Best Shapeshifter class?


Advice


Or classES. Making a character for a crazy game (Gestalt 20th level Mythic 10). Every character has a theme (for a portfolio for when/if they become Gods, fittingly) Theme in my case is Transmutation/Shapeshifting, Mutation, and all that jazz.

What's the best class or combination of classes for it? All 3rd party is open. Tried a Metamorph/Aegis build but it wasn't as good as it looked at first glance.

Remember this is level 20, so any classes that have an OMGWTFBBQ good Capstone for a shapeshifter are worthwhile as well.

I would assume that no matter what I choose it would involve use of Shapechange with Enduring blessing and Shapeshifting Mastery from Mythic. Considering keeping Aegis (Aberrant) for neat stuff like DR 10/- and Blindsight, but open to suggestions on that front as well.

Essentially I want a character that can seamlessly meld from form to form, while still retaining casting. I heard there was an Arcanist archetype in Advanced Class Guide Origins that was good for this, but I don' have the book and it's not on the SRD yet, so I'm unsure what it is or how good it is. Brown Fur Transmuter looks pretty good so far, both for having more powerful shifts and for mutating other people against their will.

Morality isn't an issue, so if it's an evil option only sling it at me, brother.

And if there's any good Feats or magic items I've overlooked, they'd be awesome as well.


Hmm... Feral Hunter Archetype from the Advanced Class Guide is probably a good starting point. You have Full BAB, divine casting up to 6th level druid/ranger progression and good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Add in an Empyreal Sorcerer, you get full arcane casting as well with Wisdom as the casting stat. Wild Spell might allow you to get around the sorcerer's arcane spell chance failure, as when wild-shaped you technically have no armour. That gives you capstone bloodline immunities and good Will saves as well (Acid, Cold, Petrification immunities.

You've also got the 6+int skills of the Hunter, decent blend of class skills, etc.

And of course, at level 20, a druid's shape-shift, to which a feral hunter's is equivalent, lasts as long as you like. Not to mention that if you miss the elemental/magical beast/dragon forms, you have the Sorcerer's Shapechange Spell.

Now get out there and shapeshift your way to godhood, you lucky bastard. (I'm probably never gonna get a level 20 character.)

If you need race advice, I delegate that to the rest of the messageboards.


The new Arcanist archetype isn't shapeshifting-based, it's a life-and-death thing. Arcanist Brown Fur Transmuter would indeed be my first pierce. What Origins gave them was a new exploit that's basically "Spend a point, cast while shifted for a turn" alongside one that lets them swap forms in the middle of a spell. The latter is inferior to the Shifting Mastery path ability though.

What are you looking at for stats? Are you concerned at all about a MAD suggestion, or are they going to be good enough to make oddball concepts fly?

Finding the second class is proving trickier, which is why I ask. Shapeshifting Mastery means you don't have to be concerned about getting a high BAB, which is nice and opens up some options. Off-hand:

  • Alchemist, probably with Vivisectionist/Beastmorph, can give you a bit of a different take on shapeshifting alongside the standard stuff.
  • Magus doesn't have a lot to do with shapeshifting beyond the fact that they get the spells, but they can let you cast in melee.
  • Primal Companion Hunter could be interesting if you off your companion so the enhancements apply to you. Again, bit of a different take. Offing the companion will lead to a few wasted class abilities though.
  • Obvious Druid is obvious. Not much synergy with Arcanist though.

Silver Crusade

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Hmm... Feral Hunter Archetype from the Advanced Class Guide is probably a good starting point. You have Full BAB, divine casting up to 6th level druid/ranger progression and good Fortitude and Reflex saves. Add in an Empyreal Sorcerer, you get full arcane casting as well with Wisdom as the casting stat. Wild Spell might allow you to get around the sorcerer's arcane spell chance failure, as when wild-shaped you technically have no armour. That gives you capstone bloodline immunities and good Will saves as well (Acid, Cold, Petrification immunities.

You've also got the 6+int skills of the Hunter, decent blend of class skills, etc.

And of course, at level 20, a druid's shape-shift, to which a feral hunter's is equivalent, lasts as long as you like. Not to mention that if you miss the elemental/magical beast/dragon forms, you have the Sorcerer's Shapechange Spell.

Now get out there and shapeshift your way to godhood, you lucky bastard. (I'm probably never gonna get a level 20 character.)

If you need race advice, I delegate that to the rest of the messageboards.

Hunter is 3/4 BAB.

How would you mix it with sorcerer?


zanbato13 wrote:

Hunter is 3/4 BAB.

How would you mix it with sorcerer?

OP said it was Gestalt, that means you get the class features of both (or take the best) when for each level.

