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Honestly, I'm not sold on the need to nerf Vital Strike + Kinetic Blade. It can do solid damage... if you're willing to get in the other guy's face, knowing that as a general rule you don't have the same defenses as other classes and are a lot easier to knock into the dirt.
Actually, Kineticists (as currently written) have higher AC because they don't have to spend resources to upgrade their weapon. Geokineticists also have DR that scales faster than the Invulnerable Rager, and Hydrokineticists have even more ludicrous AC, so... there's that.
I feel like a lot of people are harshing on kinetic blade too much. It costs enough burn to use that ranged blasts can make up most of the difference.
The only slight concern is the synergy coming out of an all day huge elemental with double reach and high dexterity. Its also very cool that you can control a space twelve tiles across with combat reflexes and similar feats.
Uh... You are aware that Kinetic Blade costs no burn at level 5 right? And then Whip is free at level 8. Infusion Specialization! It's a thing.
Kinetic Fist + MoMS 1 level dip + Pummeling Style/Snake Style Hydrokineticist?
Out of curiosity-- has anyone patched together an archer Kineticist or are they working on one?
Don't want to do work that's already been done.
One of my first posts in this thread compared a kineticist archer and gunner to one just using their blasts. I will admit, I was a little bit lazy with it. I didn't actually buy items, just kind of assumed a few. And I didn't use amazing abilities like Kinetic Form. But, it's a good place to start.
Honestly, I'm not sold on the need to nerf Vital Strike + Kinetic Blade. It can do solid damage... if you're willing to get in the other guy's face, knowing that as a general rule you don't have the same defenses as other classes and are a lot easier to knock into the dirt.
The problem is where that leaves us at range. I don't like "just let Vital Strike work at range too" because range doesn't require us to stand in front of the dragon praying we don't piss him off.
Perhaps up Fist/Blade/Whips' burn costs by 1 each? Makes it easier to Empower at range. That's a bit harsh though...
Uh, I would say one of the greatest strengths of the Kineticist is survivability. First of all, they don't need to spend anything on a weapon (which is the greatest expense in most budget's), and there are only a limited number of feats that can even apply to your blasts, so you have more money and feats to spend on defenses. Then, there are the defenses:
Water's defense is amazing (I posted a level 10 Kineticist for Shiroi's challenge in this thread with 38 AC). It even lets you save MORE money on either armor or a shield, allowing for more defensive items. When this becomes 20% concealment, too...go water!
Aether gets an absolute steal, trading HP for regenerating THP. I guess if you have rapid encounters, it's not so strong, but if you can get enough time between fights, it pays for itself in just two hits across two encounters.
Earth's DR is really awesome early, but quickly becomes of questionable use. You need to get hit a number of times equal to your level to justify spending Burn on it, otherwise it's a net loss of HP. (so, three hits at level 3 and it was a great investment, but those same hits at level 6 are a loss. Plus, it's not X/-, it's X/Adamantine, which can be bypassed at higher levels with moderate frequency.
Air...well, ok, Air is kind of on the weak side, but it stacks on top regular Armor, and with the early access to flight (6th) and a perfect flight speed coming at 10th with extra Dex attached and double the range of other kineticists, the miss chance should generally apply to the things that can threaten an Air kineticist.
Fire blows. I think we all know that. It requires you to get hit and does nothing to protect you at all. On top of that, in order to do even remotely decent damage, it takes a lot of health that does not pay off (you need to get hit to trigger it, and you are much less capable of taking a hit because of the Burn).
Can I also add that it's awkward? It seems like it's intended to scale up like weapon damage, but it's not really clear and the rest of the class works with Xd6s, not 1d6->1d8->2d6, etc. It might also be nice to include the damage upgrade chart itself. You already list the first 4 steps, why not the last four possible? Oh, crap, and I just noticed for the first time they can Reflex negates the damage! Horrible!
Where was I going with this? Oh, right, except for Fire and a little bit Air, Kineticists have excellent defenses, and I would consider that one of their greatest strengths. Melee is definitely not too dangerous for them.
Question:
From what im able to gather the psychic classes are 'never EVER use in high level play, you will only help people kill you'. Dipping for whatever powers you want, then multiclassing into something else before you literally cant use your powers without tearing a flaming chunk of HP out of yourself. Seems the proper way, but with paizos 'no multiclass ever get out of here you munchkin' stance, that seems odd.
Has anyone run proper math proving otherwise or is that the case? Because eating 20/40/60 etc hp on your basic 'im not a monk/rogue' class boost seems completely unusable for someone who doesnt have a con-pumping barbarians pool of hp.
