By the way, does anyone else feel like we should hold back posts for a little while, until Mark is back and able? The last time he posted was comment 1,114, and nearly 500 comments have been made since then.
I wonder how he's even going to respond to this thread as it is. I almost wonder if he isn't going to have to make a separate document, just to keep track of which questions he needs to answer.
I can see an argument for torch being physical but mustang is int based. All alchemists are int based to one extent or another. Even Armstrong. Alchemy in fma is basically just crafting.
For Mutang, I would contend that his Int is governing his flexibility, but not his raw power.
Sure, it took Int for him to rip water apart into hydrogen and oxygen and use that to make a really big boom, but the actual intensity of his fire isn't really governed by that.
For other alchemists, yes. It's so obnoxiously flexible that alchemy boils down to "how hard can you cheat physics", and knowing how physics works helps screw it harder.
But that was one example out of three-- four if you count Benders-- and thus I stand by my point. Even disregarding the practical concerns of a stat that desperately needs a high Con mod, Wis doesn't really fit.
All of that comes down to knowledge checks, by the way. So an alchemist from FMA could function off con, but they take burn damage if they don't know exactly what they're transforming.
You can also take the feat Extra Wild Talent (see first page) at 7th level so you can have both wild talents.
Except that the feat on the first page restricts you to 1st level talents until you hit level 10.
Which is pointless and overly restrictive, especially to a class that already lags VERY far behind basically everything else in the entire game. The feat should work like the other Extra X feats, and let you select any that are available.
Well the class isn't specifically Benders only ya'kno? They're psychich Kineticists. Which typically is all elements, TK, light, and darkness in most comment stories. Benders in the actual show aren't really psychis at al lsince they're empowered by those turtle thingies originally. They're more like Sorcerers in that world. So there is certainl ya similarity and this c lass lets you make benders so much easier and funnier- in my opinion. but that idea shouldn't override the actual class.
I'd love a later release with light and shadows as well.
I guess I could see an archtype for TK but still. the actual class idea was Kinesticsts rather than benders.
Really it's pretty easy to have them have the same mechanical benefits but different flavors.
Kinetic form being one of the ones I point out. The TK one could just give stat bonuses as the TK is just reinforcing his body with his mind. (but I also think that talent shouldn't transform you into an elemental just give yo ubonuses and maybe resistances in case of the elements)
Well... They aren't exactly a perfect match for psychic kineticists either... They have good Reflex rather than Will and are based on a physical attribute, while most psychics in fiction have their power based on mental prowess (although they do often go over their limits and suffer physical consequences)
I dunno I feel like the will save actually fits.
your spending all your mental facultiies on controlling your element and avoiding it going out of control and nuking you.
If something else crawls into your head?Well. Your super distracted already so you won't be able to fight agianst it right away.
Hence low will.
Jean and prof xavier, and the DC psychics have all fallen to mental intrusion when they were focusing on something specific. Hell jean got brain controlled because all her focus is/was on controlling the phoenix almost always. So a psychic who she beat before she had the phoneix just rolled her into temporary insanity and letting the phoenix have a playda y.
Low Will seems to fit to me anyway.
But yeah just don't focus too hard on one pure mental image of things for this class or it'll get pigeon holed and other aspects will be lost out in the hussel and bussel
By the way, does anyone else feel like we should hold back posts for a little while, until Mark is back and able? The last time he posted was comment 1,114, and nearly 500 comments have been made since then.
I wonder how he's even going to respond to this thread as it is. I almost wonder if he isn't going to have to make a separate document, just to keep track of which questions he needs to answer.
Agreed. Let's give it a break so Mark can actually read the posts when he comes back...
Can you pick up an enemy and throw him into a wall or window with the express intent to break through it? All Foe Throw does is turn an enemy into a projectile instead of using a random object. The thrown enemy still takes damage, as does the target. I'm thinking it isn't possible after re-reading the first sentence of the telekinetic blast ability...
Telekinetic Blast wrote:
You throw whatever unattended object
happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack.
What does everyone else think? Can I get an official ruling on the question as well?
Can you pick up an enemy and throw him into a wall or window with the express intent to break through it? All Foe Throw does is turn an enemy into a projectile instead of using a random object. The thrown enemy still takes damage, as does the target. I'm thinking it isn't possible after re-reading the first sentence of the telekinetic blast ability...
Telekinetic Blast wrote:
You throw whatever unattended object
happens to be nearby at a single foe as a ranged attack.
What does everyone else think? Can I get an official ruling on the question as well?
Currently because of it using "foe" intead of "target" or something like it. nope... no slamming peopel agianst walls and such.
I sorta hope it changes to target though. So Ican use enemies to break down a door, or use TK to target my friends square with their magic blade or something.
and a break doesn't seem unreasonable. since playtest data goes to the playtest area anyway
Random thought I wasn't sure where to put... but felt like writing without forgetting it. Considering it might be good to wait a bit for Devs to hopefully catch up (we went wild it seems) when they're ready-of course.
I think it might be worthwhile to remove a fair bit of the fluff from the actual talents. I was reading some of them and thinking about them in class and I realized quite a few things are oddly restricted.
You could have more general things and the player/gm fill in some of the fluff areas. This would allow some more general terms to be layed out. and it would allow kineticists to really really customize their characters. You could have two fire brothers, who don't fly the same way.. One might use fire in their hands, one might fire blue flames from their feat. They could use the same actual attack move but visually it would be different. Which would be cool, and make them so much less cookie cutter
It would potentially save some space for more fun stuff, or more explainations for anything in the other classes I suppose.
