A compilation of the good stuff on Advanced Class Origins


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Hey, I don't play casters so I will avoid commenting on those classes or their spells. Someone else can get on it.

So, without further ado:

Bloodragers
Kyton bloodline is AWESOME. However, it seems more CHA heavy than other bloodlines. Magical Knack seems like a must for this BL. Still, between the combination of high AC, high Strength and Persuasive Goad, it looks like it would make for some amazing tanks. I'd combine it with Steelblood for an uber tank. The lost mobility is recovered later.
Black Blood bloodline is ohkay, with its hallmark being the extra reach. Perhaps, that could be combined with Kyton for a Cross-blooded Rager, and become a reach-based tank to counter the lack of good mobility early on. This requires heavy Will-save patching though.

Brawler
There's one crappy archetype and then there's the Winding Path Renegade. This latter archetype seems tricky to use, but very flexible.
The Metal path seems great for an Exemplar, since you will be using Close Weapons a lot... but it seems AMAZING for the Shield Champion. Get rid of that useless AC bonus, get a ton of movement speed and better items.
The Wind Path is alright, also very good for the Shield Champion and the Exemplar (if the Exemplar goes thrown weapon style).
I'd argue Flame Path is amazing for every other Brawler. You get fast movement, some grapple damage (situational, sadly), and TROLL POOL.
The best thing about this archetype is the ability to gain Improved Evasion on the fly though. Seems worth it to me, since it also allows for tricks with Martial Flexibility.
I'm not gonna say it's a must since the bonus feats and the AC might be nice to have, but I'm gonna say the archetype is overall an upgrade and it really makes you want to take Master of Many Styles so you stack the Faster Movement.

Investigator
Leipstadt Investigator archetype seems very good for combat focused Investigators, although it seems to be sort of a one-trick pony.
The real winner here is DOMINO STRIKE. That's a Talent that allows you to pass on Studied Combat from target to target whenever you use Studied Strike, which means you can have a HUGE uptime on it. THIS is a must for combat focused Sherlocks.

Skald
War Drummer archetype is awesome simply because it replaces Scribe Scroll (ew) for Weapon Training and Improved Critical and Quick Draw.
I'd say the archetype is a must, unless you really want to go skill monkey.
Dragon Skald is an oh-kay archetype for skill monkeys.

Slayer
Nothing AWESOME. Sczarni Executioner is nice for Assassinate based builds, but you are gonna need a high ass Intelligence score to assassinate dudes, and possibly the use of Headman's Blade and Ability Focus and stuff. Great mage killer though.

Swashbuckler
Oh boy. OH BOY.
First, let's start with the Shackles Corsair archetype. It's nice. Very good for Shatter Defenses builds, it has some great utility. I'd say it's an even trade though, so not a strict upgrade and much more specialized. But it seems very good for Intimidate builds anyhow.

THEN THERE'S THE WHIRLING DERVISH.
Free Dervish Dance is nice, but it also gets a free Whirlwind pounce, which is amazing! It solves your mobility issues right away, making it unnecessary to take Spring Attack or anything.

Warpriest
Mantis Zealot is the winner here, though it makes for specialized builds. The fact that you get Sneak Attack and you can get Deadly Stroke makes for a really nice build around Shatter Defenses, but you probably can't afford the points on CHA or STR (for Intimidating Prowess)... but you make for a nice Rogue-like build. Not entirely sold on this but it seems to have potential.

Feats and stuff
Besides Fencing Grace, the only thing that called my attention is the Mad Magic feat, that allows Bloodragers to use any spell they get from other classes while raging.

Contributor

Point — Whirlwind Dervish doesn't get free Dervish Dance. Whirlwind Dervish gets Dex to Damage with any weapon that the swashbuckler can use with its altered version of swashbuckler finesse. And Dervish Finesse doesn't actually remove your ability to Weapon Finesse with all light and one-handed piercing weapons. In effect, the Whirlwind Dervish can use Dex on attack and damage rolls with all light and one-handed piercing weapons plus the scimitar.


