So how does the whole Cestus / Longspear combination work?


Advice


Right, I understand that you can use the spear to threaten at 10ft and then hit people with the fist at 5ft, but does it allow you to threaten both 5ft and 10ft at the same time?

Like if someone is approaching my Cestus/Longspear wielding character, do I get to make an AoO once they enter my threatened range with the spear and then get to let go of the spear with one hand to make a second AoO as they approach to 5ft?

More importantly than the double AoO, could I let go of the spear with one hand to simply be carrying it instead of wielding it in order to have a hand free for use with Crane/Archon style or anything else that requires a free hand?


You cannot use the Cestus and the Longspear to make an AoO in the same round without an extra hand or some way to wield the Longspear one-handed. That's because changing grip on the Longspear is a free action and you can't normally do a free action outside of your turn (excluding talking, of course). Ditto the holding instead of wielding the Longspear, you have to pick before your turn is over and stick with it until your turn comes around again.


Frustrating, but I might be able to conjure up an extra hand. Depends if my GM would allow me to play as a Kasatha.

Still, good to know that otherwise I would have to pick. I've been working on a Crane/Archon MoMS build and wanted to stick in Combat Expertise and some ranged AoOs to force the monk to be the target of attacks.

I had just enough feats as a Human, but I am sure I can figure out something even if it means I would have to drop Crane Wing for a later point in time.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Monk is the surest way to manage threatening at reach and adjacent, thanks to Improved Unarmed Strike allowing kicks while your hands are full.


Rather than address this specific question, I'll go immediately to telling you that there are other ways to get somebody simultaeously threatening 5- and 10-foot increments simultaneously.

1. Synthesist Summoner with Reach evolutions.
2. Alchemist with Vestigial arms wielding a reach and non-reach weapon.
3. Bite or Gore natural attacks combined with a reach weapon. (Barbarians or any variety of skinwalkers).
4. Ranger/Druid/Cavalier/anything that can get anything they can ride wielding a reach weapon, while riding a creature with non-reach natural attacks.

Now if you still insist on the cestus-longspear, I don't think it works because releasing your grip from a weapon is a free action, not an immediate action.

I know it sounds stupid then, but realize that as far as total investment, this cestus-longspear combination requires no feats or similar resources (discoveries, rage powers, selection of ride ranks and companion, etc.), and threatening twice as many squares on a regular basis is a rather significant, as enemies have to be even more cautious around your character, especially if they have a high dexterity score alongside combat reflexes.

Lastly, the nature of a free action is that it takes minimal time to do, but realize that a round represents 6 seconds of time passing, and that initiative is a measure of where within those 6 seconds you are able to get in your actions. An immediate action is in response to an immediately arising threat, and and so represents you getting in even one more thing into your action economy at just the right moment.


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Use spiked armor and the longspear. You threaten at 10' and 5' then. Boulder helmet and some other non-hand weapons work too.


Wait, I am playing a MoMS...

So as a Monk I can threaten range and close without needing a free hand as long as I have a reach weapon? Interesting. That means I could also make multiple attacks of opportunity when they approach! That is so cool.

I have a lot to think about now.

I know there are other ways of achieving this goal, but I was really looking for a method that my monk could accomplish it and overlooked the Monk's ability to always unarmed strike.

The question was in regards to my Archon/Crane bodyguard character who needed a method of drawing aggro in addition to defending his nearby allies with Archon Distraction and Justice.

Of course, I also needed a method to keep him a free hand for his styles so...well this accomplished nothing other than telling me I need to be a Kasatha.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ShroudedInLight wrote:
That means I could also make multiple attacks of opportunity when they approach! That is so cool.

Not as cool as you hope. It has been clarified that movement only provokes once per movement, no matter how many threatened squares you leave.


Aww, darn. That sucks, you would think moving through more threatened squares would provoke more attacks. Still, guess that works for balance reasons.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think the big reason is that it wouldn't make sense to have moving 5ft provoke no attacks but have 10ft provoke two.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
That means I could also make multiple attacks of opportunity when they approach! That is so cool.
Not as cool as you hope. It has been clarified that movement only provokes once per movement, no matter how many threatened squares you leave.

Can I get a source on this?


Also keep in mind, you only provoke for moving out of a threatened square, not into one.

PRD wrote:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Grand Lodge

Westphalian_Musketeer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
ShroudedInLight wrote:
That means I could also make multiple attacks of opportunity when they approach! That is so cool.
Not as cool as you hope. It has been clarified that movement only provokes once per movement, no matter how many threatened squares you leave.
Can I get a source on this?

Core Rulebook p180

You have to look under the Combat reflex paragraph since that's the only standard way to make more than 1 AOO (at the time of its writing).

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.


This is a carry over from 3.5 and probably 3.0.