It's pretty long so spoiler tagged it.
Random thoughts on it with some examples:
A good example of what I mean is magnetic Infusion. It allows earth (which is magnetic in the first place) to magnatize. but it also allows electricty to magnatize. Which is a bit outside of atypical pathfinder lightening but is something real you would think youcould do with electricty.
Spark of life is another good example of really open ended and involving all elements that make sense. (I can not think of a aether version that makes any sesne. since you'd have to concentrate something fierce for that sorta thing)
For instance, kinetic form.
Kinetic form as it is is only elemental. and you transform into an elemental- but doesn't really specify how it interacts with some things (particularly handedness). I think you could "genericize" it. "your infused with your element" then gain stat bonuses, either standard for all elements or based off actual elementals and TK can chose their bonus. (you could include the movement bonuses you gain from elemental form in it. basically you gain it without trnasformation of body. You just glow or shimmer). Or if you let the fluff be up to the players more. You can make Superboy from teentitans. or EVEN better! Armour from xmen. Her psychic suit? That is exactly what I'm thinking of for an Aetherist version (just not so big of course)
A few talents could also be stream lined to open up to more of the other elements.
for instance Cylcone; this is currently air but you could easily do it with a cyclone made of TK, instead of cutting air it's a swirl of random items/dust/pebbles ensheathed with tk energy. Potentially earth as well with rocks.
Explosion is currently only fire. but you could easily do it with TK and Earth as well honestly. Aetherist would compress the space itself to create a concussive wave. Earth could pop a rock up that explodes and hits everyone. Explosion really just gives an AOE, right now it's only specifically fire but really some of the others fit.
Impale is a bit of a weird one for me as well. Why couldn't an Aetherist control a weapon and send it through various people as well
I could see Many Throw being opened up to earth as well, who fires rocks like a machingun at the targets.
Now this one is due to Avatar but I could see blue flame's effect also working with Lightening.
Though Impale along with Torrent feel like two sides of a coin but between the two of them I feel like you could properly use every element. Impale screams earth, aether, ice/water, lightening. Torrent really sounds like water, air/lightening, fire maybe aether.
Sharding is weird.. I feel like it's just a grown up version of Explosion-except high level for sure. But same weirdness with the element restriction of water and earth. TK and Fire seems like it should fit i just as well. I almost feel like it's something of a "unlocked at high level" aspect. Except for electr I can generally see every style. Air itself could probably do a compressed ball of air like Naruto's Rasengan thing.
Spray, is currently only water. But why can't I flame a whole cone, or TK blast people (with or without items I guess. but again the TK blast doesn't require you to supply an item. its "just there"). I don't think it overlaps badly with many throw.
Flame jet, could be reworded slightly. So it's not fire specific. It would save the extra word space for including the aether version that just refers to flame jet. Just list the elements, and the effect. Granted you'll get the occasional trouble maker who uses his fluff power to say he farts fire to fly... but owell saves you print and a gm can just say no. So flame jet is too for fire and aether. You could also use earth for it. At first flame jet, the earth person uses the earth to catapolt/earth spike under them to fling them in the direction and catch themselves. and at lv 10 they could use earth to stand on and fly.
Ice walk could be retitled slightly and used for ice/water and earth. Earth would basically be exactly the same. you make a path of rocks or you stand on earth that moves.
I haven't an issue for kinetic cover, but I think you could either include fire. The wall itself gives you cover and sometimes blocks line of sight. You could easily make a wall of smoke that blocks line of sight and gives you cover or concealment. The walls break with one attack so the smoke could just disappate when attacked. can't think of an air like thing
Ride the Blast should also include Aether, from a balance and a rule of cool point. There are plenty of examples of a TK person using it to augment them and blasting in like what is described. Just go read Superboy during his time with Teen titans in the pre-new 52 (and to some extent in the current but he does less "ride the blast" charge like things). But it's pretty harsh to have such a massive combat ability leave out aetherist. sortal ike K-Form. (when I first read this I thought K-form would have been a prereq actually)
Not all of them though, Entangling looks perfect, the othe elements don't really have ways I can think of that are "throw and forget it" tk could hold someone but it would require attention. Lightning could I guess shock someone to engangle but meh that doens't sound right either.
Composite blasts are a whole nother story of course. I just hope there is a good example of a combo of ever element. It potentially takes up a lot of space I guess.. but you could likely overlap some effects.
/
Also random thought for Aetherist. :
kenetic control is also how Gambit explodes his cards in fact. You could give Aetherist something like that when you double up. (as currently you only gain a 2 burn to add +1 per die and a xd6 force one) So a composite double aetherist move could be sonething like that. Where you fling compressed TK/air/item/whatever, and it's basically the current TK blast but 2d6 instead of 1d6 per odd level, but give it a small AOE
Or for the touch AC one make it gambit styled attack; charged up Aether blast. and later create an infusion that gives it a small AOE like the other substance infusions since there currently aren't really any substance for pure aetherist.
Last random thought. Is a wild talent that lets you apply the Blast to specific combat feats. Like shot on the run (oh this would be so useful considering the 30ft range) and or vital strike (modified to account for the base damage xd6 and xd6+1). or create a burn fueld substance infusion that replicates Vital strike. Possibly add a restriction that due to changing how it manifests you can't metakensis it, so you don't have any empower/maximized vital strikes.
