Happy Feet, Wombo Combo: A guide to getting asses whooped with the Brawler


Advice

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Secret Wizard wrote:

There's a revision in the works, I'll mention clasp and ghost touch!

Horn is good if you don't use dragon style, that's true.

AndIMustMask wrote:
your section of fighter feats lists +1 attack and +4 damage, when it should be +2/+4, due to greater weapon focus
everyone can get weapon focus

He probably views it as 'should everyone get weapon focus'?

Because most people on this board view it just as an annoying prerequisite for better stuff, and feel that there are better things to do with their feats. Not entirely sure I agree, but I can understand how vanilla it is (side note- why is vanilla treated as the 'non flavor'? Because it is white?). So the feat chain seems like an excuse to grab the feat.

Also- horn is best when you dip MoMS, and grab pummeling style and dragon style. Dragon ferocity adds a bonus equal to 1/2 your str score, so it should stack with horn's x2 str (plus, dragon style eases charging). Because people who get in your way do not deserve faces. But don't quote me on any of that (well...other than the quote found in general replies..), since bonus stacking is always a bit iffy.


no i meant that your class abilities section (i think it was) points out that brawler counts as fighter for weapon focus/spec, totalling to +1 attack and +4 damage if you take the feats.

that should be +2 attack and +4 damage, since getting greater spec (for that +4 total damage) REQUIRES greater weapon focus.

EDIT: i just realized what you meant (i think). everyone else can take focus, but brawler can take the others for a +1/+4 advantage over them. carry on.


Quote:
Also- horn is best when you dip MoMS, and grab pummeling style and dragon style. Dragon ferocity adds a bonus equal to 1/2 your str score, so it should stack with horn's x2 str (plus, dragon style eases charging). Because people who get in your way do not deserve faces. But don't quote me on any of that (well...other than the quote found in general replies..), since bonus stacking is always a bit iffy.

el no stacko


in the case of no stacking, i'd say the ease of charging alone makes it worth it (or lets you not need to invest in a horn).


Secret Wizard wrote:
Quote:
Also- horn is best when you dip MoMS, and grab pummeling style and dragon style. Dragon ferocity adds a bonus equal to 1/2 your str score, so it should stack with horn's x2 str (plus, dragon style eases charging). Because people who get in your way do not deserve faces. But don't quote me on any of that (well...other than the quote found in general replies..), since bonus stacking is always a bit iffy.
el no stacko
prototype00 wrote:

Hmm, well, I put the question to Mark Seifter and he had this to say:

Quote:
It looks to me like nothing changed. Just as before, it still definitely doesn't forth with Dragon Style's increase to 1.5, and it may or may not work with Ferocity depending on order of operations. So it'll depend on the GM's ruling of order of operations.

So if it worked to give you 2.5x Str to all attacks in the past, it will work to give you 2.5x Str even now.

prototype00

El si stacko.

prototype00


AndIMustMask wrote:
in the case of no stacking, i'd say the ease of charging alone makes it worth it (or lets you not need to invest in a horn).

I am...fairly sure that the change to the first hit doesn't carry over the whole pummel (if that is what you meant). From what I've seen, you work out your full attack like normal, but only apply DR once (As well as miss chances-there is usually a trade off).

Horn still looks good, since it just specifies a change to charging attacks. It works just as well for a charging barbarian.


I was more referring to pummeling charge requiring a charge, and dragon style facilitating that by letting you ignore terrain--any damage bonus is just gravy.


The build for Exemplar has a error.
It can't use Intimidating Performance.
Intimidating Performance says:
"Your performance must be one with an audible component."

Exemplar's perform power says:
"Instead of the Perform skill, she activates this ability with impressive flourishes and displays of martial talent (this uses visual components)."


While the bayonet is listed as a two-handed weapon, by itself it's either a spike or a knife that's designed to attach to the end of a crossbow or firearm. Common sense would argue that you'd need either a crossbow or musket to use it with two hands.