You so right! Seems like Whirlwind Dervish is better than I thought! Though, to be honest, there's no reason to use anything other than the Scimitar, considering it's such a great weapon.

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Secret Wizard wrote:
Though, to be honest, there's no reason to use anything other than the Scimitar, considering it's such a great weapon.

Unless you still take slashing grace so that you can use a falcata....

Contributor

Secret Wizard wrote:
You so right! Seems like Whirlwind Dervish is better than I thought! Though, to be honest, there's no reason to use anything other than the Scimitar, considering it's such a great weapon.

The archetype's biggest weakness is that it heavily penalizes panache regeneration — it basically turns off panache regeneration for lethal attacks done to anything but evil outsiders and undead.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
You so right! Seems like Whirlwind Dervish is better than I thought! Though, to be honest, there's no reason to use anything other than the Scimitar, considering it's such a great weapon.
The archetype's biggest weakness is that it heavily penalizes panache regeneration — it basically turns off panache regeneration for lethal attacks done to anything but evil outsiders and undead.

Pretty sure death blow regeneration dwarfs crit regeneration, if you are using a Scimitar... consider that you can autoconfirm crits to boot.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I just wanted to stop in here to throw my hat in for Domino Strike being really awesome. I'm going to build a Cleave-focused Investigator that makes very good use of that ability. :)


I'd honestly wouldn't... I feel that the best use of it is a build that deals a TON of single target damage (big crits, Power Attack, the works) to then Domino onto another target, and blow him up as well.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Point — Whirlwind Dervish doesn't get free Dervish Dance. Whirlwind Dervish gets Dex to Damage with any weapon that the swashbuckler can use with its altered version of swashbuckler finesse. And Dervish Finesse doesn't actually remove your ability to Weapon Finesse with all light and one-handed piercing weapons. In effect, the Whirlwind Dervish can use Dex on attack and damage rolls with all light and one-handed piercing weapons plus the scimitar.

Laughing about how the Swash continues to be even more of a "crazy good dip/crazy weak class" than the Monk


Arachnofiend wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Point — Whirlwind Dervish doesn't get free Dervish Dance. Whirlwind Dervish gets Dex to Damage with any weapon that the swashbuckler can use with its altered version of swashbuckler finesse. And Dervish Finesse doesn't actually remove your ability to Weapon Finesse with all light and one-handed piercing weapons. In effect, the Whirlwind Dervish can use Dex on attack and damage rolls with all light and one-handed piercing weapons plus the scimitar.
Laughing about how the Swash continues to be even more of a "crazy good dip/crazy weak class" than the Monk

In what world is swash a weak class?


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The world where people make saving throws.

Designer

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Glad to hear you guys like Domino Strike!


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As a note, Mad Magic looks really exciting to me. Bloodrager is now a very good entry class for Eldritch Knight.


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Swashbucklers are great at saving throws! Charmed Life gives you ~+4 to any important save, basically duplicating the Divine Protection feat that keeps getting mentioned as the new must-have/broken feat. Sure, you need to conserve your immediate action to use it, but it's still literally a life-saver.

My level 7 swashbuckler's Will save against mind-affecting compulsions (or charms) is +17 with Steadfast Personality, Irrepressible, and Charmed Life. Triple-dipping Cha to saves gets pretty ridiculous. Between myself and the multi-classed brawler with a +1 Will save, guess who has been dominated multiple times and who shrugs it off? Almost any important Will save is mind-affecting or a compulsion or both. And if you add Battle Cry into the mix, that covers Fear as well AND give you a reroll if you ever DO manage to fail a save.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Glad to hear you guys like Domino Strike!

Yo Mark Domino Strike is so good because it addresses a key concern for Investigators, which is the fact that Studied Strike expends Studied Combat. This is a great patch and you should be proud...