So you can have yourself a sniper style.
When they first mentioned the class I thought Carrie(and Firestarter). Though I am disappointed that you can't even make Carrie with the rules we have gotten so far but luckily this isn't the final version.
When I think of kineticist, I think of characters who have strong minds not con scores. Some might be cha based but most are int based in there powers. The reason why such characters were tough wasn't because they had high con stats but because there kinetic powers made then resistant to physical harm.
Am I the only one, who, not ever having seen Avatar, instead though of Carrie (Stephen King) when they first considered this class?
The first one that came to my mind was Firestarter.
The second was Kaze no Stigma. Pyro-kineticist+Kinetic Blade->"Hideo Enraiha!" Air->Kazuma...though he's basically mythic since he could influence effects on a continental/planetary scale.
Carrie was a bit of an after thought...
I honestly didn't even think about Avatar...still traumatized from the live action film so my memory has blocked it out. And to this day, every time I hear "bender" all I think about is Futurama and if somehow a robot got psychic powers. :)
Just had a thought...perhaps on a lesser scale, if kineticists formed "contracts" with elementals or even had a stronger tie to their elemental plane (kind of like kinetic form talent but all elements could access it) add some sort of effective caster level boost. I'd say make it a 10th level power...but they are already struggling to either a scaling class feature (at say 5th/10th/15th?) or maybe a scaling feat.
Am I the only one, who, not ever having seen Avatar, instead though of Carrie (Stephen King) when they first considered this class?
No, the class is nothing even remotely close to Carrie, a telepath and telekinetic whose fine control of her abilities is not reflected by the somewhat clumsy and not-very-psychic Kineticist. It's a little like Charlie from Firestarter though.
I will probably rehash some thoughts and ideas already discussed but this thread has gotten so unwieldy as to be hard to keep up. But just some thoughts after reading through the class and then watching it played both as a fellow player and as GM.
1.the class lacks versatility.
-I think an increase in skills/level would be a great change as well as a larger list of class skills to allow the class to contribute in non combat situations.
-Also the lack of out of combat wild talents, or the delay until level 6, pigeon holes the class further into a combat class (which may be the reason so many people think its BAB is insufficient) I hope this is due to only a few of the wild talents being previewed however for a real test of the class it is these utility wild talents which interest me as a player.
2.The blast types (touch vs normal) need variety. As it stands the minor loss of damage for touch blasts is not sufficient to make the choice of normal attacks desirable (unless you are looking at a character idea which leaves you with only a normal attack)
-give bonuses or effect changes for the normal attacks
-give a touch and normal attack for each element and give advantages to each choice (touch hits easier but normal has more versatility/damage/status effect)
3. At first I liked the concept of burn, however upon further thought I to think it is a little much. My main concern is that the amount of burn you can actually take decreases as you level but the amount of burn you are likely going to take increases. to explain my logic look at a level 1 Kineticist vs a level 3 average HP. Ignoring con the level 1 kineticist can take 8 points of burn, 1 per HP, in contrast the level 2 can only take 6 points, 3x6 = 18 average HP. This is in contrast to every other class where their features grow exponentially. Ether the class requires an easier time mitigating burn or the burn needs to scale slower. If the move action mitigated the entire burn on a single chosen form or essence rather than 1 burn that would be a step in the correct direction but even then it limited. 1 burn /2 levels would help in the case above you are looking at 8 burn for level 1 and 9 for level 3.
Overall I like the class I just wish it had a little more versatility both in wild talents and blasts and that its class feature actually scaled properly.
ooc, since I've never played a ranged character before and am looking to get into the Kineticist for the playtest, does the Kineticist have the ability to fire off multiple Kinetic Blasts as iteratives once they hit Level 8 and +6 BAB? I know for the Kinetic Blade ability, this is the case, but having never played ranged characters before (and never having ones that specialize in SLA's) I'm uncertain as to how the kinetic blasts would interact with a Full Attack action.
3. At first I liked the concept of burn, however upon further thought I to think it is a little much. My main concern is that the amount of burn you can actually take decreases as you level but the amount of burn you are likely going to take increases. to explain my logic look at a level 1 Kineticist vs a level 3 average HP. Ignoring con the level 1 kineticist can take 8 points of burn, 1 per HP, in contrast the level 2 can only take 6 points, 3x6 = 18 average HP. This is in contrast to every other class where their features grow exponentially. Ether the class requires an easier time mitigating burn or the burn needs to scale slower. If the move action mitigated the entire burn on a single chosen form or essence rather...
You know Infusion Specialization reduces burn as level gets higher, right?
ooc, since I've never played a ranged character before and am looking to get into the Kineticist for the playtest, does the Kineticist have the ability to fire off multiple Kinetic Blasts as iteratives once they hit Level 8 and +6 BAB? I know for the Kinetic Blade ability, this is the case, but having never played ranged characters before (and never having ones that specialize in SLA's) I'm uncertain as to how the kinetic blasts would interact with a Full Attack action.
Yes and no.
Ranged wise. the Kinetic blast is a SLA-spell like ability. Which is a spescific standard action to activate. So no iteratives and no full action ability there. Kinetic blade does work off itaratives but it's melee.
