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If evasion is that important, you can always just get it as a ring.
Besides, it wont help you vs phantasmal killer.
True...
Realizing that my wife's Wizard died to a PK our last game together... The spell had been targeted first at my Investigator (which I was running as a Rogue), and when I asked about the fact that I was using stealth (stated at the start of the round, on my turn), it got (corrected) to re-target the Wizard (as an Elf she carries a longbow, so she "looks like a rogue"). Result? Wizard KIA in the first round of the first combat encounter of the game.
PK works very well when you can see the Rogue to target it...
(time to move the goal post again)
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That said the only reason to not like it is if you have some idea of them that's not what they are specifically designed for.
If you could tell me what they are specifically designed for, that would be helpful to the discussion. It seems like they should be good at using skills, since they get more than any other class. It seems like they should be in melee combat because they get a lot of bonus damage that is much easier to get off when you are in melee.
But they aren't actually that good at either of those things.
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"PK works very well when you can see the Rogue to target it.."
Without hide in plain sight, rogues are frequently easy to spot. Stealth, in my experience, is a very flimsy defense in PFS.
I'm not going to move any goal posts. I just simply don't like the combination of class features that rogues bring to the table. Skills in particular are easily accessible to other classes, sneak attack is inferior dpr, and their save array sucks.
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I'll take my chances without evasion, thanks. I really like improved evasion, but the fact that you have to make the roll to me makes evasion pretty weak.
On top of that, I have seen WAY more Pathfinders hosed over by fort and will effects. Effects that both crush rogues.
"...but the fact that you have to make the roll ..."
a roll on your best save, backed up with what is often your best stat... a first level Rogue often has a +7 relex save. It's not unusual for a 3rd level rogue to break into double digits on that roll he has to make.
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I'll take my chances without evasion, thanks. I really like improved evasion, but the fact that you have to make the roll to me makes evasion pretty weak.
On top of that, I have seen WAY more Pathfinders hosed over by fort and will effects. Effects that both crush rogues.
"...but the fact that you have to make the roll ..."
a roll on your best save, backed up with what is often your best stat... a first level Rogue often has a +7 relex save. It's not unusual for a 3rd level rogue to break into double digits on that roll he has to make.
Sorry, still don't like it. And classes other than rogue have evasion. I don't evasion in an overall sense. I find that taking numerical damage from an opponent is often the least bad thing that can happen. Skill that mitigate numerical damage are not a high priority to me.
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Anyone can use stealth or invisibility. I don't see that as a class feature of the rogue. At least the wizard had a better chance of making the will save than the rogue.
(time to move the goal post again)
My wife's wizard had cast Improved Invisibility before entering the room... so that comment kind of hurts.
but one of the monsters used his first action to go Invisible and our party cleric had just cast Invisibility Purge to find the target.
Her wizard would likely have been stealthing too, but she had stepped out of the room to get her "invisible figure" - so she was a little rushed (first round of combat and everything). "I cast Improved Invisible and move to here, I'll be back in a second...". She returned to the room to be told... "Make a save... another? Re-roll? Ok you're dead."
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1 Unit of Burn is amount of non-lethal HP equal to your level. So 1 Burn = 1 hp at L1, 2 hp at L2, 3hp at L3, etc. You cannot heal this damage until you rest for 8 hours.
So, basically, you can amplify/modify certain abilities by accepting Burn. And there are built in ways to reduce Burn. But Kineticists who go nova too early could be shouldering a considerable chunk of HP loss for a scenario.
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Howdy folks!
So many topics, so little time. I skimmed over all that was posted and I did miss things such as "PK". I have no idea what that meant.
As for rogues, I think the reason people see rogues as a problem is sneak attack, the main offensive ability, is conditional and will put the PC behind enemy lines. AC is a must and expensive to get W/O heavy or medium armor. I think other posting PF players see the Bab as another weakness.
In the beginning of the thread there was a little worry about the popularity of PF or PFS across the U.S. First, most universities, colleges and schools have mid terms and papers to be ready for. Then, there is a major brand name reintroducing an old role playing game.
Give the 5th edition role playing game time to wear out its players with major errata changes and for players to simply lose interest. In a year we shall see if the popularity is here to stay or if it is another gimmick like its 4th edition predecessor.