Like, high con, toughness, and autolocked fcbs in hp still wouldnt be able to keep up with that.
Question:
From what im able to gather the psychic classes are 'never EVER use in high level play, you will only help people kill you'. Dipping for whatever powers you want, then multiclassing into something else before you literally cant use your powers without tearing a flaming chunk of HP out of yourself. Seems the proper way, but with paizos 'no multiclass ever get out of here you munchkin' stance, that seems odd.
Has anyone run proper math proving otherwise or is that the case? Because eating 20/40/60 etc hp on your basic 'im not a monk/rogue' class boost seems completely unusable for someone who doesnt have a con-pumping barbarians pool of hp.Like, high con, toughness, and autolocked fcbs in hp still wouldnt be able to keep up with that.
Average HP for a d8 is equal to 5 + Con + 1 (FCB) and probably + 1 (Toughness). With Con as a secondary stat, it'll probably be +5-6 at 10th, and +7-8 or so by 20th. Using enough Burn to trigger Feel the Burn just eats a little bit of your Con mod there. So, for a level 10, you're looking at about 10 HP/level.
The average d8 class will have a +2-3 Con, most likely something better to spend FCB on, and no Toughness. So, 7-8 HP per level. Fighters are desperate for skills, and they likely only have +3-4 Con, so they're probably sitting at 10 HP/level too.
Plus, I just made a big long post about how good Kineticist defenses are.
So, yeah, the only people likely to out hit point Kineticists are Scarred Witch Doctors and Barbarians.
Oh, and they actually aren't losing real HP, just taking nonlethal, so they won't die if they exceed it, just fall unconscious and stable.
So, I was reading through Sammy T's play testing and he brought up a point that I'd agree with. Hoping that kineticsts will be versatile enough that multiple players using a kineticist could each play differently. Not just blast or bash.
That in mind, I was curious, any chance we'll see some sort of archetype that somehow focuses on the utility powers I'm sure are we'll be getting in the final product, over shooting and bashing? Don't get me wrong, I love the blasting and don't mind the bashing, but something that would allow me to play with the elements as a battlefield controller would be amazing. Any chance we could get a bit of a tease as to a few of the archetypes we might expect for the class?
Question:
From what im able to gather the psychic classes are 'never EVER use in high level play, you will only help people kill you'. Dipping for whatever powers you want, then multiclassing into something else before you literally cant use your powers without tearing a flaming chunk of HP out of yourself. Seems the proper way, but with paizos 'no multiclass ever get out of here you munchkin' stance, that seems odd.
Has anyone run proper math proving otherwise or is that the case? Because eating 20/40/60 etc hp on your basic 'im not a monk/rogue' class boost seems completely unusable for someone who doesnt have a con-pumping barbarians pool of hp.Like, high con, toughness, and autolocked fcbs in hp still wouldnt be able to keep up with that.
Average HP for a d8 is equal to 5 + Con + 1 (FCB) and probably + 1 (Toughness). With Con as a secondary stat, it'll probably be +5-6 at 10th, and +7-8 or so by 20th. Using enough Burn to trigger Feel the Burn just eats a little bit of your Con mod there. So, for a level 10, you're looking at about 10 HP/level.
The average d8 class will have a +2-3 Con, most likely something better to spend FCB on, and no Toughness. So, 7-8 HP per level. Fighters are desperate for skills, and they likely only have +3-4 Con, so they're probably sitting at 10 HP/level too.
Plus, I just made a big long post about how good Kineticist defenses are.
So, yeah, the only people likely to out hit point Kineticists are Scarred Witch Doctors and Barbarians.
Oh, and they actually aren't losing real HP, just taking nonlethal, so they won't die if they exceed it, just fall unconscious and stable.
i get everything youre saying except the last bit on nonlethal--falling unconcious in combat is very freaking lethal. Unless youve got a pet cleric or the like to immediately pop you back up you are Dead with a capital D if anyone can reach you for the coup de grace youre just laying there begging for.
That youre only accelerating such a scenario is my main point--with you losing hp and taking damage in combat (ac isnt the only way to be attacked/damaged) puts you at far less effective hp than your non-burning peers.
Then again the guy below you noted that you can mitigate or remove burn entirely, which i forgot. I may just be seeing horribly gribbly things where none exist. Still, the thought of 'oh, i just effectively killed myself with my core class feature' makes me uncomfortable.