So basically no full attacks ever for the sla based range fellow. Which is one reason the damage is scaling as it ddoes.
3. At first I liked the concept of burn, however upon further thought I to think it is a little much. My main concern is that the amount of burn you can actually take decreases as you level but the amount of burn you are likely going to take increases. to explain my logic look at a level 1 Kineticist vs a level 3 average HP. Ignoring con the level 1 kineticist can take 8 points of burn, 1 per HP, in contrast the level 2 can only take 6 points, 3x6 = 18 average HP. This is in contrast to every other class where their features grow exponentially. Ether the class requires an easier time mitigating burn or the burn needs to scale slower. If the move action mitigated the entire burn on a single chosen form or essence rather...
You know Infusion Specialization reduces burn as level gets higher, right?
And like a spell caster, the idea assumes your actually putting worth while attention into your "casting" stat. Since every point of con, gives you hp worth a point of burn and raises your burns per day.
ooc, since I've never played a ranged character before and am looking to get into the Kineticist for the playtest, does the Kineticist have the ability to fire off multiple Kinetic Blasts as iteratives once they hit Level 8 and +6 BAB? I know for the Kinetic Blade ability, this is the case, but having never played ranged characters before (and never having ones that specialize in SLA's) I'm uncertain as to how the kinetic blasts would interact with a Full Attack action.
Yes and no.
Ranged wise. the Kinetic blast is a SLA-spell like ability. Which is a spescific standard action to activate. So no iteratives and no full action ability there. Kinetic blade does work off itaratives but it's melee.
So basically no full attacks ever for the sla based range fellow. Which is one reason the damage is scaling as it ddoes.
Gotcha, so that kind of sucks. Only other question I can think to pose is whether or not Point-Blank shot works with Kinetic Blasts, simply because it seems like a necessary evil to take on the way to getting Precise Shot for ranged blasters. Has there been any definitive word in regards to this?
Gotcha, so that kind of sucks. Only other question I can think to pose is whether or not Point-Blank shot works with Kinetic Blasts, simply because it seems like a necessary evil to take on the way to getting Precise Shot for ranged blasters. Has there been any definitive word in regards to this?
I'm pretty darn sure that the rule was they count as weapons. So precise shot and PBS and weapon focus are all valid choicess.
You can apply anything that doesn't require different action than the specific one used to activate SLA. so no haste, rapid shot etc. but you can apply the above, presumably their upgrades later, improved critical, and deadly aim (for the non touch attack K-blasts)
You know Infusion Specialization reduces burn as level gets higher, right?
so until 5th level the class slowly gets worse, if it would like to use its class features to the max and at level 5 it can only mitigate 1 option and only for the form/substance you grabbed at level 1 so that if you wish to use both a form and substance you require level 8 to not take the burn again only on your level 1 options.
at level 6 for instance you can grab your first higher tier substance/form and you take 3 burn for its use, even with a a move action to reduce burn and your specialization focused for form/substance you can only use that class feature 5+con times a day and this is assuming you never get hit between uses or that your enemy does not ready to attack you when you are gathering power. Admittedly 5+con is quite a few uses for your highest level power (a good comparison is the summoners summon monster which is 3+cha) but other classes do not become weaker when using class features. Also there is as I have said the fact that you can use your highest level power less often than you could at level 1. Further this is also assuming you did not want to actually combine form and substance because than you can only use it 2+ con/2 times and that is with a 1 burn other.
Essentially it is nice that you reduce the burn some but it is still not enough to scale well.
Zwordsman wrote:
And like a spell caster, the idea assumes your actually putting worth while attention into your "casting" stat. Since every point of con, gives you hp worth a point of burn and raises your burns per day.
I ignored con for my example because it gives a static boost no matter your level to the amount of burn you can take (which is good) but does not actually increase your burn threshold beyond level 1
3. At first I liked the concept of burn, however upon further thought I to think it is a little much. My main concern is that the amount of burn you can actually take decreases as you level but the amount of burn you are likely going to take increases. to explain my logic look at a level 1 Kineticist vs a level 3 average HP. Ignoring con the level 1 kineticist can take 8 points of burn, 1 per HP, in contrast the level 2 can only take 6 points, 3x6 = 18 average HP. This is in contrast to every other class where their features grow exponentially. Ether the class requires an easier time mitigating burn or the burn needs to scale slower. If the move action mitigated the entire burn on a single chosen form or essence rather...
I just wanted to point out that you're confusing terms here. Burn =/= hit points. At 20th level, for example, each 1 point of Burn has the consequence of inflicting 20 nonlethal damage. You also say "ignoring Con"; you can only take a number of points of Burn equal to 3 + CON mod, so the amount of Burn you can take is constant at all levels, only rising as your stat rises. The amount of nonlethal damage you can take is what is shifting. My math shows that when you factor in your CON score, a point of Burn fluctuates between causing about 1/12 to 1/9 of your total hit points in nonlethal damage.
Am I the only one, who, not ever having seen Avatar, instead though of Carrie (Stephen King) when they first considered this class?
The first one that came to my mind was Firestarter.
The second was Kaze no Stigma. Pyro-kineticist+Kinetic Blade->"Hideo Enraiha!" Air->Kazuma...though he's basically mythic since he could influence effects on a continental/planetary scale.
Carrie was a bit of an after thought...
