison to Kinetic Blade.

Kinetic Blade: Full Blast damage, plus any modifier you would normally add (but not Str, and presumably Dex).

Kinetic Fist: 1/3 Blast damage, no Con mod, but allows Str.

In essence, the Kinetic Fist will NEVER be as good as the Blade. It deals 1/3 of the damage, at best.

Near as I can tell, you don't get an increase in d6's until SEVENTH LEVEL, and that's the only damage addition it has.

So, 1st level, Blade: 1d6+1+Con, vs Fist 1d6+1+Str or Dex. So, not bad there.

Then at 3rd, 2d6+2+Con, vs 1d6+1+Dex/Sstr. Not so good.

Then 5th, 3d6+3+Con, vs 1d6+1+Dex/Str. Really bad.

Then finally, at 7th, 4d6+4+Con, vs 2d6+2+Dex/Str.

At BEST it does half the damage. At worst, it does 1/3.

With no other particular benefits, either, besides ignoring SR (which simply makes it less bad, slightly). Especially if you're Earth.

Why doesn't it simply work as Kinetic Blade, but without Con? I was very disappointed when I tried to make a Monk-ish guy with this. I'd be better off grabbing Dragon Style/Ferocity (which any Unarmed Strike user should anyway) and then using Elemental Fist. It scales faster, and I can pick any Elemental damage I want.

Keep in mind that Kinetic Fist gets added to your normal unarmed strike or natural attack damage. So all of the bonuses and effects one can apply to normal melee apply, but you also get 1/3rd your blast damage on top of that.


I'm wondering how a Kineticist/Rogue would work? Especially if there is a psychic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster.


I'm aware. It's still a really really low damage boost.

Look at it this way, Kinetic Blade is just as effective as your normal blast, but allows you some melee ability.

Kinetic Fist does less, but requires more, in the investment of Feats (Improved Unarmed Strike), Magic Items (Amulet of Mighty Fists), and stats (You now need a Str or Dex to be high to deal damage at all).


Rynjin wrote:

Kinetic Fist does less, but requires more, in the investment of Feats (Improved Unarmed Strike), Magic Items (Amulet of Mighty Fists), and stats (You now need a Str or Dex to be high to deal damage at all).

Which is why I asked about gesalt because feats and such as aren't as big of an issue since monks and brawlers get improved unarmed strike for free + damage increases to your unarmed damage.


Forgive my ignorance, but what talents did you mean by "Basic ZZ wild talents," Mark? I'm assuming that they're the basic elemental manipulation ones, IE Fire Sculpture, but I don't want to ask my DM if we can implement that in our current game until I know for sure.

Also, love the class. You made my inner pyromaniac just as happy as my outer pyromaniac.


Sort of a general "dice pool class" question. Would you feel that measured response is a worthwhile investment for this kind of class (rogue, alchemist, kineticist). At least for the kineticist it's still quite debatable if you'd consider the kinetic blast a weapon I suppose, since just being able to take weapon focus (like say for a ray or touch spell) might not qualify an ability as a weapon for other purposes.


Tonlim wrote:
Sort of a general "dice pool class" question. Would you feel that measured response is a worthwhile investment for this kind of class (rogue, alchemist, kineticist). At least for the kineticist it's still quite debatable if you'd consider the kinetic blast a weapon I suppose, since just being able to take weapon focus (like say for a ray or touch spell) might not qualify an ability as a weapon for other purposes.

Measured Response

Measured Response wrote:

You believe that a conservative but consistent response guarantees success.

Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, worshiper of a good deity.

Benefit: When you hit an opponent with a melee or ranged weapon attack, you may choose to deal average damage (rounded down), as if you had rolled exactly the average amount on the damage die or dice. You add your damage bonuses and penalties as normal.

Measured Response would not work for Alchemists or Rogues as Sneak Attack is additional damage, and not weapon damage. It probably would work for Kinetic Blast, however. It certainly is an interesting feat, though I'm not sure I'd want to devote a feat towards it.


I wouldn't bother with measured response. It reduces your average damage by rounding down. I am perfectly happy trusting statistics, thank you.

Plus, with the changes Mark discussed, kibeticists are getting close to joining the rest of the pathfinder world and dealing more damage with static bonuses than our dice.

