Telekinetic:
The test period is coming to a close and I wanted to get one last say in my opinion of the class. It's top-notch, with the exception of skills which are far too few... I'm so glad that there's a Psi system where the powers don't look/feel like spells.
My initial review was too harsh because I played a bit stupidly at too high a level, tearing my character apart with Burn too early into the game. As long as you are conservative with burn, there is no game-play problem with the class, though I think Kinetic Cover does a lot more than intended (and should likely be modified down a bit with specific rules instead of "Total Cover"). Not that I'm complaining, I love my super-stealth, charge-breaking, spell-inhibiting Cover. :P But as a 1st level ability, I've a feeling it's meant to be something less... :/ (Please don't take away my super-stealth though. :P)
My 2nd review was more spot on, it's a great class. However, the more I got to think about it, the more I think me enamoration with the class had me ignoring some "maybe too powerful" things. Primarily, damage. As an 8th level character, my effortless and steady outpouring of 4d6+11 and 4d6+5(Touch) felt like too much... and at the same time, inadequate.
I don't know... seems like as a TK I shouldn't be picking up objects and throwing them, but rather just pushing, tripping, etc... it's telekinesis. I mean, if you could invisibly push things around with your mind, you're not gonna look around for something to throw... you're gonna push and nudge the enemy and occasionally throwing the enemy (Foe Throw is awesome).
I realize this is just personal opinion, and I'm honestly happy to pour out damage on turns I'm not using Kinetic Cover. :P But... I think our "blast" shouldn't be damaging... **ducks for cover**
It makes perfect sense for the other elements (cept maybe water...), but for a TK, it feels like we're modified to fit the mold of the elem-kinetics. Too late to go back to the drawing board or anything, but I think it would have been better if we were doing Combat Maneuvers instead of damage.
Someone playing an obvious elemental type character expects he'll be doing lightning damage, cold damage, fire damage, blunt damage, etc... but thematically, it felt lacking for a TK. And... if we want to do damage, at 7th level we can pick up another element... (Or introduce an earlier Wild Talent that lets you do damage in addition to your CM perhaps).
Point being, I didn't really feel like I was a Telekinetic (though I do love my TK Haul and used it every chance I got) when I was slamming objects into people (pouch of caltrops truthfully). I felt like a Telekinetic when I was Disarming and Tripping them through our misunderstood (then House Ruled) use of Telekinetic Finesse and Telekinetic Haul.
You know that there is a telekinetic maneuvers wild talent, right?
Of course, but that not only covers far more maneuvers than the simple Disarm/Trip, but comes far later in the game than people I know play. (We play E8). And, while I'm in no way trying to suggest this release should be focused on the E6/E8 crowd, I do think despite our way of playing, that low level Combat Maneuvers in place of damage is a good idea. :)
I think the damage should be replaced with Disarm/Trip (maybe include some minor damage for tripping). That a 4th level Wild Talent should include Bull Rush. Higher levels could/would include Grapple and/or Dirty Tricks (pulling someone's pants down). More focus on the Maneuvers, less so on the damage since getting people prone, etc tends to be better than damage in the right party.
I see. I prefer E6 myself, but nobody else I play with at the moment will try it.
Yeah, I think there is a general "gating" problem with the wild talents. 1st level talents mostly suck on their own (I would love to know the details of how you made kinetic cover awesome--I think it looks promising but it has been nearly universally panned by everyone else. And I don't get how it helps with stealth when it specifies that the tk version is see through). 6th levels are good, but you only get 2. 10th levels are choked with awesome, but you get very few before the typical game dies out.
I'd be down for an Archetype.
mpl, it says "Translucent", which is not the same as "Transparent". According to a google search, you can't see distinct forms through something translucent. It's pretty much the same as fog or smoke, both being translucent, both providing concealment.
It also gives the role of "total cover" from one direction, and the "total cover" rules say that you can hide if you have "total cover".
The difference is "line of sight", which prevents blind sense, etc from seeing you. Non Earth cover is still penetrable by other means.
It also mentions fogged glass, and you can see silhouettes through that, and most people would notice a blurry wall anyway, I think. It's cool that it worked for you, but there's no way my GM would let that fly, nor would I allow it in most circumstances.