Thanks everyone for the feedback, I'll push for a new version next week.

Shadow Lodge

i know that normally full casters make terrible dips but, 4lvs of druid with shaping focus adds wildshape and being able to turn into a huge animal, with those powerful bonuses and turning into a creature with the manuvers it looks like a great idea, especially since you can use unarmed strikes while in animal form :3


AZGrowler wrote:
While the bayonet is listed as a two-handed weapon, by itself it's either a spike or a knife that's designed to attach to the end of a crossbow or firearm. Common sense would argue that you'd need either a crossbow or musket to use it with two hands.

The cheapest crossbow is 35 gold..which brings to total cost to 40. Still less than a greatsword.

Stylistically, I would ask if you could use that 4d10 worth of scrap that the gunslinger starts out with (with the same restrictions- you are not a level 1 gunslinger, so you can't get it to work-assume it is broken from the get go). No one said this gun had to be particularly good. It is just a platform to put your bayonet on.

Dark Archive

Interesting guide.

The multiclass section is missing an intriguing option - Arcane Trickster. Strange, I know, but it works.

Snakebite Striker gets Sneak Attack at level 1, it's a prerequisite. You can take Weapon Finesse (fists) so you can be a Dex/Int build (even Elves can do this, provided you shore up Con). Then you take your Wiz or Sorc levels and Sleepless Detective or whatever and then Arcane Trickster.

It's good for the AT because it makes you massively tougher than Rogue entry (full BaB, 10 hp at level 1, good Fort save) and you still have the Brawler's many skills and 4 skill points with probably an Int bonus.

Light armour is fine, you won't end up using armour anyway. Close weapons are fine, fist or dagger will be all you need until you are Sneak Attacking with spells.

For RP reasons, the Snakebite Striker is also a bit more magical Monk, chop-socky if you want to play it that way.

----

You also need a mention of Sacred Fist Warpriest who can do some eyebrow-raising things with a good unarmed strike.


Secret Wizard wrote:

Hey, here's the guide I wrote on the Brawler.

It is very much a work-in-progress.

I am open to commentary, feature requests, build submissions and the like, to make the best compendium for the Brawler we can.

I hope you enjoy it.

Kisses.

Clueless elves Dwarves make the best brawlers because they can punch through walls of force and prismatic spheres which is epic and mythic.

Never mind +4 saves with steel soul is extra candy as are the dwarf only feats you can get a whim like : cleave through, dented helm, gobilin clever, orc hewer, giant slayer

Shatterspell (Combat)
Your mighty blows shatter your enemy's magic.
Prerequisites: Disruptive, Spellbreaker, dwarf, 10th-level fighter.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect as if you had the spell sunder rage power (Ultimate Combat 28). You may use this feat once per day, plus one additional time per day for every 5 points by which your base attack bonus exceeds +10.

They should be ranked as a MUCH better race.


insaneogeddon wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Hey, here's the guide I wrote on the Brawler.

It is very much a work-in-progress.

I am open to commentary, feature requests, build submissions and the like, to make the best compendium for the Brawler we can.

I hope you enjoy it.

Kisses.

Clueless elves Dwarves make the best brawlers because they can punch through walls of force and prismatic spheres which is epic and mythic.

Never mind +4 saves with steel soul is extra candy as are the dwarf only feats you can get a whim like : cleave through, dented helm, gobilin clever, orc hewer, giant slayer

Shatterspell (Combat)
Your mighty blows shatter your enemy's magic.
Prerequisites: Disruptive, Spellbreaker, dwarf, 10th-level fighter.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect as if you had the spell sunder rage power (Ultimate Combat 28). You may use this feat once per day, plus one additional time per day for every 5 points by which your base attack bonus exceeds +10.

They should be ranked as a MUCH better race.

Eh, I won't mind steel soul. Since it is very easy to get past. It doesn't cover supernatural abilities. A decent witch can wreck you. That is why I prefer dual minded half elves, since they give an actual +2 to will saves.