I honestly didn't even think about Avatar...still traumatized from the live action film so my memory has blocked it out. And to this day, every time I hear "bender" all I think about is Futurama and if somehow a robot got psychic powers. :)
Just had a thought...perhaps on a lesser scale, if kineticists formed "contracts" with elementals or even had a stronger tie to their elemental plane (kind of like kinetic form talent but all elements could access it) add some sort of effective caster level boost. I'd say make it a 10th level power...but they are already struggling to either a scaling class feature (at say 5th/10th/15th?) or maybe a scaling feat.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of Kaze no Stigma.
I just wanted to point out that you're confusing terms here. Burn =/= hit points. At 20th level, for example, each 1 point of Burn has the consequence of inflicting 20 nonlethal damage. You also say "ignoring Con"; you can only take a number of points of Burn equal to 3 + CON mod, so the amount of Burn you can take is constant at all levels, only rising as your stat rises. The amount of nonlethal damage you can take is what is shifting. My math shows that when you factor in your CON score, a point of Burn fluctuates between causing about 1/12 to 1/9 of your total hit points in nonlethal damage.
I'll admit I was ignoring the 3+con because I forgot and was giving the class the benefit of the doubt that it could burn itself unconscious. With that reminder the issue then lies in the fact that to use all of the classes power for the day (so 3+ con burn) it leaves the class with only 43 HP at level 20. Seems a little unreasonable when you consider the summoner (again for convenience ) can summon the same number of monster from the level 9 list without losing a single HP. Yes non lethal is not lethal but when lethal+nonlethal+1 = HP total you are just as unconscious as if lethal +1 = HP which means you are just as useless to the party.
I just wanted to point out that you're confusing terms here. Burn =/= hit points. At 20th level, for example, each 1 point of Burn has the consequence of inflicting 20 nonlethal damage. You also say "ignoring Con"; you can only take a number of points of Burn equal to 3 + CON mod, so the amount of Burn you can take is constant at all levels, only rising as your stat rises. The amount of nonlethal damage you can take is what is shifting. My math shows that when you factor in your CON score, a point of Burn fluctuates between causing about 1/12 to 1/9 of your total hit points in nonlethal damage.
I'll admit I was ignoring the 3+con because I forgot and was giving the class the benefit of the doubt that it could burn itself unconscious. With that reminder the issue then lies in the fact that to use all of the classes power for the day (so 3+ con burn) it leaves the class with only 43 HP at level 20. Seems a little unreasonable when you consider the summoner (again for convenience ) can summon the same number of monster from the level 9 list without losing a single HP. Yes non lethal is not lethal but when lethal+nonlethal+1 = HP total you are just as unconscious as if lethal +1 = HP which means you are just as useless to the party.
Assuming you start with an 18 in CON, you can reasonably assume a 28 by 20th level (possibly more, but lets go with that for now). That plus full starting and average rolls means you get to about 274 hit points.
You need to top off your burn pool if you want to keep your to-hit (outside of touch) relevant at this point, which maxes out at 6 points of Burn and 120 nonlethal damage. So to have your full Feel the Burn buff, you're looking at your effective hp at 20th level being 154.
The largest number of points of burn you can take is 12, so the lowest you can drop your hit points is 34 (basically one hit by anything).
Infusion Specialization potentially lowers the Burn from your favorite attack by 6 over the course of your character life. Composite Specialization lowers the cost of composites by 1, and Metakinetic Master lowers the cost of one type of metakinesis by 1. Presumably, if you're smart you can stack those all up for a total burn savings of 8. An empowered, maximized, quickened, doubled composite blast deals 12 points of Burn, reduced to 4, which you could do again sans quicken for 1 more point of burn, for a total of 4 maximized and empowered composite blasts and 5 burn.
You'd want to go nova at least once a day just to be functional, but after that you've got a little more choice in how often you do that. Has anyone run the numbers on what that sequence of attacks look like DPR-wise? The first 2 would get a +5 to attack and damage, the second two get +6.
**EDIT**
Looks like Blueflame Blast would be 191/191/192/192 at 20/20/21/21 to-hit before factoring in Dex. Assuming you also bring Dex up to comparative levels (call it 24 since your level bonuses went to Con) that's 27/27/28/28 vs. touch AC. Then go ahead and cut those numbers by 3/4 when determining your contributions because there's only one CR 20 monster that isn't immune to fire. The CR 23 Solar has resistance, and the Tarrasque is also immune, so that trend holds true as you continue along. Doesn't look terribly better at lower levels either as most of the CR 19's are either heavily resistant or immune (unless you're pissing off silver dragons). 2 of the 3 CR 18's are commonly encountered underwater and will also be incredibly difficult for a pyrokineticist to harm.
...
Probably need to run these numbers with an earth/aether, air/water, or earth/water as those seem to be the only composites capable of dealing competitive and consistent damage during the last 5 levels.
One reason I'm still kinda hoping for a slight change. I still like the con in free burn before it starts hurting, or more preferably 3+con or con then anything after that starts burning your CON stat directly. and your allowed to burn yourself to straight up death.
though that allows some "free bursts" for those who like bursting. but it also allows for free heals, or using decent amount of power throughout the day.
You really only burn your con stat (and thereby your hp and fort saves) when you absolutely feel the need to murder yourself to murder them. Instead of murdering yourself to try and be more useful in afight.