Also, son of a hezrou, you're right about the BAB. Wonder if giving up full spell casting is worth it to get full BAB. Probably not is my guess.

Gestalt Build Rules


kestral287 wrote:

The new Arcanist archetype isn't shapeshifting-based, it's a life-and-death thing. Arcanist Brown Fur Transmuter would indeed be my first pierce. What Origins gave them was a new exploit that's basically "Spend a point, cast while shifted for a turn" alongside one that lets them swap forms in the middle of a spell. The latter is inferior to the Shifting Mastery path ability though.

What are you looking at for stats? Are you concerned at all about a MAD suggestion, or are they going to be good enough to make oddball concepts fly?

Finding the second class is proving trickier, which is why I ask. Shapeshifting Mastery means you don't have to be concerned about getting a high BAB, which is nice and opens up some options. Off-hand:

  • Alchemist, probably with Vivisectionist/Beastmorph, can give you a bit of a different take on shapeshifting alongside the standard stuff.
  • Magus doesn't have a lot to do with shapeshifting beyond the fact that they get the spells, but they can let you cast in melee.
  • Primal Companion Hunter could be interesting if you off your companion so the enhancements apply to you. Again, bit of a different take. Offing the companion will lead to a few wasted class abilities though.
  • Obvious Druid is obvious. Not much synergy with Arcanist though.

MAD is fine, within reason. I have 25 PB, and 4 MILLION gold to play with, so every stat gets a +11 right off the bat between belts/headbands and Inherent bonuses for sure.


Well, if MAD isn't going to be too much of an issue, and Shapeshift Mastery from the Mythic Archmage means you don't have to worry about low BAB, you could quite easily swap out the Empyreal Sorcerer with either an INT based caster or a CHA caster of any variety.

An INT caster gives you more skill points to play with, while a CHA caster is going to be spontaneous, meaning less reliance on scouting.

My verdict if you don't like the idea of an Empyreal Sorcerer:

1. Another Sorcerer Bloodline that grants better capstone immunities and either Wish or Shapechange as bonus spells (Draconic maybe?).
2. Witch. Use the hexes to debuff foes once you're in melee, and make sure to prepare scrying a few times for scouting purposes so you can prepare the best spells for the situation.
3. Regular Old Wizard (Divination School Optional): Lose the hexes and healing spells, gain everything else that makes Arcane Casting worth a 1/2 BAB, complete with metamagic feats. With the Divination school you're also a bit more efficient in the scouting part. Grab a trait that makes stealth a class skill and fulfill Melee, Utility Casting, and Scouting all in one! You also have no weak saves, which is quite nice.

Silver Crusade

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:
zanbato13 wrote:

Hunter is 3/4 BAB.

How would you mix it with sorcerer?

OP said it was Gestalt, that means you get the class features of both (or take the best) when for each level.

Also, son of a hezrou, you're right about the BAB. Wonder if giving up full spell casting is worth it to get full BAB. Probably not is my guess.

Gestalt Build Rules

Son of a Maharaja!

I say Full BAB. Shapeshifting will mean using another creature's abilities, and in cases when you want to remove the enemy's spellcasting, a flying or fast form with pounce will do it. You become the adaptive melee-combatant.


A detail that may change someone's advice, the game is not party based (every character is acting individually), and we have armies. So the usual party based Scout/Face/Beatstick/Healer/Etc. roles don't necessarily need to be filled.


Rynjin wrote:
MAD is fine, within reason. I have 25 PB, and 4 MILLION gold to play with, so every stat gets a +11 right off the bat between belts/headbands and Inherent bonuses for sure.

4 Million gold, you say?

You're in the unique position of being able to easily afford the required materials for a Staff of Wish!
If you don't take Arcane Sorcerer as half of your gestalt, and build this staff, then you bring shame on us all! :O


... Oh. If I just read that right, Gestalt 20/Mythic 10 is your /starting/ point.

Well that makes a difference.

Full BAB is irrelevant, he can get BAB = Caster Level while shifted.

Okay. You definitely want Archmage. You may want to Dual Path into Champion too. Dual Path is awesome. Off the Archmage, these would be my major path abilities to consider:

  • Shapeshifting Mastery
  • Shifting Mastery
  • Many Forms
  • Mirror Dodge
  • Component Freedom
  • Channel Power
  • Enduring Armor

Normally Wild Arcana is cool, but Arcane Surge being a Swift is going to be better for you. You're going to know all of the spells you care about anyway.

Off Champion:

  • Fleet Warrior
  • Shatter Spells

Okay, I thought Champion would have more than that. Some other stuff is okay but not much jumps out as great. The only notable general piece is Mythic Spellcasting, which you want for obvious reasons. Getting an Artifact can be nice but three path abilities is a lot.