I won't say shatterspell isn't good, but it is 1/day, and 3/day as a capstone. It begs the question 'why not barbarian?'

I can't speak too much on the various cleave feats though.


How many witch NPCs are in modules? How common are witches?
Spells and spell like are the lions share of pain - mileage will always be great.

Barbarians aren't brawlers and sometimes you want to play a brawler. Also barbarians to do it more than once an encounter need to rely on cheats like rage cycling which is either banned or cheese. Some (fools) like playing honorably or more sensibly/as designers intended.


insaneogeddon wrote:

How many witch NPCs are in modules? How common are witches?

Spells and spell like are the lions share of pain - mileage will always be great.

Barbarians aren't brawlers and sometimes you want to play a brawler. Also barbarians to do it more than once an encounter need to rely on cheats like rage cycling which is either banned or cheese. Some (fools) like playing honorably or more sensibly/as designers intended.

There's honor in following the rules. What the designer intended and what the development team put out aren't always the same thing. The designer of mule belt said it was meant to allow rage cycling. You're free to play the game your way, but rage cycling and the like really aren't cheese. And doing allowed methods to reach an ends isn't bad.


I do have a bias towards the development team and the bigger game picture.

Specific designers not to much as either by oversight, rebellion, lack of game knowledge, lack of liaising or cooperation they lead to dead games or new editions sooner or later.

Played most every edition and a myriad of other systems and its always the same. Someone breaks the rules for power,fame, popularity and others follow (and only exceptional players will take downgrades in power once its been presented) and next thing it goes to pot and you need to waste money and time on some new edition and play for 2 years with boring base books before more interesting stuff appears but that doesn't last all that long till creatives without juice confuse power creep with interesting and break it.


insaneogeddon wrote:

How many witch NPCs are in modules? How common are witches?

Spells and spell like are the lions share of pain - mileage will always be great.

Barbarians aren't brawlers and sometimes you want to play a brawler. Also barbarians to do it more than once an encounter need to rely on cheats like rage cycling which is either banned or cheese. Some (fools) like playing honorably or more sensibly/as designers intended.

Witches are just an example of the kinds of things you can expect.

Another example would be vampires, or anything with the dominate ability. That might work like dominate person, but it is SU.

These are examples of the things you may find trouble with. And unfortunately, it seems like will based SU abilities are some of the harshest Slumber can shut you down, and dominate can turn you against your allies. And some creatures have weird and abilities that are even worse (I know it is not a common enemy by any stretch, but I still shudder at the thought of a demilich RIPPING YOUR SOUL OUT and potentially destroying it).

This is the stuff that BBEG's and their immediate entourage are made of. So yes, spells are often the most common threat, but it might not be the one that carries the most threat of TPK.

Another fun note- half elves also get an additional +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects (which are of course carry some of the staples of the 'wreck everything' kind of spells, like the dominates and charms)


NECROOO!!!

No, seriously, though, I love this guide if only because Mako Mankoshoku is the image for the Exemplar, which is my favorite Archetype.

WHY is it my favorite Archetype?

Cavalier/Strategist 1-3 / Exemplar 3-5 / Battle Herald X

Seriously, the best things about this Archetype for me are that:

1) it Stacks with Cavalier for the Tactician ability if you take it up to level 5

2) It gains Inspire Courage at level 3, meaning you can either pop into Battle Herald at level 6 - the same level you normally could with Cavalier/Bard - or you can hold out until Level 7, so that all your class levels stack together to determine how many times a day he can use Tactician.

Exemplar is just a fan-freakin' tastic way to make a commander-type character.


I don't know if it's already been mentioned but just a note: Brawlers get all Simple weapons along with Close. They don't increase damage but they can use a longspear for reach. Just sayin.

Grand Lodge

I can't scroll passed the first page.


claudekennilol wrote:
I can't scroll passed the first page.

All the sections listed on that page are hyperlinks to other documents.


