Swashbuckler dip?


Advice


I am working on an oracle for PFS and I'm not terribly satisfied with how she is turning out. She'll be a melee focused oracle, either battle or metal mystery but I'm having a hard time settling between the two. To complicate things, a 1 level dip in Swashbuckler will get me some nice goodies and has pleasant synergy for an Oracle.

Hanako Ryar 1

Spoiler:

Female kitsune oracle 12 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 192)
CG Medium humanoid (kitsune, shapechanger)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +4 dexterity, +1 dodge)
hp 111 (12d8+48)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +8
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee scimitar +14/+9 (1d6+4/18-20) or
bite +8 (1d4)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +15)
3/day—dancing lights
Oracle Spells Known (CL 12th; concentration +15)
6th (3/day)—mass cure moderate wounds, wall of iron
5th (5/day)—mass cure light wounds, major creation, telekinesis
4th (6/day)—cure critical wounds, versatile weapon{super}APG{/super} (DC 17)
3rd (7/day)—cure serious wounds, keen edge
2nd (7/day)—cure moderate wounds, heat metal (DC 15), levitate, minor image (DC 15)
1st (7/day)—cure light wounds, lead blades{super}APG{/super}
0 (at will)—ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand
Mystery Metal
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +9; CMB +10; CMD 25
Feats Dervish Dance[ISWG], Dodge, Extra Revelation[APG], Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar)
Traits dangerously curious, seeker
Skills Acrobatics +5, Diplomacy +18, Perception +16, Perform (dance) +5, Sense Motive +15, Use Magic Device +17; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics
Languages Common, Sylvan
SQ change shape, kitsune magic, mystery (metal), oracle's curse (haunted), revelation (armor mastery, dance of the blades, iron constitution, iron skin, skill at arms)
Other Gear kikko armor, scimitar, 105 gp
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Special Abilities
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Armor Mastery +/-2 (Ex) You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. This does not grant proficiency in armor. At 5th level, whenever you are wearing metal armor, you reduce the armor check penalt
Change Shape (Su) Assume a single human form.
Dance of the Blades +2 (20% miss chance) (Ex) +10 Speed while wielding a metal weapon. If you move at least 10', add +2 to hit for all metal weapons. As a move action, you can give non-incorporeal melee attacks and ranged attacks against you a 20% miss chance.
Dervish Dance Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier with scimitar
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Iron Skin (1/day) (Sp) Gain stoneskin, granting DR 10/adamantine.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

Hanako Ryar 2

Spoiler:

Kitsune oracle 11/swashbuckler 1 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 56; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42; Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide 192)
N Medium humanoid (kitsune, shapechanger)
Init +4; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 dexterity, +1 dodge)
hp 101 (1d10+11d8+36)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +9
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee longsword +15/+10 (1d8+4/17-20) or
bite +4 (1d4)
Special Attacks deed: opportune parry and riposte, panache
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th; concentration +16)
3/day—dancing lights
Oracle Spells Known (CL 11th; concentration +15)
5th (4/day)—mass cure light wounds, righteous might, telekinesis
4th (7/day)—cure critical wounds, wall of fire
3rd (7/day)—cure serious wounds, magic vestment
2nd (7/day)—cure moderate wounds, fog cloud, levitate, minor image (DC 16)
1st (7/day)—cure light wounds, enlarge person (DC 15)
0 (at will)—ghost sound (DC 14), mage hand
Mystery Battle
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +9; CMB +9; CMD 24
Feats Dodge, Extra Panache[ACG], Great Fortitude, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), Iron Will, Slashing Grace[ACG], Toughness, Weapon Focus (longsword)
Traits dangerously curious, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +4, Diplomacy +19, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Use Magic Device +19; Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, deed: derring-do
Languages Common, Sylvan
SQ change shape, deed: dodging panache, kitsune magic, mystery (battle), oracle's curse (haunted), revelation (battlecry, surprising charge, war sight, weapon mastery), swashbuckler finesse
Other Gear lamellar (leather) armor, longsword, 75 gp
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Special Abilities
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Battlecry +2 (3/day) (Ex) Allies in 100 ft gain +2 to hit, skills, and saves for 4 round(s).
Change Shape (Su) Assume a single human form.
Deed: Derring-Do (+4 extra dice) (Ex) Use 1 panache, +1d6 to Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim check. On a 6, roll another die.
Deed: Dodging Panache +4 (Ex) As an imm action when attacked, use 1 panache to move 5 ft. and gain +4 to AC vs. attack.
Deed: Opportune Parry and Riposte (Ex) 1 panache and 1 AoO to attempt to parry a melee attack, then counterattack.
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Panache (Ex) Gain a pool of points that are spent to fuel deeds, regained on light/piercing crit/killing blow.
Slashing Grace (Longsword) Treat chosen weapon as 1-handed piercing weapon and can had Dex instead of Str to dmg.
Surprising Charge (2/day) (Ex) Move your speed as an immediate action.
Swashbuckler Finesse At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having
War Sight (Su) Take your choice of 3 initiative rolls. Always act in the surprise round.