Okay, so I built a 9th level Aerokineticist, and these are my thoughts so far:
There is definitely a lack of skill points and class skills.
The impression I got when picking out feats, was that Point-blank Shot and Precise Shot were "Mandatory" for the class. As in, I really couldn't see why anyone would not take them. Supposing someone decided to focus on Kinetic Blade and Whip, they'd pretty much weind up with a switch-hitter that'd need these feats for capitalizing on ranged opportunities.
As far as Infusions go: It seemed that for the level and element I was building with, there were more form infusions than substance infusions. I also felt that The kinetic blasts didn't look like they either hit hard or well. Weapon focus, being yet another 'Mandatory' feat for the class. Also 'Mandatory' was what I thought when I saw the Expanded Element wild Talent, again after asking myself "Why wouldn't I take it?"
I think could also benefit from a few bonus feats, perhaps relating to chosen elements? Like Air would have a list of bonus feats from which to choose from, as would Earth, fire, etc... much like how the various sorcerer and bloodrager bloodlines grant extra feats depending on their chosen bloodline. At the same time, things like point-blank and precise shot perhaps being rolled into the class somehow?
I've yet to actually use this build in an actual combat, though I've started playing this character in a Module set in a place called Dustspawn (No spoilers please. ;P), but I feel that the Burn mechanic is interesting and certainly has potential.
I'm kind've torn between whether I like the burn mechanic or not; on one hand it's a good representation of really going beyond your normal limits, on another it seems like it all adds up much too quickly. I'll wait until that first combat before I give my final say on the class overall though.
BTW, not sure if this has been answered or not, but will we be seeing a second round of playtests?
Average HP for a d8 is equal to 5 + Con + 1 (FCB) and probably + 1 (Toughness).
Well... Technically, it's 4.5 per HD. Not 5.
Plus, I just made a big long post about how good Kineticist defenses are.
I think the cost of getting those defenses, added to the cost of getting mediocre accuracy is still too high... Having high defenses isn't all that great when 1 or 2 hits (or AoE effects) is all that is necessary to knock you out.
Oh, and they actually aren't losing real HP, just taking nonlethal, so they won't die if they exceed it, just fall unconscious and stable.
That... Really doesn't help much... You're still not playing the game and still not helping your party in any way. Unconscious or dead, the end result is the same: The player is bored and the character is useless.
Average HP for a d8 is equal to 5 + Con + 1 (FCB) and probably + 1 (Toughness).Well... Technically, it's 4.5 per HD. Not 5.
When you take average HP, though, you get to round up for whatever reason.
Plus, I just made a big long post about how good Kineticist defenses are.I think the cost of getting those defenses, added to the cost of getting mediocre accuracy is still too high... Having high defenses isn't all that great when 1 or 2 hits (or AoE effects) is all that is necessary to knock you out.
If it takes 1-2 hits to take you out, it takes 1 or 2 hits to take anyone in the party out. As I was pointing out, you'll have at least as many HP as other d8 classes (with better defenses, except for Will), and are likely to have as many HP as the Fighter. And this is after Burn (1/3 of your level worth, spent on Kinetic Form and your defenses).
Yes, a Barbarian will have more HP, most likely. And Scarred Witch Doctors, too (though I would point out that PCs aren't really supposed to be them--they're intended for Orc NPC types). But that's kind of it.
Your point about being unconscious is a good one, but I just don't think you're actually going to be in that situation more often than anyone else.
When you take average HP, though, you get to round up for whatever reason.
I think that's just the rule in PFS. If you want the actual average, it's best is assume the character alternate between rolling 4s and 5s.
If it takes 1-2 hits to take you out, it takes 1 or 2 hits to take anyone in the party out. As I was pointing out, you'll have at least as many HP as other d8 classes (with better defenses, except for Will), and are likely to have as many HP as the Fighter. And this is after Burn (1/3 of your level worth, spent on Kinetic Form and your defenses).
I'm not convinced. Using Burn a few times a day will put you only slightly above average hp at best. (Metakinesis or composite blasts, for example, can't have burn reduced. And you also need FtB for that mediocre accuracy).
Your point about being unconscious is a good one, but I just don't think you're actually going to be in that situation more often than anyone else.
I somehow doubt that's the case. Other classes get hit... They get healed. Kineticists uses Burn... Well, that's too bad. Next hit or two and he's out. At least that what I saw happen in the 2 Kineticist playtests I had.
At very least Kineticists need to become better at reducing Burn with a move action as the levels go up. It still makes no sense that the Kineticists not only never gets better at that, but also gets worse at using Burn, suffering more and more damage for the exact same benefit.