For example, a max level kineticist is dealing 35 with the dice, but 25 from just elemental overflow (12 straight damage and 6 Con) and the extra 10 from being a physical blast. If you figure a base Con in the upper 20s, maybe even 30, and the hinted at potential item, yeah, static mods will outstrip the dice, on average.

Oh, and by the endgame, you're just maximizing composite blasts every turn anyway, so, measured response won't get used at all.


Okay, so going back to something I've been seeing because I must have missed that discussion, a kineticist's powers incur spell resistance checks now?


Ashram wrote:
Okay, so going back to something I've been seeing because I must have missed that discussion, a kineticist's powers incur spell resistance checks now?

The blasts that target touch AC and deal energy damage incur SR, but the ones that target regular AC and deal physical damage do not.

Shadow Lodge

If you are in a foe's threatened space, you provoke an AOO for using your Kinetic Blast...but does the movement out of a threatened space in the form of energy from Ride The Blast also incur an AOO?


Sammy T wrote:
If you are in a foe's threatened space, you provoke an AOO for using your Kinetic Blast...but does the movement out of a threatened space in the form of energy from Ride The Blast also incur an AOO?

Kinetic Blade doesn't provoke an AoO. As for the movement, yes, it would. In fact, it would provoke two AoO, one for activating Kinetic Blast (as it's a standard action), and 2 for moving out of a threatened square. The first AoO (for activating Kinetic Blast) has the chance to disrupt the Blast itself, while the second is merely a free attack.

[Edit] See the first post:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This thread is for general discussion of the Kineticist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.

As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.

Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

OFFICAL UPDATES:

In the burn ability in the second paragraph in the first sentence, add the word "blast" before "wild talent".

Entangling Infusion should require kineticist level 6th.

Burn damage cannot be reduced or redirected.

OFFICIAL CLARIFICATIONS:

In the force ward defensive ability, when you end and reactivate your force ward, it does not refill the force ward with hit points. Those only refresh at a rate of 1 per minute.

Kinetic blade uses the same critical range and multiplier as a usual kinetic blast (which is 20/x2). Since it is used as part of a full attack or attack action, it doesn't have its own additional action cost, but you still can only use one instance of kinetic blade with your full attack (that is, you can't summon up 50 kinetic blades, but you can make a full attack with the one blade you did summon). The same is true for kinetic whip. You can use kinetic blade and whip with the charge action as well. Since these wild talents are part of another action, they do not provoke attacks of opportunity, as they are not a separate action.


Rynjin wrote:

I'm aware. It's still a really really low damage boost.

Look at it this way, Kinetic Blade is just as effective as your normal blast, but allows you some melee ability.

Kinetic Fist does less, but requires more, in the investment of Feats (Improved Unarmed Strike), Magic Items (Amulet of Mighty Fists), and stats (You now need a Str or Dex to be high to deal damage at all).

I don't consider it a bad damage boost at all. Look at a one level dip in monk of many styles, with snake and panther, using TWF because fist allows that, using dex because they're light weapons, you get double the 1/3 damage because you have twice as many attacks. Now include entangling, or as Mark said, dispelling. I have twice as many chances to inflict elemental effects as a whip does. In fact, if ride the blast is loosely interpreted, I could dance through a crowd popping up behind the guys I hit, to make the next target accessible, incurring attacks of opportunity to do so, which a moms loves to hear, and leaving a statue garden in my wake.

Let's basic math here...
3x100 for whip
6+AoO x(33+fist damage+aomf) for fist

Does it look so out of place now?

Speaking of, Mark, could you comment on the use of RtB with melee? Presumably a melee attack can strike from many angles, so I could in theory hit the right shoulder of a target and appear on that side of them. Probably not the original intent, but very cool thematically. It makes it worth taking for melee users. If not, then whip at least allows you to hit at ten feet, so would you be able to get to 5 feet range at straight forward then? I might not be able to change angles on my target, but distance is exactly what RtB does, would this operate normally?


Shiroi wrote:
Kinetic Fist + Ride the Blast

Ride the Blast doesn't work with Kinetic Fist, sorry!

Ride the Blast wrote:

Use this wild talent as part of activating a kinetic blast. You transform yourself into your element or energy and send yourself forth along with your kinetic blast. You appear at the end of the blast’s path, adjacent to the blast’s target (or final target for form infusions like chain lightning) or at the center of

the burst or spread for form infusions like explosion. This ability does not work with form infusions that involve melee attacks (such as kinetic blade) or that use a cone shape (such as spray).