Why not? The rules clearly allow for it (under Total Cover). You're telekinetically causing movement (like the waves of heat above a warm piece of metal) which is not only distracting, but offers enough concealment to at least try a stealth roll.
It's not like you're immediately invisible because you're behind the cover. You just get a chance to roll stealth if you want to use this distraction to hide. What's so game breaking about getting a chance to make a stealth roll when the rules clearly allow it? o.O
Precisely... Hence my stating that it is too powerful for 1st level. :P
I don't think it's too powerful and find it silly that ice can't be made opaque, but nitpicking the rules text and the meaning of translucent would not get you anywhere with any GM I know, including myself. The description would not have mentioned it if it were not intending one kind of wall to be see through and another not.
And honestly, if it does look like blurry smoked glass or whatever, having that pop up in a room would immediately draw everyone's notice to the 5x5 wall of blurry weirdness that appeared out of nowhere. Even if you could hide, the wall couldn't be hidden.
What mpl said. What I said wasn't as clear in text as it seemed in my head.
That is not nit picking the rules, thats just abiding by the rules. Nothing says you cant, and Total Cover has always granted a chance to hide. Why on earth would anyone see this rule and just decide that in this one situation, total cover doesnt give you a chance to hide, but all other covers work fine? and what do you mean that the actual meaning of the word doesnt matter? are we discussing rules, or a preconception of what you thought the talent did?
Because a blurry wall just popped up out of no where, and even if its creation wasn't directly witnessed, such a thing would be very out of place just about anywhere. Nobody is saying you can't hide behind the wall, though I personally think a translucent wall would show some evidence of a creature or object behind it, even if blurred.
Edit:For the mental image I have of the effect, imagine the effect as summoning a semi-transparent shower curtain, and then someone hiding behind it.
I know that I'm late to the discussion, but I just wanted to add this about the pyrokineticist's Searing Flesh ability. My main problem with it is as you accept burn to make the ability more effective, you are actually decreasing the number of times it will 'activate' before you fall unconsious.
Think about it. If at high levels you accept 4 points of burn to increase searing flesh's effectiveness, you potentially have 80 fewer hit points to increase the damage per hit by 4d6. The thing is, when you combine that with the burn you'll be inflicting upon yourself to power your other abilities you'll be lucky to survive a few hits before you go down!
That's the real problem with Searing Flesh. The more burn you inflict upon yourself, the fewer times Searing Flesh will actually be able to activate since its effectiveness depends on you being hit. On some days if you get really unlucky you might get hit *once*, deal 7d6 points to the attacker (if he used a natural weapon, if he isn't immune to fire, if he fails the saving throw) and then go unconsious.
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As the playtest reaches it's end, I will leave my final thoughts on the kineticist:
The kineticist is a great idea, a class that fill a long awaited niche. The resemblance to many iconic characters in many references, may turn the actual exercise of playing the class a bit unsatisfying, as it does not have the flexibility to produce certain themes. The melee weapon wielding kineticist, or the brawler, or the mystic and several themes that permeate the imaginary surrounding the idea of telekinesis are at least clunky when not impossible. The class lacks options: It is possible to build a cleric in almost anyway: melee, unarmed, ranged, healer, blaster, tanker, skill monkey, all effective and fun. The same has yet to be made about the kineticist.
This is a class focused around combat, that has average HP base, BaB, no type of special saves, no resistances or protection against similar powers. It has one of the lowest pools of proficiencies in weapons, armor and skills, with no fluff mechanic.
This class has control over the elements but cannot perform what can be done with cantrips, no rules cover what can be made with that element control outside combat.
The powers that can provide some utility or fun outside combat must be selected from the same pool that is needed for combat effectiveness, witch leads to the unfun choice between being effective or being interesting. Most of those powers could be joined into one element manipulation class feature.
The class is weak in power. It can be hard to balance something that does not exist yet in a system. Casters at high level can pretty much rip the reality and change it according to their needs, many times a day. The kineticist should be able to do greater stuff in his own field: produce tsunamis, earthquakes, tornadoes, conflagrations, move buildings. That's what a high level kineticist should be able to do, and he's not even close right now. It's not just about damage or precision, it about the ability to change the world and the course of great battles.