However, a few things weren't "patched" yet, and I hope you get the time to look at them... the lack of movement speed of the Brawler and its low AC make it very hard to use effectively. If only it had good Will saves or Evasion...

I like the archetype Paizo added for the Brawler that gives them fast movement and Evasion, but with Pummeling Charge being frowned upon now, I still believe the Brawler is lacking a bit of oomph, either on its AC, on its mobility, or its saves.

I hope the Winding Path Renegade doesn't become mandatory and some ability is given to grant the Brawler some of those things!


RumpinRufus wrote:
Swashbucklers are great at saving throws! Charmed Life gives you ~+4 to any important save, basically duplicating the Divine Protection feat that keeps getting mentioned as the new must-have/broken feat. Sure, you need to conserve your immediate action to use it, but it's still literally a life-saver.

+4 to any important save, a few times a day...which still doesn't make up for BOTH of your important save progressions being terrible. +4 merely cancels out the penalty from poor Will/Fort progression,

RumpinRufus wrote:
My level 7 swashbuckler's Will save against mind-affecting compulsions (or charms) is +17 with Steadfast Personality, Irrepressible, and Charmed Life. Triple-dipping Cha to saves gets pretty ridiculous.

I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

RumpinRufus wrote:
Between myself and the multi-classed brawler with a +1 Will save, guess who has been dominated multiple times and who shrugs it off? Almost any important Will save is mind-affecting or a compulsion or both. And if you add Battle Cry into the mix, that covers Fear as well AND give you a reroll if you ever DO manage to fail a save.

Comparing yourself to a character who seems to have steadfastly refused to take any class with a Will save progression doesn't help you a ton.


Rynjin wrote:


RumpinRufus wrote:
My level 7 swashbuckler's Will save against mind-affecting compulsions (or charms) is +17 with Steadfast Personality, Irrepressible, and Charmed Life. Triple-dipping Cha to saves gets pretty ridiculous.
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

I saw the FAQ, and the triple-dip of Cha to saves is still 100% legit. Irrepressible is not a bonus at all, it lets you use Cha instead of Wis (incidentally making a wisdom dump into an unusually harmless option.) Steadfast Personality gives an insight bonus. Charmed Life gives an untyped bonus, so by the new FAQ this is the only one that counts as a "charisma bonus" to the save.

So yeah, between the three you get your charisma bonus three times to a mind-affecting compulsion (or charm).

Ok, I can stop derailing this thread now. If you think swashbucklers are weak though, you are not building them right.


In a world where other classes have easy access to its best stuff.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


RumpinRufus wrote:
My level 7 swashbuckler's Will save against mind-affecting compulsions (or charms) is +17 with Steadfast Personality, Irrepressible, and Charmed Life. Triple-dipping Cha to saves gets pretty ridiculous.
I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

I saw the FAQ, and the triple-dip of Cha to saves is still 100% legit. Irrepressible is not a bonus at all, it lets you use Cha instead of Wis (incidentally making a wisdom dump into an unusually harmless option.) Steadfast Personality gives an insight bonus. Charmed Life gives an untyped bonus, so by the new FAQ this is the only one that counts as a "charisma bonus" to the save.

So yeah, between the three you get your charisma bonus three times to a mind-affecting compulsion (or charm).

Nein. "Replace X with Y" and "Add Y" no longer stack. The best example is a Conversion Inquisition Inquisitor with the Infiltrator archetype doesn't get 2x Wis to Bluff/Diplomacy/Etc.

But, the Insight bonus still stacks, so there's that at least.

RumpinRufus wrote:
Ok, I can stop derailing this thread now. If you think swashbucklers are weak though, you are not building them right.

The funniest part is you spent 2 Feats and a Trait and still haven't done anything about your Fort save, or aided your combat ability.

Scarab Sages

Looks like Whirling Dervish is missing "This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 4th level." from the end of the Dervish Dance ability.

