Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, this is partially a whine, but also I want to know if I'm doing something wrong, what should I be doing right? I know there are rogues out there who are happy with their role, but I get the feeling those rogues are taking lots of fighter feats. I'm pretty certain there are people out there who want to be rogues but are put off by simple things not working/implemented.
The last MMORPG I played was WoW. I played a rogue, I knew my role: get behind the mob; stab it in the back until it falls over; don't get aggro; top the damage table; occasionally disable a trap.
So far in PFO it is: stand a long way from the fight and fire arrows and hope you are hitting the same target as the tank otherwise run and probably die.
When soloing, I can manage up to 4 white mobs (no casters), or 1 yellow.
I have +2 footpad's leathers, +2 shortbow, +1 steel short sword (nearly all thanks to Sspitfire!). I currently have Daredevil role, Swashbuckler armor feat (would prefer Scout but it doesn't go with the armor).
In melee I use thrust in the hope of applying flatfooted, followed by compound. That combination will normally take out mobs in 2 shots.
Ranged, depends what the mobs are and how many of them. For the weaker whites I hit 1 with distant shot, tab to the next, hit it with distant shot, then with the exploit that can cause a bleed. With tougher mobs I will sneak up to hit them with the bleed (it won't cause a bleed because they are not flat footed, but it has the highest damage multiplier) and another exploit first.
I have 1 maneuver that I can use - string bolas, but using that actually means it takes more shots to kill a mob than not using it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree on all points, usually I always include a couple of rouge levels in my character builds, but will probably drop them in EE.
As I see it there are several missing parts of the world that makes the Rogue less than interesting to play.
They can be summarized in three words: Nothing to steal!
No traps!
No pockets to pick!
No locks to pick!
Sneak attacks ... Mjnaaaa...
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Does stealth get you close enough to get the first melee attack in?
Based on my tests with the mechanics, and feedback I've read on the forums here, I don't think that is intended to happen in this game.
The stealth system for PFO has evidently been designed to prevent stealth ganking, and reduce it to "surprise I just popped out of nowhere no less than 10 meters away ganking".
I think stealth will still be useful, but they're taking steps to eliminate the kind of invisible stealth backstabs you see in other MMOs.
I think it sucks, but I'd be happier if they added modifiers like nighttime and certain terrain types (forests) that boost stealth enough to allow for quasi-invisible ganking.
That would make it so day time in farmland is very safe, and night-time in forests would be very dangerous - as it should be.
https://pathfinderonlinecrowdforging.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Make-Hex-terrain-t ype-and-day-night-affect-stealth-perception/53607-30320
Using only the Scout armor feat, I wasn't able to get into ranged weapon range while stealthed, with only a moderate investment in stealth points, vs. a lowbie player.
With Chameleon and a significant disparity between Stealth / enemy Perception, you may be able to pull some stuff off. It will probably require a significant investment in Stealth though.
When I think about this, that may not be completely bad, since it prevents people from being uber assassins without having made a serious investment in that path.
However, I think making environmental modifiers to stealth/perception is a must, since even an amateur scout should be able to stay mostly invisible in the woods at night time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When soloing, I can manage up to 4 white mobs (no casters), or 1 yellow.
I have +2 footpad's leathers, +2 shortbow, +1 steel short sword (nearly all thanks to Sspitfire!). I currently have Daredevil role, Swashbuckler armor feat (would prefer Scout but it doesn't go with the armor).
In melee I use thrust in the hope of applying flatfooted, followed by compound. That combination will normally take out mobs in 2 shots.
I think the trick/trouble with rogues is they might be strongest fighting in support of other characters. Soloing, you'll often need to get the target flatfooted with one attack. In a team, the fighter can apply the flat-footed, or you might get it with the Cut-Throat role on any target that doesn't focus on you. Also the DoT of compound is going to matter more on higher level enemies - the orange and reds you can't solo, but can face with a small group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes Stealth need some love, but not making it into invisibility.
Other stuff to concider;
Perhaps Rouges should be able to stealth up to NPCs and pickpocket them for small stuff, Like coins, recepies, scrolls, implements...
Perhaps be able to sneak into settlemnts during nigth time and stealing secrets from Crafters (ie recieps or a material or two) (using stealth, lockpick, trap-finding-disabling).
Perhaps high level camps are trapped...
Perhaps NPC camps can be robbed...
Stealing stuff from PC is a bit more complicated....
All of this above should of course be with conciderable risk and when used against PC settlements connected to Reputation loss (at least) if discovered.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Are your feats appropriate for your equipment?