To me, the Investigator is a fight heavy class. It doesn't have the bomb feature Alchemists have. The extracts are "spells" that are more defensive or melee offensive in nature.
Like the Alchemist, the best weapon these two classes have (don't laugh) is the long spear and spear. You can take a feat for a better crit weapon that has a d8 or larger for damage but remember the theme of these two classes.
These two classes fight in melee but are not brute force fighters like Barbarians, Paladins or Fighters. These are finesse fighting classes. They are designed to BUFF long term buffs and enter the proverbial dungeon. Suspect a fight nearby, buffs that are minutes get prepared and during a fight buff the "per round" spells.
I noticed players that only specialize in the Alchemists bombs run out of bombs fairly quickly. Then, there is the poison stuff. Both classes can raise the DC's of the poison on there own.
I am having more success with my Alchemist with bombs, poison and fighting trying to improve all at once with feats plus discoveries or inspirations. The Alchemists extracts make the fighting with poison (sometimes W/O poison) and bombs much more efficient. My Investigator is still first level, the Alchemist 6th. Both are for PFS.
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Some of the ACG material almost seems to work better on non-ACG classes. For example, I image most pre-existing Dervish Dance Magi will have a field day with Flamboyant Arcana: Precise Strike. Eldritch Scion with Arcane Bloodline makes the Magus even better at breaking the action economy, and complements the anti-caster arcana already available to them. Similarly, Spirit Guide adds a boatload of flexibility to Oracles, with little real downside--most mysteries have only a few key revelations anyways, Battle being the notable exception.
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Eh, I'd be careful with the arcane deed arcana(you'll need that too to get precise strike). It's criminally good and won't stay intact for long. Two feats(or one feat+one arcana) to add your level on damage rolls? Sheesh.
I'd love to like Eldritch Scion, but it takes a swift action and an arcane point to enter the mystic focus and you'll only benefit from bloodrage abilities for 2 rounds. Not to mention, spell combat requires mystic focus until level 8. With 1/2 lvl + Cha mod worth of points in your pool, the fun is going to be short-lived. Yeah, I just built my nagaji scion as a buffing melee guy and forewent spell combat entirely.
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Sure it burns resources, but with arcane bloodline that swift action is getting you haste+blur at level 8--and you can be very selective in how it's used, only popping it during rounds you need to use spell combat. Mind you, I've yet to play one, so I can't speak to its practicality or resource management in an actual scenario.
Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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I am super impressed with the investigator class. I played the level 4 Quinn pregen in a game yesterday that was above the level of my one other PFS character. Was he awesome in combat? No. But he was respectable with his mutagens and studied combat and his wonderful supply of elixirs.
However, more importantly, he was the best support character I've ever played -- and I love playing bards. He saved the party's bacon multiple times by being able to hit knowledge rolls in the thirties at level 4. We were playing one of those scenarios where a few key knowledge local and history rolls done at the very beginning determined how well prepared we were going in. The GM stated that this alone prevented most of the party members from suffering a very nasty effect in the very first room. Later on, he was able to identify nearly every monster, making them far more easy for the others to kill.
With his poison lore, he was able to treat and eradicate a nasty poison on a party member and cure them before it took effect. I didn't get a chance to use his trapfinding skills in that adventure, but I could see how he would pull his weight in a trap-heavy adventure.
I would totally play an investigator again. And this is supposed to be the "weakest" of the ACG classes (according to the GM and players that I played with yesterday.)
Hmm
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[QUOTE="N N 959"
I checked with a dev...
...Poison on a trap can be wiped off by anyone.
How do you check with dev? The only way I know is to post on the advice boards and hope someone answers that is a paizo minion employee.
For a while I didn't know when it was announced that employees wound answer on the advice board and I figure I'm kinda of not popular. Until I read the sticky I would be shocked with some of the answers cause they weren't in the books. This was over unarmed strikes.
Anyway, I imagine as a GM I could ask for the 5% chance that poison could end up on the character if the poison is a contact poison. The investigator's ability is sure fire that would never happen.
N N 959, I agree with you that this ability's usefulness does not occur very often and should have been expanded.