Grand Lodge

sadly no swordlord swashbuckler archetype Brevoy companion confirmed?


Rynjin wrote:
Nein. "Replace X with Y" and "Add Y" no longer stack. The best example is a Conversion Inquisition Inquisitor with the Infiltrator archetype doesn't get 2x Wis to Bluff/Diplomacy/Etc.

Where are you getting this from?

Quote:
The funniest part is you spent 2 Feats and a Trait and still haven't done anything about your Fort save, or aided your combat ability.

My combat ability doesn't need help. Extra damage, early-access Improved Critical, full BAB, extra attacks from riposting, and always-on level to damage will do that. And btw, Battle Cry does improve your combat ability.

Dark Archive

Mad Magic is superb if you need it, pointless if you don't.

People who can use it include Eldritch Knight and Dragon Disciple obviously.

Rage Prophet loses most of its class features, may not work any more.

A big winner is the infamous Bloodrager/Scarred Witch Doctor multiclass. Con based Rager who can use all of the Witch Hexes and spells while raging. For one feat.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Nein. "Replace X with Y" and "Add Y" no longer stack. The best example is a Conversion Inquisition Inquisitor with the Infiltrator archetype doesn't get 2x Wis to Bluff/Diplomacy/Etc.

Where are you getting this from?

From Mark Seifter, in the thread discussing the FAQ.

RumpinRufus wrote:


My combat ability doesn't need help. Extra damage, early-access Improved Critical, full BAB, extra attacks from riposting, and always-on level to damage will do that. And btw, Battle Cry does improve your combat ability.

One wonders how you're using Parry/Riposte when you're also using Charmed Life.

As well, combat ability is not just predicated on damage.


9mm wrote:
sadly no swordlord swashbuckler archetype Brevoy companion confirmed?

Why would you need one?

To be fair, the Intimidate bonus granted by the Shackles Corsair archetype here seems to work straight into the PrC. You can always Slashing Grace an ADS so I don't see why you'd need a specific archetype for this, in the same vein that a specific archetype for small Brawlers is needed.


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Rynjin wrote:
From Mark Seifter, in the thread discussing the FAQ.

Forum posts are not RAW.

Rynjin wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
My combat ability doesn't need help. Extra damage, early-access Improved Critical, full BAB, extra attacks from riposting, and always-on level to damage will do that. And btw, Battle Cry does improve your combat ability.

One wonders how you're using Parry/Riposte when you're also using Charmed Life.

As well, combat ability is not just predicated on damage.

You can parry and use Charmed Life just fine. And swashbucklers also have good mobility, good defense, good skills, and good debuffs. I don't want to derail this thread any further, but I get the feeling you haven't actually played a swash (at least not a well-built one.)


And just to quiet down the other debate, Swashbucklers are one of the most damaging classes in the game, they are not terrible at all.

They do need party support not to get focus-targeted and die, though. Still, they deal ridiculous damage.

Grand Lodge

Secret Wizard wrote:
9mm wrote:
sadly no swordlord swashbuckler archetype Brevoy companion confirmed?

Why would you need one?

To be fair, the Intimidate bonus granted by the Shackles Corsair archetype here seems to work straight into the PrC. You can always Slashing Grace an ADS so I don't see why you'd need a specific archetype for this, in the same vein that a specific archetype for small Brawlers is needed.

because the Fighter one doesn't get EWP (dueling Sword).

I wish I was kidding.


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RumpinRufus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
From Mark Seifter, in the thread discussing the FAQ.
Forum posts are not RAW.

They are when they're officially posted clarifications for a FAQ posted in that very thread.

RumpinRufus wrote:


You can parry and use Charmed Life just fine.

But not get extra attacks with Riposte, as you claimed.

RumpinRufus wrote:
And swashbucklers also have good mobility

Their mobility is just as good as any non-magical martial character with no reason to move, no special movement modes, and not even an increase in speed.

That is, not very.