For a while I would use the Opporunist class feature with Unbreakable and a greatsword, just for the base damage increase vs opportunity.
I haven't checked the current iteration of light armor, but I couldn't find a case in the α7 patch where the rogue armor feat was superior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't checked the current iteration of light armor, but I couldn't find a case in the α7 patch where the rogue armor feat was superior.
Depends on what is 'superior'. If the bottom line is PvE general mob kills idk.
Chameleon provides superior stealth, persuasion and crit chance. Scout provides superior speed, ranged attack, perception and stealth. Swashbuckler provides superior light melee attack.
What is the advantage of light melee attack? Lower stamina attacks resulting in more chances to apply affects?
Also what is the advantage of slotting an offhand weapon? I've tried testing two weapon fighting with daggers and I'm not sure if I see any effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also what is the advantage of slotting an offhand weapon? I've tried testing two weapon fighting with daggers and I'm not sure if I see any effect.
If you're wielding a dagger in each hand, there is no effect. You're using dagger primary and secondary attacks.
If you wield a longsword (or whatever) in your main hand and a dagger in your off hand, the effect is that you replace the longsword secondary attacks with the dagger secondary attacks.
How useful that is depends on the attacks, I imagine. It might mean a different set of secondary attack effects. It might mean a set of fast, low stamina secondaries. It might depend on exploiting states like opportunity or flat-footed.
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Feeling the same. So far, the rogue role seems to have no benefits at all. While I'm not a "total immersion" player, I do have a character idea and I want to stick to it. That was, sort of, a big selling point of PFO...play how you want to, build the character you want to play, everyone has a place. As it is, you can still play any style you wish, it's just that your character will kind of suck.
As a halfling, Hobson will use a short bow, a short sword, and wear light armor. I plan on starting with EE, but I will probably only level a couple of feats and stuff to level 2 or 3 and hope they catch rogues up one day (yes, the same Thrust, Compound, Distant Shot...). That means banking possibly months worth of xp while I play a mostly "nerfed" character. I'm ok with this, but I am probably in the minority here.
I, like a lot of others, am here to play the game, not beat the game. Otherwise, I'd be rocking heavy armor, a longbow, and a wand, like many power players. I'm going for the long game here. If they never fix rogues and I quit playing, at least I played the character I wanted for a while instead of playing what I felt I had to in order to stay "competitive".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also what is the advantage of slotting an offhand weapon? I've tried testing two weapon fighting with daggers and I'm not sure if I see any effect.If you're wielding a dagger in each hand, there is no effect. You're using dagger primary and secondary attacks.
If you wield a longsword (or whatever) in your main hand and a dagger in your off hand, the effect is that you replace the longsword secondary attacks with the dagger secondary attacks.
How useful that is depends on the attacks, I imagine. It might mean a different set of secondary attack effects. It might mean a set of fast, low stamina secondaries. It might depend on exploiting states like opportunity or flat-footed.
Hey Urman, how does the UI differentiate secondary attacks from main ones? Is there a tooltip, or? I haven't played enough to test this...in the middle of a big move.
Oh, and thanks to Sspitfire also, I finally got to test a piece of +eq.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...how does the UI differentiate secondary attacks from main ones?
Pre-purchase, there's no in-game way: off to the spreadsheets! Post-purchase, when one begins to drag to the hotbar, either slots 1-3 or 4-6 will light up, so one'll know where one can legitimately drop.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another big problem with rogues right now is that slotting any of the Sneak Attack feats will hurt you. They're Reactive feats. Right now any Reactive feat that triggers will affect your target, but it will also affect you. Sneak attacking yourself does not make for an effective rogue.
The power disparity between short and long bows also hurts rogues. Even when you get beyond the white mobs that a long bow can kill with one hit, the damage output of a long bow still out-guns a short bow.
Yeah, rogues are definitely getting the short end of the stick right now. Let's hope that changes soon.
Edit: The folks at GW have said that stealthing into melee range for a giant surprise backstab is not an intended feature of the rogue role. They like to point out that tabletop Pathfinder rogues don't rely on that tactic. It's more of an AD&D 1st Edition holdover attitude. I don't think that's the very best argument for them to make, because a lot of other things about PFO don't try to replicate tabletop Pathfinder, but they keep bringing it up...
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Ok, this is partially a whine, but also I want to know if I'm doing something wrong, what should I be doing right? I know there are rogues out there who are happy with their role, but I get the feeling those rogues are taking lots of fighter feats. I'm pretty certain there are people out there who want to be rogues but are put off by simple things not working/implemented.