While his attacks increase with level in options and damage, the defenses stay almost always the same, and weak. Any caster can have an all day defense at no cost as middle levels, actually many magic defenses at once, paying almost nothing. The kineticist's defenses must be able to compete with those, as they suffer similar limitations.
About the theme: the esoteric feel of the class has yet to be captured. There should be some mystic wild talents, universal for all kineticists providing what the constant contact with other planes of existence can give: aura reading, physiology sense, telepathy, supernatural awareness, contact with ethereal or astral spirits, among others. The class fells very brutish in contact with that higher reality and not "occult" enough.
I am aware that it's a lot of work, and that balancing a class without the right amount of thought can have unforeseen consequences, but for all I have seen in my games my opinion is this: The kineticist has lots of room for improvements, as it lags behind every other class in power. This room should be used to give it more options and mastery over its powers, reaching reality altering peaks on it's own field. Alternative combat methods will not unbalance the class as it would use only one at a time. Do not be afraid to increase power.
That is not nit picking the rules, thats just abiding by the rules. Nothing says you cant, and Total Cover has always granted a chance to hide. Why on earth would anyone see this rule and just decide that in this one situation, total cover doesnt give you a chance to hide, but all other covers work fine? and what do you mean that the actual meaning of the word doesnt matter? are we discussing rules, or a preconception of what you thought the talent did?
Either it is see through and you can't hide behind it, or it isn't see through and it's super obvious that a blurry wall popped into existence. That's the issue.
I also think calling it total cover was sloppy. If they wanted it see through (and I think they did) it should have said that it breaks line of effect, instead.
I do want to give one suggestion for a defense for pyrokineticists: one of the coolest fire based defensive abilities that I have seen was in the anime Witch Hunter Robin. The way Robin used bits of fire to precisely burn down bullets before they could hit her was awsome.
Maybe an ability that lets you use fire (or some other element) to 'parry' an attack would be a nice thematic ability for kineticists?
Total cover is mostly fine, tower shields can do the same. For further clarity though, the translucent covers do not block line of sight according to the talent description, so they ARE clear enough to see and distinguish targets through.
You know, transparent is a much more common word than translucent, and a much clearer meaning. If they meant it to be transparent, I'm of the opinion they would have said so. However, the "description" is not the rule. The rule was "total cover" but no "line of sight".
We've clarified what "total cover" includes, inclusive the ability to "hide".
Line of Sight is apparently the questionable rule. Line of Sight indicates a direct, unimpeded line to a target. It's even oft recommended that a string could be symbolic of LoS. So, the non-earth barriers simply do not block or impede that line. The difference? When you throw up a Fire or Water or Aether or Wind Field, you hinder visibility, but not other senses such as blindsense.
But, why use the word translucent, when transparent is so much easier and more common if they meant see through.
But... back to the actual point... nobody here is saying that when a Kinetic Field goes up, everything on the other side is invisible. Quite the opposite... all that's being said is that visibility is hindered "enough" that one has the right to make a Stealth check if one wants to "hide". Nothing in any of the rules or readings implies otherwise.
And I'm actually a bit on your side in this... I think we "shouldn't" have that ability at 1st level, hence my original post. The objective here has not been to convince you that we should be hiding behind kinetic cover. It's to show that the rules allow it. If that's not the intent, this is the testing stage where they can decide to reword it, remove the "total cover", change the level, or whatever. Fighting me about schematics during the testing stage in order to keep something around that is obviously going to have similar issues in the future is counter-productive.
No, I think you're missing the implication. Who cares that you can hide behind something that appears from nowhere? They know someone is there since this translucent wall just appeared. How does hiding benefit you in this circumstance?
If I use mage hand to hold up a sheet to give me total cover there is still a giant flying sheet broadcasting my location.
And just an FYI... I think they intentionally used the word "translucent" to help justify "total cover". It hinders visibility just enough to allow a stealth roll.
You also seem to be confusing line of sight with line of effect. The string is definitely a good reference for line of effect, but line of sight explicitly has to do with seeing targets. Total cover does, I think, block line of effect.
*sigh* That square is anywhere within 30' of you. It's not in the same square as you.