My problem when half testing is that I usualy end up spending a quarter o r so on the defense option in the morning to get defense and to activate Feel The Burn. which is pretty usuable in that sytem.
Alternative is like others said with feats that give you a burnable pool--but man not enough feats as it is.
but I can not do the crazy lv 20 math stuff. which probably throws lots out of whack with its crazy numbers
Am I the only one, who, not ever having seen Avatar, instead though of Carrie (Stephen King) when they first considered this class?
I saw that, after Roy Mustang.
I am not a fan of Avatar. Bender, or the smurf ones.
Said it before, saying it again - Muldoon Priestesses.
Insert HipsterCat images here if need be.
Unrelated - with Aether being the demonstrably 'weakest' of the elements, I think that they should have access to, as part of the Aether set of traits, access to exploding dice. Specifically, due to having lower damage dice, Aetherkineticists should have the ability to have damage dice explode to a MAXIMUM number times equal to their level, up to a certain number of levels, followed by an uncapping at another further level point, and then culminating in it being completely uncapped as part of their level 20 endcap rewards. For using it as a combined element attack, it should allow other element dice damage to explode up to one quarter to maybe half level value, going up to one-half to three quarters with burn.
Someone mentioned earlier that the kineticist should be wisdom based to fit in with its Avatar inspiration; while I don't think pigeonholing the class into being entirely bender is a great idea, making wisdom be the to-hit and even the AC stat for kineticists makes a good deal of sense. You split the stat reliance between a belt and a headband, reducing item costs by 18k compared to the Belt of Physical Might. You also give the kineticist a strong will save since a sky high wisdom will certainly make up for a weak progression. The kineticist would have a poor initiative, but on a class that primarily does damage in combat that isn't too much of a burden.
You'd want to limit the wis-to-hit to blasts (including kinetic blade and the like) to prevent dipping but overall this seems like a good boost to the class.
Someone mentioned earlier that the kineticist should be wisdom based to fit in with its Avatar inspiration; while I don't think pigeonholing the class into being entirely bender is a great idea, making wisdom be the to-hit and even the AC stat for kineticists makes a good deal of sense. You split the stat reliance between a belt and a headband, reducing item costs by 18k compared to the Belt of Physical Might. You also give the kineticist a strong will save since a sky high wisdom will certainly make up for a weak progression. The kineticist would have a poor initiative, but on a class that primarily does damage in combat that isn't too much of a burden.
You'd want to limit the wis-to-hit to blasts (including kinetic blade and the like) to prevent dipping but overall this seems like a good boost to the class.
I disagree sir. Taking a class with dependent on two attributes (dex, con) and adding a third attribute (wis) is not something I agree helps the class. Remember you still need Dex to qualify for feats and such.
Regarding Burn.
For this exercise we will make full use of one of key class abilities and max out Feel the Burn in the mornings to keep up our to hit.
Core game, 15 point buy: 8,10,12,13,14,15. So...14 Con and 15 Dex(assume 17 post-racial)? Increases to Dex to assist with hitting like any typical ranged build.
HP with max FtB(+1) at 3rd: 20
HP with max FtB(+6) at 20th: 13
Thoughts: you'd better be either putting stat adds and buying belts of con just to compete with an Elf Wizard's hit points or not falling unconscious in the morning. Never mind at 20th the wizard has been wishing enemy parties into the sun for 3 levels. And he has other options such as Infernal Healing, Vampiric Touch, False Life...and all the joys of Tier 1 casting.
Speaking of elf...try this with an elf (-2 con). At 20th level, if your character hits an anti-magic shell and his belt of con stops working...well he's been in a coma for 5 levels when his daily starting hp dropped to -4.
So yes I love the concept and roleplaying this class (my playtest kineticist just hit 3rd.) I do feel that the fundamental mathematics of the class fall apart the higher you go.
...What do you need dexterity to qualify for? Precise Shot has no dex requirement and Improved Precise Shot is replaced by the Snaking Wild Talent. I guess there's Deadly Aim but I question the usefulness of that feat.
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Dex does add to accuracy which has been a problem with this class. It also adds to AC and Ref Saves, Initiative and is used to figure the DC's of AoE blasts.
Well... yes, I was suggesting that we use wisdom instead of dexterity for accuracy/AC/DC's. Kineticist has a good reflex save already and initiative would just be a weak point. As what basically amounts to a martial character I'd rather have low initiative than a low will save.
I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned a Harry Dresden build. I think it'd work quite well for him. Though for a perfect build he'd have to multiclass probably for his tracking and wards and such.
so until 5th level the class slowly gets worse, if it would like to use its class features to the max and at level 5 it can only mitigate 1 option and only for the form/substance you grabbed at level 1 so that if you wish to use both a form and substance you require level 8 to not take the burn again only on your level 1 options.
at level 6 for instance you can grab your first higher tier substance/form and you take 3 burn for its use, even with a a move action to reduce burn and your specialization focused for form/substance you can only use that class feature 5+con times a day and this is assuming you never get hit between uses or that your enemy does not ready to attack you when you are gathering power. Admittedly 5+con is quite a few uses for your highest level power (a good comparison is the summoners summon monster which is 3+cha) but other classes do not become weaker when using class features.
so many things that seem wrong here,
first of the you chose infusion specialization effects all of that type of infusions not just a specific infusion
second 6th lvl infusions cost 2 (1 if it makes you infusion specialization) not 3 unless you using a composite with it which you can't due to a 2 burn a round limit.
third you can only combine 1 form and 1 substance infusion on a blast and this can't be done with composite because of 2 burn a round limit. at lvl 6 it might be less burn a round
You'd want to go nova at least once a day just to be functional, but after that you've got a little more choice in how often you do that. Has anyone run the numbers on what that sequence of attacks look like DPR-wise? The first 2 would get a +5 to attack and damage, the second two get +6.