RumpinRufus wrote:
good defense

Light armor, a limited ability to block one attack (assuming they roll higher than the enemy), terrible saves, and no special defenses.

Your and my definitions of "good" are different.

A Paladin has good defenses. A Barbarian has good defenses. Spellcasters have good defenses.

The Swashbuckler does not.

RumpinRufus wrote:
good skills

4+Int is not good. It is average.

RumpinRufus wrote:
and good debuffs.

Admittedly a no-save Stagger effect is pretty cool. Unfortunately it's a Full Round action, melee only, and single target, which holds it back considerably.

RumpinRufus wrote:
I don't want to derail this thread any further, but I get the feeling you haven't actually played a swash (at least not a well-built one.)

I have, actually. I playtested one at 7th level, and they've gotten no significant boosts from there.

They are simply not as good as other, sturdier martial options that still hit nearly as hard (or just as, or moreso).

The Daring Champion is just a slap in the face, but at least it's a good class.


Rynjin wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
From Mark Seifter, in the thread discussing the FAQ.
Forum posts are not RAW.
They are when they're officially posted clarifications for a FAQ posted in that very thread.

And where are you getting this?


Ta-da

Here,take the red pill

Thats the one highlighted in RED.


Deadkitten, you realize that that's what we've been discussing this whole time, don't you?

According to that FAQ, Charmed Life will stack with Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality. One replaces Wis with Cha, one is a "charisma bonus", and one is an insight bonus. The question is whether there is anything in RAW that would prevent "X replaces Y" and "add X" to not stack. Not forum posts, but RAW.

Shadow Lodge

Investigator's talent is actually Domino Effect, not Domino Strike.

The 30ft range on witch hexes have always vexed me, so the Amplified Hex feat has my attention, allowing you to extend the range by 30ft at the cost of an ever-raising spell slot per use.

I feel like the druid/shaman's Spirit Call spell would be useful to increase caster level of their spell for an encounter (level 1, mins/level), but I'm not sure what other spells it would benefit with, off the top of my head.

Imbue Hex looks like it needs errata - it says the spell can be dismissed, but doesn't have a (D) on the duration, which is otherwise permanent or discharged (which sounds like it leaves the witch or shaman hexless and at the target's mercy).

And it's worth mentioning, the book has a big table called Qualifying for Prestige Classes, which is a list of suitable hybrid classes to match up with prestige class requirements from the prestige classes in the CRB or Paths of Prestige.

Contributor

Arachnofiend wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Point — Whirlwind Dervish doesn't get free Dervish Dance. Whirlwind Dervish gets Dex to Damage with any weapon that the swashbuckler can use with its altered version of swashbuckler finesse. And Dervish Finesse doesn't actually remove your ability to Weapon Finesse with all light and one-handed piercing weapons. In effect, the Whirlwind Dervish can use Dex on attack and damage rolls with all light and one-handed piercing weapons plus the scimitar.
Laughing about how the Swash continues to be even more of a "crazy good dip/crazy weak class" than the Monk

That Dex to damage bit requires 4th level. Not great for dipping.

Also, the archetype has some killer deeds.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Deadkitten, you realize that that's what we've been discussing this whole time, don't you?

According to that FAQ, Charmed Life will stack with Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality. One replaces Wis with Cha, one is a "charisma bonus", and one is an insight bonus. The question is whether there is anything in RAW that would prevent "X replaces Y" and "add X" to not stack. Not forum posts, but RAW.

"RAW" they stacked.

Until this FAQ. Which is an errata. Which changes the RAW.

Ability bonuses are now a "secondary source" (more of those wonderful unwritten rules). Untyped stat bonuses are now considered to be from the same source.

Examples used in reference to this rule: Undead Antipaladins only add Cha once to Fort saves, Inquisitor Replace Wis/Add Wis bonuses not stacking, Dragon Ferocity no longer functioning (which is why there was a follow-up FAQ fixing that).

The first two are explicitly intentional consequences.

