Natural Attacks vs Weapons at higher level

[Quatar]

I'm currently building a Summoner for a Wrath of the Rightious game, and I'm pondering if I should give my Eidolon (biped, sorta humanoid) a big twohanded weapon or focus on natural attacks instead.

I know at low level it's pretty amazing to have 3 or 4 attacks at full BAB when everyone else has 1 or maybe 2 attacks.

But how do natural attacks fare at higher levels? I rarely play there so I don't have too much experience with it.

- I suppose NA Eidolon is more dependent on getting full attacks as often as possible, while the Weapon Eidolon can do lots of damage with a single attack. How often (aproximately) would you say you get a full attack, over not (assume I won't get pounce).
- Does DR really mess that badly with you?
- Does the higher attack bonus (6 attacks at full BAB at 14 vs. 3 weapon attacks + a few natural weapons at -5 [possibly more as I won't get a AoMF and magic weapons]) make up for the lower damage per hit?
- Is the difference (one way or the other) actually really noticable in game, or is it mostly a theoretical debate, because both can easily kill level-appropriate enemies? If the enemy has 100 HPs and I do either 150 or 200 per round, it really doesn't matter.

[Dafydd]

First, I do not get to play often at high level. So this is like 80% theory/number crunching.

1: If you are not grabbing pounce, that is ok. BUT you need to do things like taking the reach evolution for the attacks. Being able to threaten the 10ft around you is powerful, and means you can take 5ft steps more often to move into combat range. Additionally, most manufactured weapons that give you this kinda reach open a hole in the center. Meaning you need the distance to hit.

2: Current price of AoMF makes your amulet on par with a pair of weapons in terms of price. This can really help vs DR. Bite does all 3 types of damage, and you have access to piercing and slashing attacks primary, bludgeoning is a little harder to come by, but still available. Additionally, you can take the magic attack evolution to have the attacks bypass magic DR. There is also alignment smite to bypass DR/evil.

3: What lower damage?

Bite: 1d6 on its own, 1d8 after you take Improved Damage, 2d6 when you take Improved Natural Attack. In other words, same as Greatsword.

Claw: 1d4 on its own, 1d6 after you take Improved Damage, 1d8 when you take Improved Natural Attack. In other words, same as Longsword.

Sting: 1d4 on its own, 1d6 after you take Improved Damage, 1d8 when you take Improved Natural Attack. In other words, same as Longsword.

Slam: 1d6 on its own, 1d8 after you take Improved Damage, 2d6 when you take Improved Natural Attack. In other words, same as Greatsword.

Those are all at medium. It is important to remember, Evo Surge to turn the eidolon large does not affect manufactured weapons.

4: Can not really say here. As I said at the beginning of the post. I have not been able to play at high level in a while.

[Madwand]

Do both. The investment is minimal: an extra pair of hands to wield (preferably) a reach weapon, and have all your natural attacks available too. Switch between these attacks as desired. I did this with a biped eidolon, and it turned out very, very well. Once I got multiattack, I started using both at the same time: the natural attacks only have a -2 penalty. The Push evolution can be useful to push enemies that get close into range of your weapon, and forces them to take an AOO again if they want to close with you.

[kestral287]

It's going to depend on your class and the number of natural weapons you have.

For example: A Fighter could have Bite/Claw/Claw at level 15... or he could have weapon attack x4. The weapon gives more attacks, at the cost of iteratives being at lower BAB... but the Fighter doesn't necessarily worry about that, and he can miss 25% of the time and still match the natural attack routine. Further, the Fighter can two-hand, meaning each attack hits harder than the natural attacker.

However, the go-to heavy natural attack build, Rageborn Alchemist, can have six attacks from level 2 on to 20. Four hit at full BAB, two at -5. At level 15, the Alchemist only gets three weapon attacks, so getting six off the naturals is still preferable-- and unlike the Fighter, the Alchemist doesn't get stuff like Weapon Training to offset the low to-hit of iteratives.