Shadow Lodge

@tels, no idea why you quoted Kinetic Blade to me when I was asking about Ride the Blast specifically ;)


Shiroi wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm aware. It's still a really really low damage boost.

Look at it this way, Kinetic Blade is just as effective as your normal blast, but allows you some melee ability.

Kinetic Fist does less, but requires more, in the investment of Feats (Improved Unarmed Strike), Magic Items (Amulet of Mighty Fists), and stats (You now need a Str or Dex to be high to deal damage at all).

I don't consider it a bad damage boost at all. Look at a one level dip in monk of many styles, with snake and panther, using TWF because fist allows that, using dex because they're light weapons, you get double the 1/3 damage because you have twice as many attacks. Now include entangling, or as Mark said, dispelling. I have twice as many chances to inflict elemental effects as a whip does. In fact, if ride the blast is loosely interpreted, I could dance through a crowd popping up behind the guys I hit, to make the next target accessible, incurring attacks of opportunity to do so, which a moms loves to hear, and leaving a statue garden in my wake.

Let's basic math here...
3x100 for whip
6+AoO x(33+fist damage+aomf) for fist

Does it look so out of place now?

Yes.

As someone who loves the Snake/Panther build (the "Monk 5/Fighter 3" in the statblock of this primary alias used that), I'm all too aware of how unreliable a damage dealer it is. Especially when you're multiclassing with another 3/4 BaB class.

I would much rather simply grab Elemental Fist, less investment, similar benefit, more flexibility.

I don't mind the damage being reduced, since you can potentially use it more times per round (though Blade then one-ups you again by granting Reach with Kinetic Whip), but 1/3 of the dice is simply too few. 1/2 would be a better ratio.


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Oh yeah, guys.

Kinetic fist is garbage and kinetic blade is so effective that it essentially makes the default Kineticist a melee build.

Frankly, I think kinetic fist should be kept where it is in terms of power and then there could be an archetype that makes it more viable. Or perhaps there could be a feat chain that makes it viable.

Meanwhile, kinetic blade should be nerfed and then subsequently buffed in another archytype that gives up some sort of other useful ability that is in the standard class.


Rynjin wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm aware. It's still a really really low damage boost.

Look at it this way, Kinetic Blade is just as effective as your normal blast, but allows you some melee ability.

Kinetic Fist does less, but requires more, in the investment of Feats (Improved Unarmed Strike), Magic Items (Amulet of Mighty Fists), and stats (You now need a Str or Dex to be high to deal damage at all).

I don't consider it a bad damage boost at all. Look at a one level dip in monk of many styles, with snake and panther, using TWF because fist allows that, using dex because they're light weapons, you get double the 1/3 damage because you have twice as many attacks. Now include entangling, or as Mark said, dispelling. I have twice as many chances to inflict elemental effects as a whip does. In fact, if ride the blast is loosely interpreted, I could dance through a crowd popping up behind the guys I hit, to make the next target accessible, incurring attacks of opportunity to do so, which a moms loves to hear, and leaving a statue garden in my wake.

Let's basic math here...
3x100 for whip
6+AoO x(33+fist damage+aomf) for fist

Does it look so out of place now?

Yes.

As someone who loves the Snake/Panther build (the "Monk 5/Fighter 3" in the statblock of this primary alias used that), I'm all too aware of how unreliable a damage dealer it is. Especially when you're multiclassing with another 3/4 BaB class.

I would much rather simply grab Elemental Fist, less investment, similar benefit, more flexibility.

I don't mind the damage being reduced, since you can potentially use it more times per round (though Blade then one-ups you again by granting Reach with Kinetic Whip), but 1/3 of the dice is simply too few. 1/2 would be a better ratio.

See, to me 1/2 would mean I still deal the same damage as blade if I hit with all attacks, plus six unarmed strikes, and still have better attack of opportunity chances, and still on top of that get more substance opportunities. 1/2 damage + more goodies feels like too much when I'm doubling my attacks and adding more chances at full BAB too.