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)
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Since Kineticists don't use iteratives... Couldn't they get the ability to reduce Burn by -1 every time they would a new attack? (So -2 at 8th level and -3 at 15th)
And the bonus from FtB should really just be granted to the class without requiring Burn... Then Burn would be a bonus rather than a necessity that unfairly taxes the character.
maybe they're keeping it for an archetype that uses the iteratives for something (elemental fist on crack?)
and yeah, since the bonus is tied to the amount of burn you're currently suffering (and it IS suffering), getting that +5 means you're at 100hp less than listed on your sheet--140 if you're at the max +7 bonus at 20 (1/3/6/9/12/15/18 FtB expansion).
continued musing now that i've got the doc to look at:
with 30 con and toughness, your average HP is ~330 ((~90 avg) + 200 (+10 con) + 40 (FCB + toughness)), knocking off 1/3 of your total health at that level to be not hanging out with the monk and rogue in the 'cant hit s!#+ captain' camp at the cost of getting knocked out FAR easier doesn't seem like a good setup for continued survival.
again, this is assuming that you're even making use of FtB (touch blasts bypass the need for attack bonus on anything but stupid-huge monsters that dont have dex anyway), but the lack of bonus damage bites you hard vs DR (alignment is straight up impossible to bypass from what i can see).
personally i'm not sure i could even play a kineticist (or any other psychic class)--i would crap an entire castle at the prospect of trading 60-80hp to 'cast' anything, let alone augment my warlock blast (yes this can be reduced as you level, but choose the wrong type to reduce and whoops! you're a sack of potatoes now! if you wanna do that). especially when i can CREATE AN ENTIRE MICROCOSM as a wizard without keeling over unconscious. it seems like far too much loss for too little gain--you're literally paying in blood to be a full BAB class.
I'm not convinced. Using Burn a few times a day will put you only slightly above average hp at best. (Metakinesis or composite blasts, for example, can't have burn reduced. And you also need FtB for that mediocre accuracy).
FtB Triggers based on Burn you've taken. You don't specifically spend it on FtB. So, you use that much burn and then never use burn again. I know you don't like it, and while I don't feel the same way, I can't really argue with your point here, but you aren't supposed to use any burn in combat unless it's the very last thing you do that day. You're intended to just use regular blasts with move actions and specializations to reduce all the burn to zero, saving composite blasts and other metakinesis for level 15, 19, and the boss fight.
Again, I get that you don't like that, but don't act like the class is super fragile because you don't want t play the way they were intended.
Your point about being unconscious is a good one, but I just don't think you're actually going to be in that situation more often than anyone else.I somehow doubt that's the case. Other classes get hit... They get healed. Kineticists uses Burn... Well, that's too bad. Next hit or two and he's out. At least that what I saw happen in the 2 Kineticist playtests I had.
And I am more than willing to accept the Kineticist is a secretly more challenging class to play than it initially seems, since people using Burn in combat were probably doing it wrong, despite nothing about the class text saying, "Hey, really, don't do this unless you MUST."
At very least Kineticists need to become better at reducing Burn with a move action as the levels go up. It still makes no sense that the Kineticists not only never gets better at that, but also gets worse at using Burn, suffering more and more damage for the exact same benefit.
While I agree that it would be nice to reduce more Burn at later levels with move actions, I think it's also kind of unfair that you claim the Kineticist never gets better at reducing Burn but suffers more and more damage.
Either you recognize that Burn is proportional, so while you never get better at reducing Burn, you also don't get worse at handling Burn because it's entirely proportional, or you believe Burn is absolute and gets worse as you level, in which case you get better at reducing Burn over time, because reducing 1 Burn at level 5 saves you 5 HP, while reducing 1 Burn at level 3 only saves you 3 HP.
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I like the idea of being better at reducing burn. I personally like how Feel the Burn works, I think it could use a higher bonus (+2 per point of Burn would feel more like a bonus rather than a break-even).
That kinda my feel on it... Kineticist currently pays a really high price just to compensate for his lack of enhancement bonuses to accuracy/damage...
If the class got the weapon-equivalent bonus to blasts and then could use Burn to actually excel, rather than just break even, it'd be more fair.
And since I'm already here...
1- Spark of Life should be simplified/buffed. Make it an Summon Monster SLA that only summons elementals and comes at the same levels a Wizard would get access to the appropriate version of the spell.