The last MMORPG I played was WoW. I played a rogue, I knew my role: get behind the mob; stab it in the back until it falls over; don't get aggro; top the damage table; occasionally disable a trap.
So far in PFO it is: stand a long way from the fight and fire arrows and hope you are hitting the same target as the tank otherwise run and probably die.
When soloing, I can manage up to 4 white mobs (no casters), or 1 yellow.
I have +2 footpad's leathers, +2 shortbow, +1 steel short sword (nearly all thanks to Sspitfire!). I currently have Daredevil role, Swashbuckler armor feat (would prefer Scout but it doesn't go with the armor).
In melee I use thrust in the hope of applying flatfooted, followed by compound. That combination will normally take out mobs in 2 shots.
Ranged, depends what the mobs are and how many of them. For the weaker whites I hit 1 with distant shot, tab to the next, hit it with distant shot, then with the exploit that can cause a bleed. With tougher mobs I will sneak up to hit them with the bleed (it won't cause a bleed because they are not flat footed, but it has the highest damage multiplier) and another exploit first.
I have 1 maneuver that I can use - string bolas, but using that actually means it takes more shots to kill a mob than not using it.
Sorry I didn't read everything else (my mind is foggy and doesn't want to process all the extra info). A few thoughts:
1. Have you played with Dot things like applying heavy amounts of bleed or afflicted? Now that they have fixed the recovery mechanics for those, spamming one single dagger attack can put Bleed 20 or 30 on a target in a round. (I have daggers if you need daggers.)
2. Have you tried the "Feint" Utility yet? It is fairly cheap stamina wise, gives flat-footed for one round, and cools down in one round.
3. Maybe rogues are not meant to be able to take multiple targets? Maybe yall are meant to get on a single target and trash its defenses or stack it up with/maintain DoT stacks on it? Those can be *very* lethal to a heavily armored character since nothing about heavy armor protects against Bleed or Afflicted, especially if you have brought the target's Reflex down even more beyond the Heavy Armor's -20 Reflex penalty. Oh, and Burning, too.
4. Once reactives are working, your rogue reactives will make applying flat-footed all the more valuable.
5. Armor is not properly balanced yet, so soloing big targets in light armor is a lot rougher than doing it in heavy. Your problems are compounded by the fact that not only do you get less HP from matching KW, you also have WAY less physical resistance. So right now life in Light Armor just sucks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...how does the UI differentiate secondary attacks from main ones?Pre-purchase, there's no in-game way: off to the spreadsheets! Post-purchase, when one begins to drag to the hotbar, either slots 1-3 or 4-6 will light up, so one'll know where one can legitimately drop.
Thank you Jazz!
Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.
True that. But you know what is really stunning? If Kradlum puts on +2 Hide and Steel Banded and slots Level 5 Dragoon, his bonus to Light Melee will be EXACTLY the same as slotting L5 Swashbuckler with +2 Footpads.
Edit: Well ok, 1 point less. Boo-hoo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.True that. But you know what is really stunning? If Kradlum puts on +2 Hide and Steel Banded and slots Level 5 Dragoon, his bonus to Light Melee will be EXACTLY the same as slotting L5 Swashbuckler with +2 Footpads.
Edit: Well ok, 1 point less. Boo-hoo.
I'm afraid I'm not well enough versed in all of the feats to know why that's stunning. Would you mind expanding that thought a little?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only thing that makes a rogue a rogue is the Rogue Kit implement and its manoeuvrings, stealth and everything else is available to all classes.
EXAMPLE:
My cleric fighter has trained stealth and perception fairly high just because they are useful. He also, more or less accidentally, acquired a lot of subterfuge points.
Yesterday I trained Rogue Kit because it was only 99 XP and no reason why not and instantly went from no levels of rogue at all to rogue 6.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only thing that makes a rogue a rogue is the Rogue Kit implement and its manoeuvrings, stealth and everything else is available to all classes.
EXAMPLE:
My cleric fighter has trained stealth and perception fairly high just because they are useful. He also, more or less accidentally, acquired a lot of subterfuge points.
Yesterday I trained Rogue Kit because it was only 99 XP and no reason why not and instantly went from no levels of rogue at all to rogue 6.
Something like that happened to me when I finally got around to training the trophy charm for fighter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something like that happened to me when I finally got around to training the trophy charm for fighter.The only thing that makes a rogue a rogue is the Rogue Kit implement and its manoeuvrings, stealth and everything else is available to all classes.