@ Excaliburproxy
I don't know that I'd say that. Each extra hit has 25% less and then 50% less chance to hit (only two at full with a haste effect tops, and maybe AoO) so the iteratives aren't very effective on most builds. For that trade, you plan to take a lot more damage yourself most of the time. I feel like a small tweak or two (can't be considered a touch attack, doesn't get the +1 off physical blades) would be plenty sufficient to balance this out even at it's strongest.


Question:

If I get the composite blast (magma) can I use that with kinetic blade? If not, could you guys allow that functionality? I would love to be able to wield magma swords... haha!

Also - There is a severe lack of Earth substance infusions. Why is this?

Suggestion

CRUSHING BLOW INFUSION
Element Earth; Type substance infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
Associated Blasts Earth, Magma

Saving Throw none
The kineticist knows how to increase the density of his infused blasts. Whenever a creature is dealt damage by your infused blast, that creature suffers a -2 AC penalty until the start of your next turn. At 6th level, this penalty increases to -4 AC. At 10th level, this penalty increases to -6. At 16th level, this penalty increases to -8.


Also under Kinetic Form, you MIGHT want to change things a little bit....

Element air, earth, fire, or water; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th
You can call forth your element and infuse it into your entire body.
You gain elemental qualities of a type of elemental that matches
any of the elements you possess as if by casting elemental
body I. By accepting 2 points of burn, until the next time you
recover burn, whenever you use kinetic form, you can instead
gain the benefits of elemental body II. When using kinetic form,
you never gain the earth glide, whirlwind, or vortex abilities unless the kineticist can use that ability without using kinetic form.

Otherwise if I get earth glide as my kineticist, I can't use it under elemental form which is what I suspect isn't the intent. I suspect the intent is that I do not GAIN earth glide from being an earth elemental.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Some ideas

POWER CONDUIT
Element Any; Type su; Level 4; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th

When this ability is activated, the kineticist remains in an intense focus. As a standard action, the kineticist can increase their constitution by 1 point per class level for a number of minutes equal to their unaltered con modifier. At the end of the ability, the kineticist falls unconscious for an hour.

This one - Not sure on how to word it effectively, but it gets past the fire based kineticist and having everything being just outright immune to fire.
ELEMENTAL DIFFUSION
Element Any; Type Substance Infusion; Level 4; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th

Many kineticists are capable of sucking the elemental force out of many elemental based creatures. If the type of creature shares an element with the type of element that the kineticist can utilize, the kineticist can deal an additional 50% damage to that creature, bypassing any current immunity or resistance that creature might have to the kineticists kinetic blast ability.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I think Earth should have an acid / touch attack option for a kinetic blast as well.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So here's another idea. Has anyone played WoW? In WOD, Thrall ends up causing the earth to form a hand and grapple/crush Garrosh Hellscream. Possibly something like that for Earth? Where they can create a hand or structure like that that can grapple enemies?

Archetype idea

Avatar of Nature

An Avatar of Nature is a force to be reckoned with. He focuses so much on an individual element that he ends up becoming the embodiment of that element himself.

Avatar
At level 1, an Avatar of Nature becomes the embodiment of his element. If the Avatar of Nature is aether, the Avatar of Nature gains +2 enhancement bonus to con and a +2 circumstantial bonus to attack when using a kinetic blast. If the Avatar of Nature is air, he gains +2 enhancement bonus to dex and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and 5 resistance to electricity. If the Avatar of Nature is Earth, the Avatar of Nature gains +2 enhancement bonus to con and +2 natural AC bonus that stacks with other natural armor bonuses and 5 resistance to acid damage. If the Avatar of Nature is fire, the Avatar of Nature gains +2 enhancement bonus to dex and +2 damage per damage dice with their kinetic blast and 5 resistance to fire damage. If the Avatar of Nature is water, the Avatar of Nature gains +2 enhancement bonus to dex and +2 enhancement bonus to con and 5 resistance to cold damage. At level 8, the bonuses to these abilities increases to +4 and the resistance is increased to 10 and at level 15 the bonuses to these abilities increases to +6 and the resistance increases to 20. This ability replaces the Wild Talent gained at levels 1, 8, and 15.