Hi there! Whats your opinion on Skinwalkers as a race for brawlers? sure you don't get anything from natural attacks but 2 versions seems to be really good.

The unmodified Skinwalker gets a +2 wis -2 int with a flouting +2 to a physical stat and (most likely) a +1 nat armor.

The witchwolf Skinwalker gets a +2 con -2 int with a +2 wis and (most likely) a +2 racial to saves.

Both address somewhat the shortcomings of the brawler class (ac and will save) have a penalty in a stat brawlers dont care to much about and get a spell like ability (magic fang for the witchwolf) so they can grab arcane strike for what that matters.

PS: The skill bonus ain't have bad either for the witchwolf
PS2: unfortunately they don't get much support from other supplements.
PS3: for a naval campaign Seascarred could also work +2 Wis, –2 Int (+2 Con while shapechanged)


@chbgraphicfarts: I had to rack my brain to come up with an inspiring close weapon user. It was between Mako and the West Side Story's Jets. Also: with VMC Cavalier from Unchained, you can qualify earlier.

@Mark Hoof'er: I must admit I mostly neglected the utility of long spears. If they had another useful quality they would be nice to have, but in most cases, you can just MF for Lunge.

@ArchangelAzfartsel: I think your assessment is most likely right! I modeled the race section so valuing races is easy.
As a race with bonuses to good stats and boosts to saves and armour, they should be good to very good.
Weretiger Snake bite Strikers with Shattering Display, Deadly Stroke and Violent Display would be excellent too.


ArchangelAzrael wrote:

Hi there! Whats your opinion on Skinwalkers as a race for brawlers? sure you don't get anything from natural attacks but 2 versions seems to be really good.

The unmodified Skinwalker gets a +2 wis -2 int with a flouting +2 to a physical stat and (most likely) a +1 nat armor.

The witchwolf Skinwalker gets a +2 con -2 int with a +2 wis and (most likely) a +2 racial to saves.

Both address somewhat the shortcomings of the brawler class (ac and will save) have a penalty in a stat brawlers dont care to much about and get a spell like ability (magic fang for the witchwolf) so they can grab arcane strike for what that matters.

PS: The skill bonus ain't have bad either for the witchwolf
PS2: unfortunately they don't get much support from other supplements.
PS3: for a naval campaign Seascarred could also work +2 Wis, –2 Int (+2 Con while shapechanged)

i thought a recent faq put a gravestone on picking up arcane strike with spell-like abilities.

you need an actual caster level now


It did.

No caster dip is worth it... Unless a sorry like ability's granted caster levels grant arcane strike scaling.

If you want to arcane strike your fists, probably you are better off as a BKR Bloodrager.


One of the builds I like, inspired by the Vanguard Class from Nosgoth, is Brawler Fighter 3 / Exemplar Brawler 9

The build relies on:

I) Wushu Darts at both range and at melee
II) Martial Flexibility to grab both Teamwork and Shield Bash abilities
III) Brawler Fighter to gain a better and quicker Weapon Training
IV) Fighter to gain proficiency with Shields and Heavier Armour since Exemplar gives up the AC bonus and nothing else matters for Brawlers in that regard.
V) Brawlers Flurry and Close Weapon Mastery to throw out and dish out massive amounts of damage both at range and in close.
VI) Inspire Courage is just great.

All in all the build grabs a Belt of Mighty Hurling and throws dozens of Unmagical Wushu darts or rams them into close-up enemies. Finally the Shield and Flexibility let's you happily control the battlefield.


Hey, long time lurker, first time poster here.

I had a lot of fun with a build for a play through of Second Darkness and wanted to mention a few things.

You mentioned the dip into Alchemist for Mutagen, and that Fighter was a strong dip for proficiencies, but didn't touch on the mutagenic fighter out of Advanced Class Guide. I dipped that with Urban Barbarian, and created an enduring mutagen for Dex. These made floating my dexterity around to qualify for feats in the Two-Weapon tree useful.