You could get multiple AoO's in a single round against a single target if you had Combat Reflexes as long as they provoked in different ways.

For example, you are standing next to a spell caster and they start the round by casting a spell without doing it on the defensive you get an AoO. They then take a move action to move away from you provoking a second AoO that you could take if you had Combat Reflexes.

JD


You can attack more than once for more than one opportunity (spellcasting, ranged attacks, etc.), movement just never counts as more than one opportunity. And everyone else is correct, you can get something that doesn't use a hand (armor spikes, boot blade, boulder helmet, etc.) and use a longspear to AoO both at long and close range. I think it violates the unwritten rules, but you should ignore most of those anyway.

And before you said Monk I was going to suggest Unexpected Strike. It requires Barbarian 8, but getting AoO on opponents moving into threatened squares is hilarious.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
Like if someone is approaching my Cestus/Longspear wielding character, do I get to make an AoO once they enter my threatened range with the spear and then get to let go of the spear with one hand to make a second AoO as they approach to 5ft?

I'm commenting on this because there is a misunderstanding.

You do not provoke an AoO for ENTERing a threatened space. You provoke an AoO for LEAVEing.

So, as they move up, they are 15' away, out of reach. They move to 10', now they are in a threatened square. No provoke yet. They continue moving to 5'. Now they have left the 10' square and provoked for your reach weapon. You get to hit them. They are now at 5'. If say, they then cast a spell, that would also provoke, and you could use your unarmed strike for it.


ShroudedInLight wrote:
Aww, darn. That sucks, you would think moving through more threatened squares would provoke more attacks. Still, guess that works for balance reasons.

Not the same but

Fortuitous

Price +1 bonus; Slot none; CL 8th; Weight —; Aura moderate transmutation
DESCRIPTION

This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons. A fortuitous weapon grants the wielder more attacks of opportunity. Once per round, when the wielder of a fortuitous weapon hits with an attack of opportunity, he can make a second attack of opportunity with this weapon against that foe at a –5 penalty.

Silver Crusade

As stated above, the easy, guaranteed way to threaten at both 5' and 10' is to wear spiked armor with your longspear. Cestus and longspear does not work. When a character threatens at 5' they threaten 8 squares. When a character threatens at 10' they threaten 12 squares. Threatening both gets 20 threatened squares.

That said, why do you care? I've played reach fighters who DID threaten at both 5' and 10', and I've played reach fighters who only threaten at 10'. This because of roleplaying, in that spiked armor is clunky and impractical to wear in daily use, even if there are no mechanical penalties.

After much testing and play, I've found there's very little need to also threaten at 5'. Like, it's a corner case that comes up less than 5% of the time. When it does, it's generally a very minor tactical issue. You're PC will probably never use the armor spikes to actually attack. Its main use is to allow allies to gain flank bonuses against foes adjacent to you.

This link contains a hilarious 3 minute video about Attacks of Opportunity rules that my players enjoyed, as well as an example of effective reach tactics.

Scarab Sages

Use a trident two-handed on your turn. Let go with one hand at the end of each turn.


Tridents are not reach weapons.

Silver Crusade

Artanthos wrote:
Use a trident two-handed on your turn. Let go with one hand at the end of each turn.

A trident is not a reach weapon. If it were then ceasing to threaten with it at the end of your turn would completely defeat the purpose of using a reach weapon in the first place.


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Use a trident two-handed on your turn. Let go with one hand at the end of each turn.
A trident is not a reach weapon. If it were then ceasing to threaten with it at the end of your turn would completely defeat the purpose of using a reach weapon in the first place.

Tridents are one handed though, so you would still threaten with it while using it with only one hand, just only get 1x str to damage instead of 1.5x.


Fighter's Fork, threaten whatever you like.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Fighter's Fork, threaten whatever you like.

Its a swift action to change, meaning you're stuck with one or the other a turn.

Grand Lodge

Magda, the main reasons I find for wanting to threaten 5' and 10' are:
- preventing casters from 5' stepping for a free cast.
- crowded areas or multiple foes where repeatedly backpedaling isn't a great option.
- letting your reach-less mount attack or your reach mount use Grab.
- opening Vicious Stomp, Bodyguard, and similar feats that want you to be adjacent to a foe.

Silver Crusade

Those are all good reasons. My PCs have dealt with all those situations. They do come up sometimes. Easiest solution is to wear spiked armor, which completely solves the issue. My PCs generally opted for an approach that minimizes the need to threaten at 5', but that's only because I don't like the roleplaying fluff around spiked armor.

I asked 'why do you care?' because I've seen a lot of players blow this issue out of proportion. As in, "I can't use a reach weapon, because then I can't threaten adjacent!"


Improved unarmed strike

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