I agree with everything you just said Heladriell.
This class(and most the others) really needs a second playtest. So many things I would like this class to able to do and yet it can't even make a good Carrie or even come close to Tetsuo from the movie Akira:(
I was wrong. The Talent moves actual matter into the way, not some wavy energy. A Sheet of Water, a sheet of flame, a sheet of debris (leaves, dust, dirt, etc). That would be a good definition of translucent. You're not necessarily creating a solid wall of matter, more like a blind of foliage (which would offer concealment of at least 20%, and thus a hide chance).
*sigh* That square is anywhere within 30' of you. It's not in the same square as you.
Ok, but I still don't understand how this helps you be stealthy. Maybe an extended example of how you stealthed around using kinetic cover would clear everything up.
And kinetic cover specifically references tk's cover as a wall of force, not random junk laying around.
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*sigh* That square is anywhere within 30' of you. It's not in the same square as you.Ok, but I still don't understand how this helps you be stealthy. Maybe an extended example of how you stealthed around using kinetic cover would clear everything up.
And kinetic cover specifically references tk's cover as a wall of force, not random junk laying around.
I believe he's referring to using it to create cover farther away from himself but still interrupting line of sight, making it less obvious someone was hiding behind it.
I believe he's referring to using it to create cover farther away from himself but still interrupting line of sight, making it less obvious someone was hiding behind it.*sigh* That square is anywhere within 30' of you. It's not in the same square as you.Ok, but I still don't understand how this helps you be stealthy. Maybe an extended example of how you stealthed around using kinetic cover would clear everything up.
And kinetic cover specifically references tk's cover as a wall of force, not random junk laying around.
And I don't understand how that would actually do anything. Hence, looking for an example.
The talent specifies "elemental matter", and telekinetic force is one of the listed examples of "matter". In most circumstances it would still be obviously out of place, and in any circumstance it doesn't block line of sight any more than a clean glass window would. Cover allows for stealth checks, but the cover itself doesn't get a stealth check as far as I know.
I agree, an example would probably help greatly in clearing this up.
Any more than a clean glass window? I disagree. It would be like a translucent glass window, the type in front of most showers or their doors. Translucent clearly defines itself as seeing nothing more than vague outline of shapes.
However, and once again... that's description. The rule states "total cover", the descriptions are to illustrate why the rules are there. You have total cover, doesn't matter how you explain the method used to achieve it (though the use of the word translucent does that very well).
As for my example, I most commonly placed the wall directly in front of the enemy as a delayed action to stop either a charge (or just movement) or spell being cast. Then stealthed on my move action. It was great for making sure our side got the actual charge in, so not like the enemy was looking for me. However, this has no bearing on the rules themselves. And since most of these encounters were surprise-isn, and I wasn't moving at half speed (stealth), getting stealth early into the encounter was very nice.
Admittedly, with it being one side of one square, not the most effective tool vs multiples unless you did it right in front of yourself, but you could do it directly in front of yourself, stealth check and half your movement (or even full speed if you don't mind the -5).
My point with the clean glass window is that "does not block line of sight" means that line of sight is not blocked. The telekinetic cover doesn't block line of sight, and neither does a glass window.
I'll let others debate the stealth rules, but it seems to me that if someone has line of sight and knows you're there somehow, then you can't use stealth because they can still observe you.
Doesn't matter. It gives "total cover" (and is translucent, not clear). That's the rules, and total cover, even if behind a see through clear piece of glass, gives you the chance to hide.
Both the rules, and the description support a "chance" to make a stealth roll to hide. I admit the "line of sight" is confusing, but all it takes, according to the rules under "Stealth" is any sort of momentary distraction (such as using Bluff, or perhaps, a wall of debris popping up in front of them) to be granted a chance to use stealth to hide.
However, at this point the discussion is becoming too circular and I'm just repeating myself. So, I will step aside and let you guys counter without the benefit of a reprisal. :)
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I'd be down for an Archetype.
mpl, it says "Translucent", which is not the same as "Transparent". According to a google search, you can't see distinct forms through something translucent. It's pretty much the same as fog or smoke, both being translucent, both providing concealment.