I haven't run that particular sequence because Double is a huge trap in general and that's an illegal combination in particular. A 20th level Kineticist has a burn-per-round cap of 6, so it's possible to fire one Double Quickened Blast if you took Metakinetic Master in one of those two (unwise) and spent no other burn over the course of the round. Because of that, you're almost always going to be better off spending that 4 Burn on something like Maximizing two separate Blasts (to say nothing of the fact that, to make Quickened-Doubled even possible, you have to sacrifice free Empowered on every attack).
Best I got out of a nova attack was in the 900s in damage though-- something like 70+213x4. You need to consistently hit regular AC, which is a pain for the Kineticist, but if you can do that your damage gets funny.
I'm kind of surprised that no one mentioned a Harry Dresden build. I think it'd work quite well for him. Though for a perfect build he'd have to multiclass probably for his tracking and wards and such.
The Dresden builds are in the Occultist discussion.
The levels are the spell level. So, because Entangling Infusion is 4th level, your DC is 14+CON mod. I'll leave it to the people more familiar with the Bestiary as to how long that'll continue being useful.
I thought everything would be DC based off of the Blast. since they modify blasts and blasts specificall ystates their spell level.
but i'll honest some of the "levels" of the infusions confuse me.. they have chacter level so i'm not sure what the level refers to persay.
The "Level" entry in the talent/infusion stat block refers to the equivalent spell level.
And the DC's for infused blasts are based on the blasts themselves. On top of that, the blast DC's scale with class level at a rate of 1 per 2 class levels. The description of the blast ability has more info.
Ah.. that feels so weird.. so you can modify a lv 9 "spell" aka the blast at lv 18, into lv 4 effect but still doing the lv 9 spell level worth of blasts?
I kind of figured that the DC was always based off the blast itself. That has the potential to make some of the things less useful later I guess.
Assuming I'm not misundrstanding..
You'd want to go nova at least once a day just to be functional, but after that you've got a little more choice in how often you do that. Has anyone run the numbers on what that sequence of attacks look like DPR-wise? The first 2 would get a +5 to attack and damage, the second two get +6.
I haven't run that particular sequence because Double is a huge trap in general and that's an illegal combination in particular. A 20th level Kineticist has a burn-per-round cap of 6, so it's possible to fire one Double Quickened Blast if you took Metakinetic Master in one of those two (unwise) and spent no other burn over the course of the round. Because of that, you're almost always going to be better off spending that 4 Burn on something like Maximizing two separate Blasts (to say nothing of the fact that, to make Quickened-Doubled even possible, you have to sacrifice free Empowered on every attack).
Best I got out of a nova attack was in the 900s in damage though-- something like 70+213x4. You need to consistently hit regular AC, which is a pain for the Kineticist, but if you can do that your damage gets funny.
It's not illegal. As I pointed out, you can reduce the Burn costs down to where you're only taking 4 points of Burn to stack empowered, maximized, quickened, and doubled to a composite blast. In fact, it looks a lot like that's what you're supposed to do to get the equivalent of a full attack routine.
**Edit** Correction, I was misapplying the reduction from Infusion Specialization. The best you could do is Quicken/Maximize/Empower the first one and Maximize/Empower/Double the second, for 3 attacks at the previously listed numbers. Basically I was adding one attack too many. Can you use two form Infusions simultaneously? If so, it seems like you could make up the missing attack with some AoE damage by going Magma and applying the Explosion and Impale forms to all attacks.
You'd want to go nova at least once a day just to be functional, but after that you've got a little more choice in how often you do that. Has anyone run the numbers on what that sequence of attacks look like DPR-wise? The first 2 would get a +5 to attack and damage, the second two get +6.
I haven't run that particular sequence because Double is a huge trap in general and that's an illegal combination in particular. A 20th level Kineticist has a burn-per-round cap of 6, so it's possible to fire one Double Quickened Blast if you took Metakinetic Master in one of those two (unwise) and spent no other burn over the course of the round. Because of that, you're almost always going to be better off spending that 4 Burn on something like Maximizing two separate Blasts (to say nothing of the fact that, to make Quickened-Doubled even possible, you have to sacrifice free Empowered on every attack).
Best I got out of a nova attack was in the 900s in damage though-- something like 70+213x4. You need to consistently hit regular AC, which is a pain for the Kineticist, but if you can do that your damage gets funny.
It's not illegal. As I pointed out, you can reduce the Burn costs down to where you're only taking 4 points of Burn to stack empowered, maximized, quickened, and doubled to a composite blast. In fact, it looks a lot like that's what you're supposed to do to get the equivalent of a full attack routine.
I'm not sure how you're doing that. Care to walk me through it?
All of those things add up to 12 Burn (2 Composite, 1 Empower, 2 Maximize, 3 Quicken, 4 Double).
You can reduce it by 1 with Metakinetic Master (11), 1 with Composite Specialization (10), 1 with a Move action to gather Energy (9).