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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

I haven't added equipment, just assume it is identical for each character. I haven't added spells either; they will be virtually identical except for the build with the Swashbuckler dip won't get 6th level spells before retiring. I can't decide if the Panache and early access to dex to damage is worth the trade off considering I'm giving up Heal and Mass CMW.

Any thoughts?


Before anything else: why the change in Mystery? That's making it a bit harder to run a clean comparison, since you're changing so much more than just the Swashbuckler dip.


I'd say take the Inspired Blade archetype swashbuckler and take fencing grace instead of Slashing Grace. It'll save you a feat and get you more Panache. This does involve a swap from long sword to rapier.


kestral287 wrote:
Before anything else: why the change in Mystery? That's making it a bit harder to run a clean comparison, since you're changing so much more than just the Swashbuckler dip.

Mainly because the Swashbuckler's weapon proficiencies eliminated the need for a revelation to be proficient with martial weapons. Changing to Battle mystery frees up the feat I used for a Extra Revelations so I could get both Skill at Arms and Armour Mastery as soon as possible and, if I get martial WP's from the dip, Battle has more Revelations that I like than Metal.


My only concern is the fact that EVERYONE is going to be dipping Swashy (myself included for a build)!

They made it too good not to dip in so many circumstances. While not an attack on your build, just remember your going to look like everyone else in a few months. I saw this with magus and scimitars, and it made me despise Magus, since 90% of them are basically clones.

Otherwise, I agree with Greystone, inspired blade.


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:

My only concern is the fact that EVERYONE is going to be dipping Swashy (myself included for a build)!

They made it too good not to dip in so many circumstances. While not an attack on your build, just remember your going to look like everyone else in a few months. I saw this with magus and scimitars, and it made me despise Magus, since 90% of them are basically clones.

Otherwise, I agree with Greystone, inspired blade.

I'm not sure Inspired Blade gets me much since my Int is only 9. Hanako is pals with a Beastmorph Alchemist (husband's character) who is the brains of the operation and I've got all the skills I want covered. I guess I should have specified earlier that one of the ways I'm not exactly thrilled with the character is the meager damage output both versions seem to have. I'm hoping that all the good buff spells will help on that front. With that in mind though, is a switch from long sword to rapier a good idea? Isn't rapier even less DPR than a long sword in the PFS level range?

FWIW, I'm not terribly concerned about being just another swashy dip person.


Its only +1 panache, but also free weapon focus. Thats an entire feat in savings and gets you dex to damage 2 levels earlier (as early as 1st).


Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:
Its only +1 panache, but also free weapon focus. Thats an entire feat in savings and gets you dex to damage 2 levels earlier (as early as 1st).

Yep it's cha (1 min) + int (1 min) for panache.


Keep in mind that with inspired blade you trade:
1feat+1panache
Instead of:
Finesse for ALL piercing weapons but more importantly: you do NOT regain panache from a kill.

So you get a minimally larger pool and a feat but you lose sustain, only regaining on crits.


shroudb wrote:

Keep in mind that with inspired blade you trade:

1feat+1panache
Instead of:
Finesse for ALL piercing weapons but more importantly: you do NOT regain panache from a kill.

So you get a minimally larger pool and a feat but you lose sustain, only regaining on crits.

It depends how often you kill a creature yourself. As a dex based character, you'll go first a lot and unless you crit, are likely to injure instead of kill unless you crit (and regain panache). Also note that it's a move from a 19-20 crit weapon to a 18-20 one. I don't see losing kill panache a big lose. Now keen that rapier (a whole +1 ability) to move that crit to 15-20. For a one level dip, it's looking pretty good.