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't change that that is what it does.

Forum posts are not rules changes, true. FAQs are, however, and posts clarifying exactly what the FAQ implies, in the thread in which the FAQ was posted, with the PDT's full consensus on the matter are just as valid rules-wise as anything else.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Point — Whirlwind Dervish doesn't get free Dervish Dance. Whirlwind Dervish gets Dex to Damage with any weapon that the swashbuckler can use with its altered version of swashbuckler finesse. And Dervish Finesse doesn't actually remove your ability to Weapon Finesse with all light and one-handed piercing weapons. In effect, the Whirlwind Dervish can use Dex on attack and damage rolls with all light and one-handed piercing weapons plus the scimitar.
Laughing about how the Swash continues to be even more of a "crazy good dip/crazy weak class" than the Monk

That Dex to damage bit requires 4th level. Not great for dipping.

Also, the archetype has some killer deeds.

Yeah, I said that before getting the book, assumed it was an earlier thing with the way other people talked about it.

My point still stands though because Inspired Blade qualifies for Fencing Grace at level 1 regardless of race.


Arachnofiend wrote:


My point still stands though because Inspired Blade qualifies for Fencing Grace at level 1 regardless of race.

Yeah, I'm looking at multiclassing Inspired Blade 1 to get me through the first few levels of investigator. Dex to hit and damage right from the start will be a huge help.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Deadkitten, you realize that that's what we've been discussing this whole time, don't you?

According to that FAQ, Charmed Life will stack with Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality. One replaces Wis with Cha, one is a "charisma bonus", and one is an insight bonus. The question is whether there is anything in RAW that would prevent "X replaces Y" and "add X" to not stack. Not forum posts, but RAW.

faq wrote:

Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?

No

There's your answer RumpinRufus, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice? answer is, No. if you replace with charisma and then add charisma then you'd be charisma twice to that roll, which is forbidden due to the faq.


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I got to ask why do shamans get pretty much all the healing related spells except remove disease?


Aido_Hwedo wrote:
I got to ask why do shamans get pretty much all the healing related spells except remove disease?

Because blindspots are good? If a class can do everything, then it leaves no room for others to do it their way.


*looks at oracles, druids, clerics, inquisitors, and even witches*

But besides that looks like a decent book. Gonna need to pick it up later for the lore.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Aido_Hwedo wrote:
I got to ask why do shamans get pretty much all the healing related spells except remove disease?
Because blindspots are good? If a class can do everything, then it leaves no room for others to do it their way.

If that's true then Paizo failed with Clerics.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Aido_Hwedo wrote:
I got to ask why do shamans get pretty much all the healing related spells except remove disease?
Because blindspots are good? If a class can do everything, then it leaves no room for others to do it their way.
If that's true then Paizo failed with Clerics.

Didn't say otherwise XD

Lantern Lodge

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RumpinRufus wrote:

Deadkitten, you realize that that's what we've been discussing this whole time, don't you?

According to that FAQ, Charmed Life will stack with Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality. One replaces Wis with Cha, one is a "charisma bonus", and one is an insight bonus. The question is whether there is anything in RAW that would prevent "X replaces Y" and "add X" to not stack. Not forum posts, but RAW.

Rynjin is giving it to you straight.

You may use Steadfast Personality (an insight bonus) with either Charmed Life or Irrepressible, but with the new FAQ clarification, they will not stack.

A corresponding example would be a Paladin 2/Oracle 1 who had both Divine Grace, as well as Sidestep Secret. Such a character would only have Cha to Reflex saves once, even though Sidestep Secret replaces Dex in this instance.

That said, low level Swashbucklers are where the poor saves is really felt. Once you get a bit higher up there, 7+ or so, especially if you are a half-orc, it's manageable - but by no means "good".


Ok, I admit I was wrong. Charmed Life (or Divine Grace, etc.) will no longer stack with Irrepressible.