The other consideration is expense. It's more expensive to enhance natural attacks (via Amulet of Mighty Fist) than it is to enhance a weapon. And, of course, having an Amulet of Mighty Fist means no other Amulet (like, say, Natural Armor).

Doing both, as Madwand suggests, is also a very good option, limited only by being expensive. If you can afford it it's typically your best option.

[Chess Pwn]

But an amulet of mighty fists is better if you have many attacks, as each get the benefit, so having 6 attacks is getting 6 bonuses for the price of like 2 I think.

[kestral287]

Chess Pwn wrote:

But an amulet of mighty fists is better if you have many attacks, as each get the benefit, so having 6 attacks is getting 6 bonuses for the price of like 2 I think.

This is true, but the Fighter is getting 4 attacks off his one boosted weapon.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I don't know about tricking out a Summoner's Eidolon, but when it comes to melee characters, I am a big fan of Natural Weapons, speaking as an unapologetic min/maxer.

[Kelazan]

An character level 20, an eidolon only has 15 BAB, so even if they are full bAB creatures, eidolon can't match the itteratives attacks of a fighter or barbarian with more hit dice. According to me, having an eidolon using its natural attacks is more effective. You can even improve the bite evolution by expanding a second evolution point in it, to hit as with a two-handed weapon, and so, even when full-attacking (like a dragon bite).

Bite (Ex):

Source: Advanced Player's Guide

An eidolon’s maw is full of razor-sharp teeth, giving it a bite attack. This attack is a primary attack. The bite deals 1d6 points of damage (1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.

[spazztick]

There's also a spell called "Strong Jaw." which is a min/level buff, that adds 2 size categories to ones natural attacks. It's only cartable by ranger/druid, but if you end up with one in the party and can negotiate a buff trade... that'd really help your damage. (not sure if all DMs will allow the spell,

[Wu Nakitu]

To be honest, as a player two sessions from the end of the AP, I'd advise going with the weapon longterm.

DR is going to absolutely destroy a natural attacker in a mythic game, especially with how few mythic options there are for Eidolons - the resources you spend on overcoming it with a natural weapon would probably be better spent on shoring up defences.

It'd probably be okay to take a couple of claws and a bite early on before you have the money for magic weapons, and then swap out the evolutions.

Edit: Re; full attacks: There are a couple of mythic paths that give you the option of taking Beast's Fury, which lets you spend a mythic point as a swift to let your Eidolon move+attack using it's immediate action, and ignore DR on that attack. This attack does have to be a natural attack, however.

[Onyxlion]

I'd suggest going the natural attack route but also pick up magic attcks evolution because it also gives you alignment to natural attacks later which is going to be your biggest Dr worry for the most part. Also try to stack primaries over secondaries, accuracy is going to benefit you more in the long run.

My suggestion would be to go hydra style with strong bites up to your max number of attacks, this also let's you gain the most from power attack.

[lemeres]

Kelazan wrote:

An character level 20, an eidolon only has 15 BAB, so even if they are full bAB creatures, eidolon can't match the itteratives attacks of a fighter or barbarian with more hit dice. According to me, having an eidolon using its natural attacks is more effective. You can even improve the bite evolution by expanding a second evolution point in it, to hit as with a two-handed weapon, and so, even when full-attacking (like a dragon bite).

** spoiler omitted **

But doesn't the eidolon get both a +8 scaling bonus to str/dex, as well as the option to grab the large evo for another +8? (also they can go huge for +16, but that can be hard to actually use since it hardly fits anywhere)

15+4 mod +4 mod=+23.

That is similar to a barbarian in terms of raw numbers. And a lot of that comes from strength bonus, so that means 1.5x with a 2 handed weapon. So the only immediate problem I can see is that they lack their last iterative. And being a large, humanoid like creature means a lot of reach, which can help make up for that.

Not entirely saying it would necessarily beat out a natural attack build (as you noted, you can take care of the 'what to do when you can't full attack?' problem with evos). I am just saying that it can compare to a martial.

Of course, Wu Nakitu noted that Mythic games are not exactly eidolon/natural attack friendly. So it might be a safer option option to just grab a nice beatstick.