Augmentation
At level 3, an Avatar of Nature gains even more power and incentive to use the burn ability. The Avatar of Nature increases his attack and damage by 2 instead of 1 when using the Feel the Burn ability for every point that feel the burn provides. This ability modifies the Feel the Burn ability

Supreme Avatar
The Avatar of Natures creature type becomes Outsider and gains an immunity to the element of their type. Their kinetic blast deals 50% more damage than normal. stacking with any other damage increasing effects. This ability replaces Omnikinesis at 20th level.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

"Tandem Composite [Teamwork]
Whether you are shooting your flame into your partner's water to create steam or chilling your partner's air to create a snowstorm, you can combine elements together with another kineticist to deadly effect.
Prerequisites: Kineticist 1st
Benefit: You can spend a full-round action to ready a special action to activate a simple blast of your choice with another character within 15 feet who has this feat."

"Whether you are shooting your flame into your partner's water"

This part sounds very dirty....

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Another archetype idea

The Kineticist can create a bow and arrow out of the elements (Basically an archer kineticist)

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

A way to get kineticists more HP.

Feat
Incredible Physique
Add 1 hit point per con modifier each level the character gains. This ability is retrospective.

(utilizing maths)

At level 1, I would get the incredible Physique feat with 20 con

I would have 8 + 10 = 18 HP at level 1. Comparatively, the barbarian has 12 + 5 = 17 so the kineticist would have 1 additional HP compared with the barbarian or 3 additional when compared with fighters.

If I use 3 burn, I would then lose 3 HP and be on par with a fighter.

If this is shown to be too potent at low levels, we could add prereqs like toughness...

Assuming level 10,

153 HP by level 10 compared with a barbarian who has 125 HP on avg compared with a fighter who has 114 HP.

This would 'slightly' break a rule where the same stat can't be applied to an aspect of a char more than once, it could solve the issue. Either as a feat or individual ability.

Also this ability OR feat creates a natural curve for the kineticist so that the kineticist doesn't feel like the burn ability is percentile based that stays the same the higher the level..

For example... 1 burn point = Barbarian. 3 burn points = Fighter equiv

At level 10, it's 3 burn points = Barbarian, 4 burn points equals fighter.

At level 20, Fighter has 224. Barbarian has 245. Kineticist has 303 HP which allows the kineticist to sacrifice 6 burn or 8 burn to get down to that of a fighter or a barbarian.

This is assuming no more stats are added, but this allows a clear power curve the higher the level, which fixes the feeling of having a % base when using burn.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Another idea...

Just make burn deal 1/2 char level rather than char level per burn.


Hope you are open to comments and critiques, Verzen. All said with an intent to help, naturally.

Crushing blow is far too powerful and completely trivializes Magnetic. I do feel that there is room to make earth "build momentum" by reducing a targets AC vs you for so long as you maintain a barrage against them. Perhaps this could be a concept more balanced that would fit your playstyle? -2 AC vs you for each turn you have hit the target, maximum -6. 2 burn. Limit one target if multiple targets are struck by a given attack. This feels pretty reasonable to me.

Earth getting acid has been brought up Many times and most likely will not happen. Acid is not an element, was never a good partner for earth, and a touch attack for earth is as awkward as a physical blast for fire. These two get other things that work for them, such as the only touch composite blast, and a great DR rating. It is unlikely they will get additional blast types, though possible they will get other benefits to make up for it.

Many people have suggested burn being 1/2 level, this is also unlikely. Mark has made it clear the goal will be better ways to avoid burn, making the burn spectacular and worth the hp cost when used. This is a design preference to making burn less costly, but not as awe inspiring as the use of HP as a resource should be.

The avatar of nature is actually not dissimilar to what Mark has said will be native to the class, a scaling bonus to ability scores that you may assign as desired. This is to make the features of Kinetic Form that are most desirable, the stat changes, work for all builds and not require a size/form change. The resistances to elements is likely to be a talent, and the additional damage has been addressed in his updates by lowering the average level that a kineticist will be able to freely use things like meta/composite blasts without burn.

For elemental immunity, there will likely be ways for pure fire to get around elements. For everything else, physical attacks or alternate elements will be available by level 7, depending on your choices. I don't know of any straight physical immune creatures (I'm sure someone will be able to find one, but it isn't nearly as common) so Earth and TK are fine in that regards.

There may be a better ranged archetype, but I doubt it will be directly themed off archery. That feels like a neat way to reskin your blast though, nobody has ever said that your blast had to be a sphere of elemental material. Theme away, and enjoy the creative freedom of a world with no true stylistic limitations!