I was thinking of the normal ability mod that goes to saves as being a different category than extra bonuses being added, but that does not seem to be the case. Sorry for derailing the thread.

Regardless, adding Cha twice to Will saves still gives swashbucklers with Steadfast Personality better Will saves than most other classes. I will take a +13 at level 7, even if a +18 would be nicer.

Dark Archive

Lormyr wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

Deadkitten, you realize that that's what we've been discussing this whole time, don't you?

According to that FAQ, Charmed Life will stack with Irrepressible and Steadfast Personality. One replaces Wis with Cha, one is a "charisma bonus", and one is an insight bonus. The question is whether there is anything in RAW that would prevent "X replaces Y" and "add X" to not stack. Not forum posts, but RAW.

Rynjin is giving it to you straight.

You may use Steadfast Personality (an insight bonus) with either Charmed Life or Irrepressible, but with the new FAQ clarification, they will not stack.

A corresponding example would be a Paladin 2/Oracle 1 who had both Divine Grace, as well as Sidestep Secret. Such a character would only have Cha to Reflex saves once, even though Sidestep Secret replaces Dex in this instance.

That said, low level Swashbucklers are where the poor saves is really felt. Once you get a bit higher up there, 7+ or so, especially if you are a half-orc, it's manageable - but by no means "good".

Can that end the argument about Swashbuckler saves, please? Look at the thread title. It's an interesting question that merits discussion, please don't turn this thread into yet another boring back and forth about a minor technical point. It's awful and it's no fun.

So...

Amplified Hex is very good. You can blow a spell to give your Hex a +1 to DC. As if the Witch doesn't get enough debuffs, this is for when your Icy Tomb definitely positively has to stick.

Expanded Spell Kenning allows a Skald to cast Druid or Witch spells as well as Cleric and Wizard and Bard spells. Just in case you felt you had limited options.

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Wait, Fencing Grace only works for rapiers? One specific type of piercing weapon? When Slashing Grace lets you choose any non-two-handed slashing weapon? So it's still better to use a big hulking slashing weapon on a class all about using agile piercng weapons?

Come on, Paizo! You had two books to get this right. Oh, okay, so the feat also gives a +2 against disarm attempts? That seems useful on a class that gains immunity to all combat maneuvers targeting their weapon of choice.


Cyrad wrote:
When Slashing Grace lets you choose any non-two-handed slashing weapon?

Slashing Grace only applies to one-handed weapons, not to light weapons.

Lantern Lodge

Cyrad wrote:

Wait, Fencing Grace only works for rapiers? One specific type of piercing weapon? When Slashing Grace lets you choose any non-two-handed slashing weapon? So it's still better to use a big hulking slashing weapon on a class all about using agile piercng weapons?

Come on, Paizo! You had two books to get this right. Oh, okay, so the feat also gives a +2 against disarm attempts? That seems useful on a class that gains immunity to all combat maneuvers targeting their weapon of choice.

In fairness, that PCs have any option at all for Dex to damage is pretty damn strong, perhaps even unbalanced. If we were to decide Dex to damage is an acceptable mechanic (which they clearly did), having it come with stipulations is not exactly out of line.

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RumpinRufus wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
When Slashing Grace lets you choose any non-two-handed slashing weapon?
Slashing Grace only applies to one-handed weapons, not to light weapons.

So we still have the situation where a class all about grace and agility with piercing weapons can add their Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with a bastard sword, but not a dagger.

Lormyr wrote:
In fairness, that PCs have any option at all for Dex to damage is pretty damn strong, perhaps even unbalanced. If we were to decide Dex to damage is an acceptable mechanic (which they clearly did), having it come with stipulations is not exactly out of line.

Oh, I agree with you that it's strong and should not come without cost. I'm not here to start a "Dex to Damage balance" argument. Like you said, Paizo already decided this is an acceptable mechanic, but implemented it in such a bafflingly horrible way. Remember this was an advertised feature of the swashbuckler.

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