EXAMPLE:
My cleric fighter has trained stealth and perception fairly high just because they are useful. He also, more or less accidentally, acquired a lot of subterfuge points.
Yesterday I trained Rogue Kit because it was only 99 XP and no reason why not and instantly went from no levels of rogue at all to rogue 6.
Seems to be the way of it.
Another example also from yesterday is I wanted to kill a lot of gobbos to get green so threw a few k XP at some arcane feats and divine attack bonus and gave my cleric a staff so he could knock them down en-mass without running up and whirlwind-ing them. After roughly 3 hours of knocking low level stuff over he had 15 arcane points (150 kills off arcane 6 and 21 points) and when I trained spellbook he jumped from no wizzie levels to wizzie 5.
BASICALLY - the real difference between a Rogue and a Fighter or cleric using rogue weapons and feats is going to be the Rogue Kit and the maneuvers that go with it. A true rogue will have an advanced rogue kit of some sort and level 2 or 3 maneuvers.
I'm afraid I'm not well enough versed in all of the feats to know why that's stunning. Would you mind expanding that thought a little?Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.True that. But you know what is really stunning? If Kradlum puts on +2 Hide and Steel Banded and slots Level 5 Dragoon, his bonus to Light Melee will be EXACTLY the same as slotting L5 Swashbuckler with +2 Footpads.
Edit: Well ok, 1 point less. Boo-hoo.
He can give up the Light Armor and his Rogue Armor Feat for a Fighter Armor Feat and Heavy Melee and be just as good at doing all of his rogue things while also having that much more HP and Physical Resistance. Other than Role Play purposes, there is absolutely no reason to use Swashbuckler and Light Armor right now.
Oh yeah, and Dragoon will also increase his versatility since it gives the same attack bonus to Heavy Melee AND it gives an Improved Critical Hit bonus that the Swashbuckler doesn't have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm afraid I'm not well enough versed in all of the feats to know why that's stunning. Would you mind expanding that thought a little?Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.True that. But you know what is really stunning? If Kradlum puts on +2 Hide and Steel Banded and slots Level 5 Dragoon, his bonus to Light Melee will be EXACTLY the same as slotting L5 Swashbuckler with +2 Footpads.
Edit: Well ok, 1 point less. Boo-hoo.
He can give up the Light Armor and his Rogue Armor Feat for a Fighter Armor Feat and Heavy Melee and be just as good at doing all of his rogue things while also having that much more HP and Physical Resistance. Other than Role Play purposes, there is absolutely no reason to use Swashbuckler and Light Armor right now.
Oh yeah, and Dragoon will also increase his versatility since it gives the same attack bonus to Heavy Melee AND it gives an Improved Critical Hit bonus that the Swashbuckler doesn't have.
Thanks for the explanation.
Now that I understand it, that might be the single most depressing post in this thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm afraid I'm not well enough versed in all of the feats to know why that's stunning. Would you mind expanding that thought a little?Sspitfire - Medium armor seems pointless right now, too. It doesn't have the physical resistance of heavy armor, or the energy resistance of cloth armor. At the moment, both of the middle types of armor are pretty sad. The only reasons to wear either of them are the rogue and cleric armor feats.True that. But you know what is really stunning? If Kradlum puts on +2 Hide and Steel Banded and slots Level 5 Dragoon, his bonus to Light Melee will be EXACTLY the same as slotting L5 Swashbuckler with +2 Footpads.
Edit: Well ok, 1 point less. Boo-hoo.
He can give up the Light Armor and his Rogue Armor Feat for a Fighter Armor Feat and Heavy Melee and be just as good at doing all of his rogue things while also having that much more HP and Physical Resistance. Other than Role Play purposes, there is absolutely no reason to use Swashbuckler and Light Armor right now.
Oh yeah, and Dragoon will also increase his versatility since it gives the same attack bonus to Heavy Melee AND it gives an Improved Critical Hit bonus that the Swashbuckler doesn't have.
Thanks for the explanation.
Now that I understand it, that might be the single most depressing post in this thread.
Note that clerics and wizards are also better off wearing Hide and Steel and slotting Dragoon.
(btw the only reason so many people wear Pot with unbreakable slotted is its easy to make)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And goblins drop it.
I was referring more to the +1 and +2 versions that are all over the server.
All the generic +0 heavy armors works equally well with Crusader/Unbreakable/Crusader as they only have the heavy keyword. Same with light and medium. There is basically no difference between a +0 "Quiet" rogue armor and any other +0 light for example.
It matters at +1 and above and each armor has a matching optimal feat.