2- The restrictions to the "Extra Wild Talent" feat are pointless, arbitrary, needlessly complicated and simply not fun. No other "extra class feature" feat has such restrictions. There is literally nor eason for it.
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)
But..I just showed like three posts up that you don't actually have low HP. Con is your second best stat here, which basically means you're sitting on the same stack of effective HP as everyone else.
FtB Triggers based on Burn you've taken. You don't specifically spend it on FtB.
I know that... But you still gotta take Burn. And you better do ti early at the day, or your to hit will be about a 50~65%.
Again, I get that you don't like that, but don't act like the class is super fragile because you don't want t play the way they were intended.
Kineticists are not "super fragile". But they are far more fragile than any combat class should be.
And I am more than willing to accept the Kineticist is a secretly more challenging class to play than it initially seems, since people using Burn in combat were probably doing it wrong, despite nothing about the class text saying, "Hey, really, don't do this unless you MUST."
I honestly can't see how having a class feature that the player hopes never have to use is good design. Every Paladin is excited to face an evil enemy because Smite evil is awesome. Every Ranger has fun fighting his FE because it's awesome. And so on... Only the Kineticist goes "I really hope I don't ever have to use this!".
Players should be excited about using their class features... Not trying to avoid it at all costs.
Either you recognize that Burn is proportional, so while you never get better at reducing Burn, you also don't get worse at handling Burn because it's entirely proportional, or you believe Burn is absolute and gets worse as you level, in which case you get better at reducing Burn over time, because reducing 1 Burn at level 5 saves you 5 HP, while reducing 1 Burn at level 3 only saves you 3 HP.
"Proportional" means nothing. Only flat numbers matter, because damage isn't dealt in "percentage of health", it's dealt in flat numbers. Having 50% of 80hp is still better than having 100% of 30hp.
You do get worse at using it... Want to use an ability that costs 1 Burn? Well, it costs you 5hp at 5th level... Then, somehow, it starts costing 6hp at 6th level... and 7hp at 7th, and so on. That is getting worse at using Burn. The fact that you can afford to be worse doesn't change the fact that you are getting worse.
What other class features works like that? Where the cost for using it increases with level? The Bard doesn't have to spend more rounds of Bardic Performance to maintain his abilities just because he gets more rounds and higher Cha as he levels up. The Wizard doesn't have to spend 2 spell slots instead of 1 for casting Fireballs just because he got more spells per day and higher Int. The Paladin doesn't have to spend 2 LoH to cure the same amount of damage he could heal with a single use of the abiltiy just to "balance" the fact that he is at higher level has higher Cha. Monks don't get an increasing penalty to Will saves to compensate their good Will save progression and focus on Wis.
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)But..I just showed like three posts up that you don't actually have low HP. Con is your second best stat here, which basically means you're sitting on the same stack of effective HP as everyone else.
For twice the price in ability points...
My guy with Con 22 has the same hp as the Rogue with Con 14... Until I use my class features again! Then I'll have even less! Truly a fun and rewarding mechanic!
Kineticists are not "super fragile". But they are far more fragile than any combat class should be.
Except, they're exactly as fragile as all of the combat classes except for Barbarian.
I honestly can't see how having a class feature that the player hopes never have to use is good design. Every Paladin is excited to face an evil enemy because Smite evil is awesome. Every Ranger has fun fighting his FE because it's awesome. And so on... Only the Kineticist goes "I really hope I don't ever have to use this!".
Players should be excited about using their class features... Not trying to avoid it at all costs.
As I said, I don't agree, but I can't deny your feeling on this. It's not something you like. I think it works fine. /shrug
"Proportional" means nothing. Only flat numbers matter, because damage isn't dealt in "percentage of health", it's dealt in flat numbers. Having 50% of 80hp is still better than having 100% of 30hp.
You do get worse at using it... Want to use an ability that costs 1 Burn? Well, it costs you 5hp at 5th level... Then, somehow, it starts costing 6hp at 6th...
I never said you couldn't complain about getting worse at spending Burn, I only said that you couldn't complain about that AND at the same time complain that you never get better at reducing Burn. If you're only looking at flat numbers, then, yes, you take 6 nonlethal at 6th and at 7th for using the same ability. But, then, when looked at in that light, you DO get better at reducing Burn damage, because when you spend a move action at 6th, you save yourself 6 HP, while using that move action at 7th saves yourself 7. That's all I was saying there.
a small note i find re-reading the playtest doc: that burn cant be healed By Any Means beyond bedrest, my pocket-cleric note actually cant happen. you're stuck with permanent (for the day) reduced HP anytime burn comes up. i mean said cleric can prop you up if you get pushed under, but there's nothing stopping the enemy from just knocking you back down again with your nice low HP, and that eats into your and your cleric's actions (which could be allocated elswhere)But..I just showed like three posts up that you don't actually have low HP. Con is your second best stat here, which basically means you're sitting on the same stack of effective HP as everyone else.For twice the price in ability points...