It also gives the role of "total cover" from one direction, and the "total cover" rules say that you can hide if you have "total cover".
The difference is "line of sight", which prevents blind sense, etc from seeing you. Non Earth cover is still penetrable by other means.
Transparent is a subset of translucent.
Translucency is an optical quality that can cover a wide range or values, from marble, jade and human skin to the earth's atmosphere. All it means is some quantity of light penetrates the materials surface before being reflected back.
Opaque, by contrast, means light is reflected at the materials surface. The two optical qualities can easily be compared using paint. Opaque paint is flat. A satin finish (translucent) paint, however, has visual depth. While both paints can be exactly the same hue, they are visibly very different.
To put in game terms; fog is translucent. Light penetrates the fog and some of that light is reflected back towards its source. The thicker the fog, the less light is able to completely penetrate. In Pathfinder, you are unable to see opponents more than 5' away in fog.
I wish Pathfinder would stop using the word translucent. It is too broad a term to have any meaning in a rules context.
As for my example, I most commonly placed the wall directly in front of the enemy as a delayed action to stop either a charge (or just movement) or spell being cast. Then stealthed on my move action. It was great for making sure our side got the actual charge in, so not like the enemy was looking for me. However, this has no bearing on the rules themselves. And since most of these encounters were surprise-isn, and I wasn't moving at half speed (stealth), getting stealth early into the encounter was very nice.
I understand that it gets hard to have similar conversations with two different people. Anyway, let me try to clarify my question. I am accepting (dubiously) that you can hide behind the kkinetic cover no matter what sort it is. The ability to hide is not relevant to my confusion. What I don't understand is how throwing up this barrier in their face and then stealthing helps you. Give me a more detailed example. You throw this barrier in front of them. Then you stealth. Where do you go? What did the room look like? What did the monster do in response?
Like I said at the beginning of the debate, it's great that it works at your table. I'm sure there are uses for that tactic. My point was that none of my GMs would allow it, and I would not either, so at best, expect table variation, and then I tried to explain the reasons why it wouldn't work in my group.
And just to clarify, since the tk and water versions explicitly do not break line of sight, you would have to deal with this clause of the stealth rules: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth."
If their line of sight is not blocked, then they can see you. Therefore, you cannot use Stealth. But I don't care as much about that as I do figuring out how stealthing behind a very obviously created barrier would be of use, so just pretend I think you can hide behind something translucent for the purposes of the example.
MPL, the next line then expands on it with:
"Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. "
A translucent barrier that acts as "total cover" would surely qualify as a momentary distraction (despite the already having found cover that would grant you the stealth check). As for the purpose and where I go, depends on the situation of course, almost always behind some form of cover if possible, if not I try to blend into the background with my Cloak of Elvenkind.
The reason is because I'm a glass canon who is wearing light armour with an AC of 15 in a group that has an average AC of 23. My defence mechanism is stealth and hiding. When/If they fix/change Kinetic Cover, I'll understand why of course, but it will hurt me to lose such a valuable tool. Admittedly, I'm not always in a position where KC will help me stealth, but most times I was able to find a square where raising the cover got me a chance to at least try to stealth.
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Two things:
1) I'm with blackbloodtroll in that, while more elegant, a unified definition of wielding would be disastrous, as several abilities were clearly written with conflicting definitions. So then, to do a case-by-case, for kinetic blade and whip, you are not "wielding" them in such a way that you can use Martial Versatility.
2) You can see through the translucent covers. They aren't perfectly transparent, but they don't provide concealment or block line of sight. Also, to the question of uses of kinetic cover, I have heard, just not much on these forums, of powerful uses of kinetic cover involving readied actions. I've also seen a geo who liked to block every direction in a room with multiple entrances save the one we were about to take, to give an early alert if enemies were sneaking up behind us, since they probably couldn't smash the cover down quietly.
MPL, the next line then expands on it with:
"Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. "
A translucent barrier that acts as "total cover" would surely qualify as a momentary distraction (despite the already having found cover that would grant you the stealth check).
I completely disagree, because line of sight is neve blocked, but that's cool if your GM let you get away with that. It's not totally relevant, I don't think, though, because I don't find hiding here to be especially beneficial.