I'd also talk to the GM about how open they're feeling with Permanency. Screw mucking around with Extended Shapechange and whatnot. See if you can just make it a permanent thing.

I'm liking either Arcanist/Alchemist or Arcanist/Druid. The former more than the latter, the more I think on it. Primal Hunter is still cool, but it's more of a flavor thing than a power option I feel.


Well, if you're the Mythic 10 guy for your army, you want the utility of a Level 20 Wizard.

Create networks of permanent teleportation circles, demi-planes, etc. for your army to use.

If however you side with zanbato13 on going with full BAB, I'd recommend axing my recommendation for using a Feral Hunter, and use a regular druid instead. At that point you have Shapeshifting covered, full casting (including Awaken Animal, your army could be composed entirely of animals!), along with good Will and Fortitude saves. For your second class I'd then recommend a Slayer for extra skill points, sneak attack and Reflex saves.


The main problem here is that most shapeshifting spells last too little, On the other hand, wild shape is not versatile enough.
So, while waiting for a "true shapeshifter" class, I'd take Mythic archmage/ trickster with the Path Dabbling ability to take the Enduring Blessing hierophant ability. This way, all your shapeshifting spells will last 24 hours.
That said, take the Aberrant bloodline.


@Kestral: Yes, 20/10/Gestalt is the starting point. I thought about Dual Path Hierophant, actually, for Enduring Blessing. Make Shapechange last 24 hours. Or Dual Path Trickster, then do Path Dabbling for Hierophant. Depends on if there's something else useful in Trickster.

And I think EVERYBODY is buying a Staff of Wish. I need it just to keep up with the Joneses. =)

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:

Well, if you're the Mythic 10 guy for your army, you want the utility of a Level 20 Wizard.

Create networks of permanent teleportation circles, demi-planes, etc. for your army to use.

If however you side with zanbato13 on going with full BAB, I'd recommend axing my recommendation for using a Feral Hunter, and use a regular druid instead. At that point you have Shapeshifting covered, full casting (including Awaken Animal, your army could be composed entirely of animals!), along with good Will and Fortitude saves. For your second class I'd then recommend a Slayer for extra skill points, sneak attack and Reflex saves.

I can get BOTH, however. Wizard (or Arcanist, I haven't decided yet), and one other class.

Druid doesn't really fit my theme (Which is more based on mutations, aberrations, and unnatural transformations), and I'm not really convinced it's the best option.

I've tossed around a few options for class 2, since Shapeshifting Mastery makes a full BaB class less necessary. One was a Divine caster for a Mystic Theurge in a can. I had considered Shaman as the other half.

Aegis gives me several extra natural attacks (4 tentacles and a Stinger), as well as a few extra abilities (Blindsight, always on Flight, and so on) so I can still be mutated when not transformed.

Simple Fighter, just so I have a gajillion Feats. The least powerful option, probably.

Summoner, for a mutant companion. A bit more casting, increased action economy. Could be a solid option, and fits the flavor. Downside: A whole 'nother character sheet to roll up.

And finally Brawler. Shaepshift into a form with one big Natural Attack and Flurry away with Feral Combat Training.


I could also do Alchemist, Vivisectionist. Which may be one of the better options, actually. Hrm.

Flavor-wise it fits, and some Discoveries are amazing. I could Dual Path Trickster and take advantage of some of the Sneak Attack Path abilities, and get that one that lets you have Potion effects on for 24 hours, combined with something like Eternal Potion and Enduring Blessing means I could have several buffs up all day every day.

Edit: As for the full caster side, I think I've cut out Sorcerer...maybe. I much prefer Spontaneous casting (I find prepared casting tedious and would just prepare the same spells every day anyway), but just going Wizard or Arcanist and taking Mythic Eldritch Heritage with a Robe of Arcane Heritage for Aberrant sounds like an all around better deal. I'd get a full Bloodline, plus all the Wizard or Arcanist stuff.

There is, however, also the idea of going Sorcerer and essentially getting the Crossblooded archetype with none of the crippling downsides and a couple of Feats.

Is there another Bloodline that's stellar (besides the obvious in Arcane)?


Druid and Primal Companion Hunter. you get Evolution like a Eidolon. And the limit on max attacks is not for you...

An animal companion transformed in this way cannot exceed the maximum number of attacks available to the eidolon of a summoner whose class level equals that of the hunter

If a primal companion hunter's animal companion is dead, she can apply these evolutions to herself instead of to her animal companion. Uses of this ability count toward the hunter's maximum daily duration of evolution use.

so you can have 26 tentacles.

it's only for 20 min/day


The staff of wish isn't the neat part. It's the Arcane Sorcerer capstone combined with the staff that's the neat part.
Of course everyone's gonna have one, duh!
But you'll be the only one who doesn't have to bother with using charges. ;)


Hm.