As far as making heavy goes:
+2 Pot Plate just needs 9 x +2 steel plates and a couple of +1 all up about 30 iron and 30 coal. high plus Pot plate is a cinch to make. I stopped making it because no-one was buying it, people were giving it away.
On the other hand +2 hide and steel (for Dragoon) needs less of the +2 Plate but needs +2 hide sheets in the mix so its trickier.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Most MMO's have taken rogues and made them masters of mobility and fast attacks, whereas its roots in tabletop were based on greater and sometimes unique skill use. I have assumed so far that the intent of the design for PFO is that rogue combat effectiveness will balance out to fighters taking into account higher attack speed, lower damage factor, lower stamina cost, as well as the more nebulous effects of applying and benefiting from conditions, and greater mobility. At the moment, I don't think that it does.
If it doesn't, then it needs tweaking, or alternative balancing factors need to be added, like enriching the role through feats that expand skill training that actually provide rogue-like gameplay use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it doesn't, then it needs tweaking, or alternative balancing factors need to be added, like enriching the role through feats that expand skill training that actually provide rogue-like gameplay use.
UMD is a significant one that is missing. Many TT characters cross-class rogue just to get UMD.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I tried playing with DoTs, but the problem with the combat UI is that you have very little way of seeing if a) they are proccing (I assume there is a little graphic on the bar, I can't tell what it is for a bleed, or for frightened) and b) you can't tell what damage they are doing. Compound *should* put bleed 30 when the opponent is flatfooted. I have no way of knowing if it is actually doing that. I still use it every attack as it has the highest damage multiplier, I just don't know if the DoTs ever have any effect.
I haven't tried Feint. I will have a look at my set-up and see if that fits in better than Thrust.
I swapped my +2 footpad's leathers for +2 quiet iron shirt (thanks Guildenstern!) last night. It fits my scout build better. It was late so I didn't get to try it out much (I did take down the yellow ogre that killed me on the way to pick up the armour though). But at least now I don't look like some shiny joke shop dog turd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bug or not bug: If I am up against 4 mobs, an archer, a recruit archer and a couple of melee types I would sneak and take out the archer with 2-3 bow shots, then deal with the melee before going back to my bow for the recruit archer. Invariably none of my distant shots hit the recruit archer, so I get into regular shortbow range, and still nothing hits, and I have to run up to it and hit it with a pointy stick.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fairly common occurence in my experience, I have stutied the animation and stamina bars, and I think it really comes down to the interrupt spamming from NPC archers. Sometimes I have managed to break into the cycle with a longbow, but usually I just have to do some handywork to end it...
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Goblin Squad Member
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BASICALLY - the real difference between a Rogue and a Fighter or cleric using rogue weapons and feats is going to be the Rogue Kit and the maneuvers that go with it. A true rogue will have an advanced rogue kit of some sort and level 2 or 3 maneuvers.
I think Tier 1 'roles' have relatively simple requirements in general. I like this. In the first few weeks of a new character I can switch gears and not feel too much at a loss.
Around level 7 or 8 for all roles advancement decelerates sharply. 'Tier 2' (role, not gear) is very difficult to achieve with even one attribute gate. I can get from 0 to 6 or 7 with a few days of training. To reach just one attribute point it takes more than a month of investing in one or more role features, attacks, armor, reactives, etc.
After a few months I might have a very dedicated fighter or cleric or wizard or rogue for 'Tier 2' opponents (PvE and PvP), but I can easily sub for any role in 'Tier 1', as will anyone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Bug or not bug: If I am up against 4 mobs, an archer, a recruit archer and a couple of melee types I would sneak and take out the archer with 2-3 bow shots, then deal with the melee before going back to my bow for the recruit archer. Invariably none of my distant shots hit the recruit archer, so I get into regular shortbow range, and still nothing hits, and I have to run up to it and hit it with a pointy stick.
The archers have "interrupt on opportunity" effects, and interrupts are poorly indicated to the player.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've finally learned to recognize the Interrupted Flinch on my character, and once enemy archers have been firing for a few rounds, it starts happening a lot.
With enemies not knowing how to interpret some effects, and therefore ignoring them, are our interrupts processing, or being ignored? I've experimented with a melee interrupt, and it doesn't seem very effective. I've tried spamming it while an enemy is attacking a group member who does more straight damage than I can. The intent is to prevent my party member from getting killed while they deal out the big damage, rather than trying to add my direct damage to the party member's. It's very hard to tell whether it's working. Either NPCs don't flinch like PCs, or it's having no effect.