It's not illegal. As I pointed out, you can reduce the Burn costs down to where you're only taking 4 points of Burn to stack empowered, maximized, quickened, and doubled to a composite blast. In fact, it looks a lot like that's what you're supposed to do to get the equivalent of a full attack routine.
**Edit** Correction, I was misapplying the reduction from Infusion Specialization. The best you could do is Quicken/Maximize/Empower the first one and Maximize/Empower/Double the second, for 3 attacks at the previously listed numbers. Basically I was adding one attack too many. Can you use two form Infusions simultaneously? If so, it seems like you could make up the missing attack with some AoE damage by going Magma and applying the Explosion and Impale forms to all attacks.
Only one Form and one Substance Infusion on each attack.
Quicken+Maximize+Empower paired with Maximize+Empower+Double is still not possible.
Kineticists have two caps in place on their Burn. The first is the total Burn they can willingly accept, equal to 3+their Con modifier. But they have a secondary cap, of the amount of Burn they can accept per round, equal to their Kineticist level/3 (rounded up before level 3, rounded down afterwards). The requisite text:
Quote:
A kineticist incapable of suffering nonlethal damage cannot accept burn, and a kineticist can’t choose to accept more than 1 point of burn in a single round. This limit rises to 2 points of burn at 6th level, and it rises by 1 point of burn for every 3 levels thereafter. A kineticist can never choose to accept burn if it would put her total points of burn over her Constitution modifier + 3, though she can be forced to accept more burn from a source outside her control.
Assuming you use Metakinetic Master on Empower and a Move Action, Quicken+Maximize+Empower comes to (3+2+1-1-1)= 4 Burn. Maximize+Empower+Double would then come to (4+2+1-1)= 6 Burn. This is 10 Burn, which is a full 4 Burn over your per-round cap.
This is why I called Double a trap. It costs so much Burn that you can't do anything else useful for a nova assault over the course of the round, combined with not stacking with Kinetic Blade/Whip (the preferred source of high-level damage dealing due to iterative attacks).
Compare what you can do with six burn, one item, and a whole lot of Wild Talents:
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-Arashi the Hydrokineticist who takes Expanded Element (Air) twice (though only once is needed, twice allows flexibility).
-Weapon Finesse, Kinetic Whip
-Extreme Range, Ride the Blast
-Chilling Infusion (not actually needed but costs nothing)
-Greater Kinetic Form
-Infusion Specialization: Form x2, Substance x3
-Metakinetic Master on Empowered
-Con stat is 34 (18 + 5 level + 6 belt + 5 Wish)
-Dex stat is 32 (16 + 6 belt + 4 Wish + 6 Elemental Body IV (Air))
-Arashi owns Boots of Speed
-The fight begins within a range of 480 feet
Arashi carries around 6 Burn as a fact of life; keeping his Feel the Burn maxed (and incidentally, letting him run around as a Huge Elemental and keeping his AC bonus off Shroud of Water high).
34 is a +12 modifier, giving him a burn cap of 15, though he can only unleash six burn in a given round. That's his nova option then.
He identifies his target, and begins the fight with a Quickened (+3) Empowered (+1-1=0) Extreme Range (+2-2=0) Chilling (+3-3=0) Cold Blast (0) with Ride the Blast (0). He's eating three Burn off that attack, and it will do (10D6+6+6)*1.5= an average of 70 damage.
Arashi is now in melee with his target. He activates a Maximized (+2) Empowered (+1-1=0) Kinetic Whip (+2-2=0) Chilling (+3-3=0) Blizzard Blast (+2-1=1), for three additional burn, and full attacks. That'll do (20*6+20+12+6) + (10*3.5+10+6+3) damage, an average of 212 per attack, and Arashi has a total of four attacks, including his Boots of Speed.
Total average damage, assuming no crits but perfect accuracy, = 70+212*4= 918 damage. Each hit forces a Fort save at DC28 (I think; not entirely clear on how the DCs act just yet but I'm reasonably sure that's right) to avoid a Stagger.
Obviously sustainable offense is lower (average 70), though it'll still be above 110 once Arashi closes to melee and full attacks (average 211 without Boots of Speed, 282 with).
This also assumes there are no concerns with accuracy or various resistances, the latter of which is somewhat problematic because Blizzard Blast hits basically every defense possible, but even at CR20 there are lots of creatures where that's not particularly relevant and I'm still hoping for a better way to solve the accuracy issue than touch blasts. If, however, Arashi is up against a target with an AC too high to reliably hit, he will fall back on Touch blasts. If the AC is lower, Arashi would use a Water Elemental form instead to increase his Con.
That's the highest I've been able to legally hit under the 6 Burn per round cap. Quicken is incredibly useful, Maximize is somewhat situational but still useful as a quick and dirty damage booster, Empower is nice because it's so cheap, but Double just costs too much.
Put me down for a 15' cone level-one option. I'd be happy to see it a couple different ways. You could either do it as an additional simple blast. It would work well for fire and aether, both of which should have an additional option. It would also be good as a level one+burn one form infusion.
As an aside, while I see the comparisons to the 3.5 warlock, it's the 4e elementalist sorceror that this class seems to be modeled more closely after.
Yeah... why Spray requires 10th level and automatically halves your damage is beyond me. I'd love that as a 1st level ability; maybe 6th tops. It's what, a slightly better Burning Hands at 1st level?
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