I do feel like Earth should have a grapple type option. Fortunately, if you build feats that way, you can make grapple checks as part of your attack action. A melee earth kin can use a blade or whip to strike, strike, then grapple if they choose using their normal attack routine. This again relies on reflavoring the grapple actions to be using the earth to hold your foe. Perhaps a bonus to CMD/CMB for Earth would be thematically appropriate, and facilitate this build? Grappling at a distance is a pretty nasty ability, I don't know if I would go that far unless the grapple was limited to not dealing damage, and kept you still as well. Beyond that, check Entangling Infusion. In turn one you begin surrounding them with earth, in turn two you "grapple" them by encasing them in stone. It's not complete, but far more balanced.


Shiroi wrote:

See, to me 1/2 would mean I still deal the same damage as blade if I hit with all attacks, plus six unarmed strikes, and still have better attack of opportunity chances, and still on top of that get more substance opportunities. 1/2 damage + more goodies feels like too much when I'm doubling my attacks and adding more chances at full BAB too.

It's a tradeoff. Potentially more damage, at the cost of several Feats, and assuming you can max your AoOs (unlikely), versus 10 foot reach and potentially attacking Touch AC.


Rynjin wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

See, to me 1/2 would mean I still deal the same damage as blade if I hit with all attacks, plus six unarmed strikes, and still have better attack of opportunity chances, and still on top of that get more substance opportunities. 1/2 damage + more goodies feels like too much when I'm doubling my attacks and adding more chances at full BAB too.

It's a tradeoff. Potentially more damage, at the cost of several Feats, and assuming you can max your AoOs (unlikely), versus 10 foot reach and potentially attacking Touch AC.

Attacking touch ac I agree is the biggest difference. Touch ac is what makes hitting with all three iteratives a likely event, which makes it, to me, far more powerful. I would have only allowed physical hits to be used in melee. Not that it couldn't deal elemental damage like cold, but that it would need to hit regular ac like a normal sword.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Being a fire based kineticist, at lvl 8, I can deal around 24d6 damage in a single turn without taking con damage into consideration if I am doing this right...

Using the blade infusion, I am sitting at 8d6 blue flame damage as an infusion to a sword, boots of haste along with two other attacks equates with 8d6 + 8d6 + 8d6 all hitting touch which is very likely to hit.

..... How comparable is this to a lvl 8 gunslinger? (Never played one)

Dark Archive

Verzen wrote:

Being a fire based kineticist, at lvl 8, I can deal around 24d6 damage in a single turn without taking con damage into consideration if I am doing this right...

Using the blade infusion, I am sitting at 8d6 blue flame damage as an infusion to a sword, boots of haste along with two other attacks equates with 8d6 + 8d6 + 8d6 all hitting touch which is very likely to hit.

..... How comparable is this to a lvl 8 gunslinger? (Never played one)

You could not do the blue flame infusion more then once per round as you can only except 2 burn per round at that level. so it would be 8d6+4d6+4d6.


brad2411 wrote:
Verzen wrote:

Being a fire based kineticist, at lvl 8, I can deal around 24d6 damage in a single turn without taking con damage into consideration if I am doing this right...

Using the blade infusion, I am sitting at 8d6 blue flame damage as an infusion to a sword, boots of haste along with two other attacks equates with 8d6 + 8d6 + 8d6 all hitting touch which is very likely to hit.

..... How comparable is this to a lvl 8 gunslinger? (Never played one)

You could not do the blue flame infusion more then once per round as you can only except 2 burn per round at that level. so it would be 8d6+4d6+4d6.

Indeed, he is correct. I suspect a 14 - 18 Con, so I would say you average between 62 (14 con) to 68 (18 con) damage each round, assuming you hit with all of your attacks.

Gunslingers will be averaging less damage at this level, but in a few more levels, they'll be able to put out many more attacks than you will, which increases their over-all damage.

It is, of course, hard to say with any certainty what the average gunslinger damage is because of build variance, but I would suspect that average DPR for a Gunslinger at this point to be sitting around 20 - 30 points of damage per round.

Designer

Let's please never ever compare anything else in the game to an optimized gunslinger's DPR (Tels, you totally weren't with your estimate, but others earlier in the thread were). That way madness lies.

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