My guy with Con 22 has the same hp as the Rogue with Con 14... Until I use my class features again! Then I'll have even less! Truly a fun and rewarding mechanic!
Your level 10 guy with 22 Con has MORE HP than the Rogue with 14 Con because the Rogue needed all of their feats for feat taxes that you can't even use with your blasts, so doesn't have Toughness and is unlikely to be spending FCBs on HP over special stuff like getting extra Talents. So, after spending 3 Burn, your Kineticist probably has 103 effective HP, while that Rogue has 73. Hell, even with Toughness and FCBs, they're only at 93.
I know you don't like spending Burn this way, and I know it's the principle of the thing that bothers you, but the actual results don't match what you're saying. You can hate the feel of it all you like and I can't deny it, but the mechanics are sound and do not screw over Kineticists that are careful about their Burn.
When Kineticist DPR is higher, they get more skill points, and they get probably twice as many wild talents (especially additional utility), it's not going to feel like trading HP for mediocrity, it's going to be awesome.
editted my oprevious post--it's quite a bit, and i cant edit the post anymore to cut it out and make a fresh post for it.
So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:
1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?
2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?
I never said you couldn't complain about getting worse at spending Burn, I only said that you couldn't complain about that AND at the same time complain that you never get better at reducing Burn. If you're only looking at flat numbers, then, yes, you take 6 nonlethal at 6th and at 7th for using the same ability. But, then, when looked at in that light, you DO get better at reducing Burn damage, because when you spend a move action at 6th, you save yourself 6 HP, while using that move action at 7th saves yourself 7. That's all I was saying there.
And you still end up worse... Because even though you're saving 10hp instead of 6, you're still losing more than you'd have lost if you were at lower level.
---
And it's not just the principle of Burn that annoys me. I don't care about the "principle" of a fictional class. I care about its functionality. I think it's a bad mechanic, both from a fun perspective and from a balance perspective.
1- it's not fun not being able to use your class features. Similarly, it's not fun trying to avoid using your class features at all costs. Every other class feature in the game gets more uses as the levels go up, taxing the character less and less, encouraging the player to use if more often. Burn does the inverse. It costs more and more for the same benefit.
2- The Kineticist wouldn't be overpowered if he spent points from a resource pool rather than hp. In fact, if that and the number of skill points were all that was changed, the Kineticist would still be underpowered.
3- It doesn't matter if you have the same hp as a Rogue with Con 14 or 16... It still stands that your character spent far more points in Con in exchange for the same benefit (or lower, if you use your class features twice a day).
Not that it matters, really... I doubt it'll be changed. Mark never commented on anything about Burn (or maybe I missed it), so I take it he likes the mechanic.
At best, we get an archetype that uses a ki pool or something, but since it can't be better than the Burn-using Kineticist, it'll probably lose access to many of the abilities that would make me want to play a Kineticist in the first place...
So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:
1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?
2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?
while not a consensus, my only issues with the class is the skill points (which has been raised numerous times in the thread so i'll not reiterate it), and how needlessly punishing burn is for so little (breaking even is not a bonus).
the former's solution of 4+int is everywhere, and for burn you could fairly easily make it a boon rather than something you try to actively avoid: either by increasing the burn bonus, or by decreasing--or stopping entirely--the levelscaling on burn (because why should one be punished more as they level up to do the same thing they've been doing? literally nobody else deals with that--i'm all for trading vitality for power, just not as lopsided as it is currently).
the powers are neat and thematic, the ability to mix and match changes to your shtick on the fly is really cool.
It would be cool if you could recover some over time, but I imagine that would tweak the balance of all day buffs a touch. It could make the morning buff more interesting if you had to think about taking more burn against how much you may recover before heavy combat. What about something like your ftb bonus in non lethal from burn recovers every hour? At least it would require more thought.
It would be cool if you could recover some over time, but I imagine that would tweak the balance of all day buffs a touch. It could make the morning buff more interesting if you had to think about taking more burn against how much you may recover before heavy combat. What about something like your ftb bonus in non lethal from burn recovers every hour? At least it would require more thought.
or if your move-action burn recovery did more than one at once as you leveled up (perhaps increasing the concentration DC by +2 or so for each additional point if you're interrupted?), and/or reimbursed (at least half) 'burned' HP for those recovered.