On finesse: How many one handed melee weapons you planning to use? Lets look at the feats he picked. Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), Slashing Grace[ACG], Weapon Focus (longsword). So 4 feats that are wasted if you pick up a weapon other than a longsword. Not seeing how the 'flexibility' would do him the least bit of good.

So on both your points, I find them unconvincing. Inspired blade seems almost totally a gain in ability/power unless you plan to fight one hit-kill mooks.


Where is Fencing Grace found? Those feats are all from the Weapon Mastery revelation and could easily be changed to rapier instead but Herolab doesn't think Fencing Grace is a feat.


born_of_fire wrote:
Where is Fencing Grace found? Those feats are all from the Weapon Mastery revelation and could easily be changed to rapier instead but Herolab doesn't think Fencing Grace is a feat.

When the ACG was released, it was pointed out that Slashing Grace doesn't work on Rapiers. Instead of fixing Slashing Grace, they announced that they would add a separate feat in a different book that does the same thing, but for Rapiers only.


I'd always rather dip daring champion than swashbuckler. But I do not like panache.


born_of_fire wrote:
Where is Fencing Grace found? Those feats are all from the Weapon Mastery revelation and could easily be changed to rapier instead but Herolab doesn't think Fencing Grace is a feat.

Advanced Class Origins.

Umbranus wrote:
I'd always rather dip daring champion than swashbuckler. But I do not like panache.

I'm not a fan either but Derring-Do is like Inspiration for Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim so I'm pretty much planning on using it to buff my skill monkeying. It's like an int+1 inspiration pool just for physical skills.

That and 1st level dex to hit and damage sold the dip for me.


graystone wrote:
born_of_fire wrote:
Where is Fencing Grace found? Those feats are all from the Weapon Mastery revelation and could easily be changed to rapier instead but Herolab doesn't think Fencing Grace is a feat.

Advanced Class Origins.

Umbranus wrote:
I'd always rather dip daring champion than swashbuckler. But I do not like panache.

I'm not a fan either but Derring-Do is like Inspiration for Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, or Swim so I'm pretty much planning on using it to buff my skill monkeying. It's like an int+1 inspiration pool just for physical skills.

That and 1st level dex to hit and damage sold the dip for me.

Good point.


graystone wrote:
shroudb wrote:

Keep in mind that with inspired blade you trade:

1feat+1panache
Instead of:
Finesse for ALL piercing weapons but more importantly: you do NOT regain panache from a kill.

So you get a minimally larger pool and a feat but you lose sustain, only regaining on crits.

It depends how often you kill a creature yourself. As a dex based character, you'll go first a lot and unless you crit, are likely to injure instead of kill unless you crit (and regain panache). Also note that it's a move from a 19-20 crit weapon to a 18-20 one. I don't see losing kill panache a big lose. Now keen that rapier (a whole +1 ability) to move that crit to 15-20. For a one level dip, it's looking pretty good.

On finesse: How many one handed melee weapons you planning to use? Lets look at the feats he picked. Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), Slashing Grace[ACG], Weapon Focus (longsword). So 4 feats that are wasted if you pick up a weapon other than a longsword. Not seeing how the 'flexibility' would do him the least bit of good.

So on both your points, I find them unconvincing. Inspired blade seems almost totally a gain in ability/power unless you plan to fight one hit-kill mooks.

Scimitar is also 18-20, it is exactly the same as rapier, save that it has a better damage type.

So it is always scimitar>rapier.
Also so far, with my own swash, more than half of my panache is from killing blows.
Also getting back 2 panache from a critical kill is sweet.

As for versatility, keeping a pair of daggers in a wrist sheasth has saved my bacon a few times.

As well as you can't conceal a rapier/scimitar so having things like switchblades and such is also good for someone who can easily pass inside a manor or a ballet or etc.

All the above basically are given for 1 feat. I think it's not as easy a decision


Just a side question: Swashbuckler finesse and inspired finesse both state that they apply for feat prerequisites. Do they only apply for weapons that are affected or if it generally?
In other words: Could one with either of those abilities and perform: Dance 3 take dervish dance?
I did a search but no result seemed to answer the question without fully reading all the threads.

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