Wizard: Divination or Void?

On the one hand, going first all the time is pretty rad, and granting yourself a +10 Insight bonus to basically everything (using Amazing initiative) is even radder.

On the other hand, giving your enemies a -10 to saves and then whacking them with an SoS/SoD is also pretty rad, and the Void Wizard's spell selection for bonus spell slots is better IMO.

Neo2151 wrote:

The staff of wish isn't the neat part. It's the Arcane Sorcerer capstone combined with the staff that's the neat part.

Of course everyone's gonna have one, duh!
But you'll be the only one who doesn't have to bother with using charges. ;)

Lol.

I think a Staff of the Master might actually be better though. I can get a Legendary Item that can cast Wish 1/day for free for just one Path ability, getting something that lets me cast Quicken for free is a bit harder on the other hand.


Ooh, if I go Wizard I can True Name a Pasha instead.

Inteldasting. Better than a Staff if I treat him right.


What I have so far.

If nothing else I'll have permabuffs out the ass. A permanent potion, a 24 hour buff from Enduring Blessing, a 24 hour buff from the Ring of Continuation, and a 24 hour buff from Enduring Elixir (this one I took to the 1 min/level version because there's a lot of good 1 min/level Alchemist Extracts).

Thinking I'll keep Shapechange, Displacement and Heroism on all the time, and whip out a Monstrous Physique IV if I'm not feeling dragon-ly that day.

Liberty's Edge

Have you looked at the skin-changer class from the New Paths Compendium (Kobold Press)?

It' all about shape shifting


Cool, but not really what I'm looking for. May be something I ask my next GM for though, it looks fun. =)

In this case, it encroaches too much on the person with the Nature theme, and honestly Beast Shape 3 looks a bit lackluster compared to Shapechange and Monstrous Physique IV.


Mythic Paths of the Lost Spheres has a very shapechanger specific mythic path.


Is it on the SRD? If so, link it for me?

Oh, by the by, anybody have good ideas for good shapes for Monstrous Physique IV? I know of good ones for most of the others (Tendriculos for Plant shape, Air/Water Elemental for Elemental Body, Brass dragon for Form of the Dragon, and so on), but not for MP.


I don't think it's on the SRD. It was just recently released.


Ah, that sucks. Only stuff on the SRD is available for play. If it pops up on there before the deadline I'll take a look.

What was it called? I can keep an eye out for it.


Mythic Paths of the Lost Spheres


...I meant the Mythic Path specifically.


Monstrous Physique: The Four-Armed Gargoyle is my favorite for general use. Darkvision 60ft, Fly 60ft (average), six natural attacks, and Rend makes it a solid buzzsaw. Calikangs have six natural attacks of their own, but trade in flight for a breath weapon and Immunity (turned Resistance 20) to electricity. Dopplegangers are situational but you get Mimicry, which could be amusing.


Calikang was one I'd considered because the Electric breath weapon is solid (14d6+20 Sweet.).

Also, I completely missed that Mimicry was a potential option. Being able to use any scroll or wand without UMD is pretty rad.


Rynjin wrote:
...I meant the Mythic Path specifically.

Wow, isn't my face red.

Master of Shapes


You mentioned 3rd party allowed. Have you given any thought to the Taskshaper?
You gain an Su Shapechange in case someone dispel your spells, the ability to change your feats and skill ranks, the ability to add more natural attacks and monster abilities on top of what your current form has, and, best of all, copy class abilities (not sure how it works with rage, bard performances and sneak attack, but smite, challenge and studied combat are very stackable).


A 20 Invulnerable Rager Barb/20 Druid would be pretty powerful. You get DR 10/- from invulnerable rager, and your rage and wild shape bonuses stack. This nets you a +14 bonus to strength with full spell casting from your druid. If you don't like the natural animal side of things you could pick a druid option that let you shift into something with a little more aberration flavor. The Cave Druid lets you play as an ooze, for example, while the blight druid lets you fight as a rotting Allosaurus that infects everything it touches with noxious fumes and disease.


VM mercenario wrote:

You mentioned 3rd party allowed. Have you given any thought to the Taskshaper?

You gain an Su Shapechange in case someone dispel your spells, the ability to change your feats and skill ranks, the ability to add more natural attacks and monster abilities on top of what your current form has, and, best of all, copy class abilities (not sure how it works with rage, bard performances and sneak attack, but smite, challenge and studied combat are very stackable).

Honestly the Taskshaper is a bit too complex for my taste, even after they trimmed it down.

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