Yeah, I just feel like recovering a little over time would be more fun and thematic. It kind of throws a bone to the peeps who dislike burn on the principal that you get worse at taking burn increments over levels. Just a thought anyway.
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Not that it matters, really... I doubt it'll be changed. Mark never commented on anything about Burn (or maybe I missed it), so I take it he likes the mechanic.
At best, we get an archetype that uses a ki pool or something, but since it...
He has mentioned the idea of an archetype that removes burn, but cannot take any wild talents that would cause the character to take burn, and instead they get some other benefits.
I like the concept of burn. I like the fact it poses a risk when using it. I like that you burn your body to become stronger. I REALLY don't like its implementation and actual ingame effect.
When ingame all you will ever see is a kineticist growing huge in the morning and doing move action + blast the entire day, saving a few burn points for boss fights, something is wrong with the burn mechanics. It feels WRONG to use your powers like that.
Burn should be something you DON'T use in the morning after breakfast. It should be a mechanic you save for during combat. After all, your character is probably not a masochist, he saves his selfdamaging power for when he needs it; and it should be something that is encouraged to be used in combat instead of out of combat. However, when you use burn in combat like it is now, the kineticist class as a whole just falls flat.
however, I don't really have a solution to fix this...
EDIT: To better explain my point. MECHANICALLY you are rewarded for using your powers in the most UN-THEMATICAL way.
He has mentioned the idea of an archetype that removes burn, but cannot take any wild talents that would cause the character to take burn, and instead they get some other benefits.Not that it matters, really... I doubt it'll be changed. Mark never commented on anything about Burn (or maybe I missed it), so I take it he likes the mechanic.
At best, we get an archetype that uses a ki pool or something, but since it...
So it wouldn't have access to composite blasting, metakinesis, elemental body, spark of life or many other powers that are exactly what make Kineticists fun to use...
That's exactly what I feared.
*sigh*
He has mentioned the idea of an archetype that removes burn, but cannot take any wild talents that would cause the character to take burn, and instead they get some other benefits.Not that it matters, really... I doubt it'll be changed. Mark never commented on anything about Burn (or maybe I missed it), so I take it he likes the mechanic.
At best, we get an archetype that uses a ki pool or something, but since it...
Great idea.
How would you like to play my new Ranger archetype?
It removes the restriction for applying your Favored Enemy bonus to certain creatures, letting you hit any creature with it.
Like the Guide Archetype?
Not really. The Guide archetype gets a new ability to replace it.
Actually, that's not an accurate comparison. That idea sounds MUCH worse than mine.
It's more like removing the daily restriction on Bombs the Alchemist can throw, but removing their ability to take Discoveries that augment Bombs.
I guess I'll just leave it at Mark is going to have to come up with something BRILLIANT if he wants that to work out, and be an actual fair and viable alternative.
As-is there really isn't an equivalent in the current books, since Burn is such a tremendously terrible and detrimental mechanic in its current incarnation, but is also tied so intricately into EVERYTHING interesting the class can potentially do, that simply saying "Yeah well, you don't have to deal with it, but don't get to do any of the cool stuff either' isn't anywhere near an adequate solution.
All we have left at this point is speculation anyway. We've gone over all the ground there is to cover, and apparently there isn't going to be a second incarnation of the playtest, so we're stuck holding our breaths until I beieve August next year to see if the only interesting class from this book will be any good in the end.
What about an archetype that prevents you from taking wild talents if it would deal you burn? However, you could take wild talents if you have an ability to reduce the talent's burn cost to zero, such as Infusion Specialization.
This would mean the class is incapable of using things like the Composite Blasts, as those always cost burn up until higher levels, but they could take something like Kinetic Blade if they have Infusion Specialization (form x1) or something.
I don't know what the trade off would be, but it's a start.
Great idea.How would you like to play my new Ranger archetype?
It removes the restriction for applying your Favored Enemy bonus to certain creatures, letting you hit any creature with it.
** spoiler omitted **
I think you missed the Gaining other benefits bit.... since you seem to be under the impression that you get nothing for the archetype.
i do recall seeing mark saying something about possibly increasing hitpoits or something through class features, perhaps a sort of toughness that stacks with the feat version?
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So, with this thread now exceeding 3,000 posts (our collective desire to see this class do well is evident), I have two important questions:
1) Is there a consensus yet about what the problem areas of the kineticist are?