Since it's not baseline available to Brawlers, it wasn't mentioned in the guide for weapons, but it's mentioning the sansetsukon since it can be two-handed while flurrying. Even if you're not dipping, it's worth the feat investment to get the 1.5x bonus on you main stat mod and power attack. It should outpace the bonuses to unarmed strike in a vacuum, assuming one has a decent strength.

I also wanted to add a quick blurb to action-types. As a brawler, fighting against stuff that came up in the adventure path, I never really had many problems hitting my opponents. What I couldn't hit, I grappled. What I couldn't hit or grapple (happened exactly once when the GM got happy giving magic items to the bosses of one of the books), I sundered. Since landing attacks wasn't ever a problem, fighting defensively is a powerful ability. Even without flexing into crane style, it can allow you to soak some serious blows.

Lastly, for equipment, I wanted to suggest adding quick-runner shirt as an early game item. Since I wasn't going into unarmed, I used mine the entire length of the adventure path. Once per day, in a clutch situation, it solves the horrible move problem (I was in full-plate from the mutagenic fighter dip, so mine was even worse). More often than not, I used the shirt to get around obstacles that would impede my pummeling charge.

Anyway, sorry for ranting. I just found your guides and had to read up on one of my favorites. I hope I was able to contribute. ^_^


Thanks, mate, this guide is due some love.


HauntedRulz wrote:

Since it's not baseline available to Brawlers, it wasn't mentioned in the guide for weapons, but it's mentioning the sansetsukon since it can be two-handed while flurrying. Even if you're not dipping, it's worth the feat investment to get the 1.5x bonus on you main stat mod and power attack. It should outpace the bonuses to unarmed strike in a vacuum, assuming one has a decent strength.
^

You only get 1x str even when using a Two hander when you flurry:

From brawlers flurry ability:
Quote:
A brawler applies her full Strength modifier to her damage rolls for all attacks made with brawler's flurry, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand weapon or a weapon wielded in both hands.


Guide being updated! Expect to see weird stuff.


Guide finally updated! Back to normal.


Love this guide. Haven't had a chance to play a Brawler yet, but first chance I get, bang-zoom, to the moon, Alice! :-)

You mentioned the Mutagenic Mauler as being able to use medium armor b/c they don't have any class features that are light-armor-only. However, brawling armor enchantment is light only. Is medium armor worth foregoing its +2? Me, I make a habit of glomming on to every attack bonus I can get.

Thanks for the work put into this.

Later on,
Ghorrin Redblade


Redblade8 wrote:

Love this guide. Haven't had a chance to play a Brawler yet, but first chance I get, bang-zoom, to the moon, Alice! :-)

You mentioned the Mutagenic Mauler as being able to use medium armor b/c they don't have any class features that are light-armor-only. However, brawling armor enchantment is light only. Is medium armor worth foregoing its +2? Me, I make a habit of glomming on to every attack bonus I can get.

It's not. But if you want to use a weapon with a better critical range, like a Cestus, it's pretty good.


One thing I would note is that by virtue of having the monk style unarmed attack (can be used with hands full) brawlers with reach weapons and trip are horrific to try to escape against.

As pointed out earlier they start with simple weapon proficiency so there is no reason for an unarmed strike focused brawler not to carry a spear for getting attacks in as people retreat or advance. Unlike most reach weapon carriers a brawler actually wants you inside the reach where they can let their headbutts do the talking.

Remember that withdraw only blocks out the first square, and by threatening both adjacent and reach a brawler will always get an attack of opportunity against an opponent that can't out tumble their pretty high CMD or teleport.

If they get enlarged it gets even more crazy.

Silver Crusade

Honestly this guide is a fun read, which is something I really enjoy while reading through something. I'm not huge on the different links to each section, but that's just a personal issue. The pictures are fun (if a bit scattered in topic), and it took me longer than it should have to get the Smash reference for the title.