As for the purpose and where I go, depends on the situation of course, almost always behind some form of cover if possible, if not I try to blend into the background with my Cloak of Elvenkind.
This is why I was kind of looking for a more detailed example with a room plan and whatever. That said, if you could get to cover, you didn't need the kinetic cover at all--you could have just moved to cover and stealthed there.
And the cloak of elvenkind just grants a bonus to Stealth. There's no special ability to just blend into the background. You need cover or concealment to hide. Hiding without that is a special ability called Hide in Plain Sight. If the barrier goes down and you're not behind cover (that you could have stealthed behind to begin with), you're visible. Period.
So, unless some critical details would clear this up, it looks like either the kinetic cover didn't really help your stealth or your group wasn't running stealth as written (which is fine, houserules are good things--they just aren't good judges for things being overpowered).
The reason is because I'm a glass canon who is wearing light armour with an AC of 15 in a group that has an average AC of 23. My defence mechanism is stealth and hiding.
Why is your AC so terrible!? You're a Dex focused class! Since you had at least two wild talents I am going to say you were at least beyond starting cash, so you should absolutely have a chain shirt and +4 dex or even studded leather and +5. With a horrible point buy, I guess +3 dex might be possible. But that's a minimum of 17 AC. Then, on top of that, you should have a masterwork buckler (no acp and keep your free hand) for another +1. How could you have 15?
I have 22 ac on my level 3 hydrokineticist (best in the party). I know I have a shroud of water, but if you just replaced that with a buckler, I would still have 20 (still would be best in the party).
Two things:
1) I'm with blackbloodtroll in that, while more elegant, a unified definition of wielding would be disastrous, as several abilities were clearly written with conflicting definitions. So then, to do a case-by-case, for kinetic blade and whip, you are not "wielding" them in such a way that you can use Martial Versatility.
2) You can see through the translucent covers. They aren't perfectly transparent, but they don't provide concealment or block line of sight. Also, to the question of uses of kinetic cover, I have heard, just not much on these forums, of powerful uses of kinetic cover involving readied actions. I've also seen a geo who liked to block every direction in a room with multiple entrances save the one we were about to take, to give an early alert if enemies were sneaking up behind us, since they probably couldn't smash the cover down quietly.
Thanks, Mark. I haven't used kinetic cover myself yet, but I look forward to it. I think it has lots of potential. Heck, I can, at the least, create bridges wherever we want to go (albeit slowly). I just didn't think it was especially practical for stealth.
That said, any chance for an answer on the swarm issue a few pages back?
Excellent point on the AC. For some reason (just having noticed), I never equipped my Chain Shirt and was using my HeroLab for my stats. :( At least my horrific AC makes sense now... it was because I'm an idiot. :/ As a Wizard player (Sylph Air Wizard) by default, it just never occurred to me that my armour wasn't on... just thought I had the same AC as my unarmored wizard. Will have to get use to this more-martial class some more. But now I'm starting at 1st level, we only ran 8th because it was for testing and the rest of the party is 8th level (though as E8's, they're well past 8th level in feat count :P)
2) You can see through the translucent covers. They aren't perfectly transparent, but they don't provide concealment or block line of sight. Also, to the question of uses of kinetic cover, I have heard, just not much on these forums, of powerful uses of kinetic cover involving readied actions. I've also seen a geo who liked to block every direction in a room with multiple entrances save the one we were about to take, to give an early alert if enemies were sneaking up behind us, since they probably couldn't smash the cover down quietly.
You should undoubtedly, then, edit the text to either remove the "total cover" and replace it with what aspects of total cover are used, or clearly state that the cover does not provide a stealth check for those elements.
Hey. Where in the rules does it explicitly state that you need to pay the burn cost of a wild talent in order to use it? I mean: it is obviously true but I am not sure that it is ever said explicitly in the text (in either wild talents or burn).
Question about kinetic healer, sorry if it's been asked/answered already; assuming you have multiple blasts, which determines the amount healed?
Question about kinetic healer, sorry if it's been asked/answered already; assuming you have multiple blasts, which determines the amount healed?
I would assume the best one that qualifies, so, water or tk (which is identical) or cold if you have neither.
I doubt you could composite blast heal, though it might be cool if you could.