2) Are we any closer to providing the designer(s) with solutions for the class's problematic elements? If so, what have we (the Paizo community) come up with?
Consensus problems:
1) Lack of skill points
2) Unquestionably needs more damage
3) More utility powers/more access to utility powers
4) Substance Infusions mostly blow
Solutions: More skill points, more damage, more/better utility powers, splitting utility and blast infusions into separate pools and providing 10 choices from each over 20 levels instead of just 10 total between them, more/better Substance infusions
Edit: forgot some minor ones:
5) We want the fantastic bonuses from kinetic form, but nobody really wants to walk around all day as an amorphous blob of element. Solution: give the bonuses of kinetic form without actually polymorphing the kineticist
6) Fire's defense is terrible and air is "just ok." Solution: make them better, especially by giving more return for Burn.
Problems about half the community seems to have while the other half does not:
1) Burn is too punitive
2) Accuracy is too low
Solutions: I have no clue because I don't have a problem with these things.
Initially, I was concerned about both the accuracy and the cost of burn, but mpl and a few others have convinced me that it's much less severe than it seems. However, I don't want Kineticists to require Toughness and FCB dedication (especially if there are good racials) just to avoid the fragility that many posters are worried about.
Specifically, I guess, I feel like taking Toughness and FCB bonuses to hp should result in an especially tough character of whatever class, and would hate to see Kineticists with those as "normal" and those without as squishy. I'm not sure exactly how that would need to be balanced, but it is a concern of mine so far.
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Does this move action option work for ALL wild talents or just blasts? It mentions a "kinetic blast that releases it" but otherwise seems to work for all wild talents, so I'm not sure how to rule this.If she has both hands free, as a move action, a kineticist
can visibly gather energy or elemental matter around her,
allowing her to reduce the total burn cost of a wild talent
used in the same round by 1 point (to a minimum of 0
points). If she takes any damage while gathering power
and before the kinetic blast that releases it, she must make
a concentration check (DC = 10 + damage dealt + effective
spell level of her kinetic blast) or lose the energy in a wild
surge that deals her 1 point of burn.It should be only blasts and infusions (which affect blasts). But certainly not like a defense or something like that. Dear Shelyn that would be bad!
EDIT: Y'know what. My playtest-ready document I turned over right here says "blast wild talent" and not "wild talent" there. Heads will roll!
Actually I was loving that concept of gathering energy. But i can't figure out why you would be limited to reducing only one point of burn that way. I would suggest that it be tweaked a little bit.
The way I would do it is make it so you can continue to spend actions to gather more material and further reduce the burn, instead of limiting the reduction to 1. The counterbalance to this would be that they are burning actions to gather and hold the material, and should they be damaged while they are holding the charge then they risk greater damage from the wild surge, dealing burn at a rate of 1 plus 1 for every 2 points of burn reduced. This makes the process much riskier, as if you try to channel more than 1 point reduction, it actually leaves you open for the enemies to try and stop you as their turns come around.
I also would say it could be used to reduce burn on non-instant abilities, like the defensive talents, but only for a brief time. As unlike simply paying burn and overcharging the ability with more of your power, you're gathering material which is consumed in the using of the ability. So you could use it to reduce your burn on your defensive talent but only for a short time before the extra material has been consumed and your defensive talent returns to it's normal form (a minute tops, probably half that).
Its a time or money concept, if you're willing to spend 2 rounds charging up your blast in the middle of combat so you can drop your explosion blast without eating burn, go for it. Or if you see you're heading into dangerous territory and want to have your stuff ready so you can try to blast whoever you see with something nasty right off the bat, or bring up a powerful defensive shield, I'm all for it (as that also means that when you don't see them or lose in initiative, they'll get to hit you and cause you to burn yourself as they break your concentration).
Initially, I was concerned about both the accuracy and the cost of burn, but mpl and a few others have convinced me that it's much less severe than it seems. However, I don't want Kineticists to require Toughness and FCB dedication (especially if there are good racials) just to avoid the fragility that many posters are worried about.
Specifically, I guess, I feel like taking Toughness and FCB bonuses to hp should result in an especially tough character of whatever class, and would hate to see Kineticists with those as "normal" and those without as squishy. I'm not sure exactly how that would need to be balanced, but it is a concern of mine so far.
You know what? I agree with this. Maybe Toughness and/Precise Shot can be a bonus feat at an early level? Or Burn could equal half your level instead of your full level?