I'm enjoying the commentary on combining archetypes, I wish I wasn't so lazy as to avoid doing this in my own guides, it's a good touch. I'm not a huge fan of the pink rating though, it just seems somewhat arbitrary.

Not in total agreement over orange for finesse myself, although I love finesse fighters, so that's just me. I think it's at least green though, it's about as good as your normal options for unarmed, although for weapon combat I'll agree that it's probably orange. My general take for it is picking up an agile AOMF, Brawler enchant for armor (both are shockingly cheap), and then slowly building up the bonuses on the AOMF (I prefer straight damage bonuses for this myself.)

Little shocked Weapon Master wasn't listed in the fighter dips if you're suggesting a Fighter 5 dip, picking up Weapon Training at 3 is a nice way to get those dueling gloves working for you earlier.

Overall I liked it though, solid guide!


<3

I tried making into a single file, but the pictures made the whole thing extremely laggy.

Silver Crusade

Secret Wizard wrote:

<3

I tried making into a single file, but the pictures made the whole thing extremely laggy.

Understandable, formatting is the great gaping beast that hunts for us all at the end of the world of guide writing. But yeah, Weapon Master Fighter is a way better dip to pick up Weapon Training and start playing with your fighter mittens. I might have to look at Brawler again and see if I can find some good multiclass options to stuff into my guides.


Secret Wizard wrote:


@Mark Hoof'er: I must admit I mostly neglected the utility of long spears. If they had another useful quality they would be nice to have, but in most cases, you can just MF for Lunge.

The main thing is you walk around holding the longspear. When combat starts, maybe you get an AoO. When enemies have moved up to you, start kicking and full attacking while still holding the spear. If you are using something like a cestus, you can drop the spear as a free and go to town.

Having a longspear is basically free attacks because it doesn't limit your brawling-ness


N. Jolly wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

<3

I tried making into a single file, but the pictures made the whole thing extremely laggy.

Understandable, formatting is the great gaping beast that hunts for us all at the end of the world of guide writing. But yeah, Weapon Master Fighter is a way better dip to pick up Weapon Training and start playing with your fighter mittens. I might have to look at Brawler again and see if I can find some good multiclass options to stuff into my guides.

I'll put it down. Seems better for the Weapon-based builds than the unarmed ones.


You say finesse builds want to avoid using shields, but mw light shields and bucklers have no acp so no penalty to using them. Maybe you should clarify that you mean avoid using non mithral heavy shields?


Under martial training you have
" but most builds don’t even both with those. "
Should be bother


CWheezy wrote:
You say finesse builds want to avoid using shields, but mw light shields and bucklers have no acp so no penalty to using them. Maybe you should clarify that you mean avoid using non mithral heavy shields?

There's a provision for that somewhere in there that says that the necessity for mithral shields only increases the gold cost needed for the build to start to gain parity.

One of the cases in which Finesse is viable is higher starting levels, I think I wrote it down somewhere there. I'll make it clearer.


Quote:
Finesse builds, which have to avoid shields like the plague,

This is like, blatantly false.


Hey, I just noticed your "Scary" sample build (Snakebite Striker) has Hurtful, but not its Power Attack prerequisite.


Good catch


Dang, I was hoping I was the one that missed something. :-)


I feel like Oreads are the ideal race: +2 str/wis -2 Cha, alt racial for +1 AC, other cool nifty features. And you're half elemental. the only slight problem is the slow movement speed, which you can buy boots to get around (I've recently fell in love with boots of skate from DSP psionics).

Dark Archive

Awesome guide - thanks for all the hard work!

Looking over your Shield Champion build and I have some feedback:

  • Maneuver Training listed at 3rd level, but the Shield Champion gives up this ability.
  • Combat Expertise is listed as taken at both 3rd and 5th.
  • Under "It is sweet because" you mention taking Point-Blank Shot is there so you can get Point Blank Master when you need it, but Point Blank Master has a prerequisite of Weapon Specialization. I make this mistake all the time, so I'm guessing you meant Precise Shot?

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