Braxon |
Hello all,
(sorry so long)
Quick Background: I played DnD 2nd Edition years and years ago. I bought Pathfinder books years ago. I am now starting to play with my young family. Dad, Mom, 2nd, and 3rd grader. We "used to play" every 6 months or so but this last time the kids did MUCH better.
My Master Plan:
Go back to Blackfang Adventure in Beginner Box w/PreGen characters, play a room, discuss, play a room, discuss. They have done the entire adventure before but not the discussion part. The focus is on learning the game mechanics and making things run smoother/faster. Room 1 and 2 took a total of 1 hour. =)
After redoing Blackfang Adventure and things get quicker (maybe with some different challenges/mobs) move on.
Create New Group (need help with roles here)
Restart Godsmouth Heresy
then
Mask of the Living God
then
City of Golden Death
Create New Group
The Dragon's Demand
Create New Group
bum, bum, buuuuuuum
Serpent's Skull AP! (WOOT, can't wait for this MegaStory!)
The kids are starting to get Perception checks, Detect Magic Orisons, and yes even starting a fight with their weapons drawn. =) I need some advice in helping them make basic characters that have important roles and skills. (If there is some pregen character database that someone could point me too that would rock. It would at least be a great place to start.)
Roles for a Basic Effective Party:
tank
healer
trap guy
magic guy
?
?
(With only 3 players I am 1 short. I prefer not to play a party NPC and I made the mistake of working though a gestalt character creation with my wife one (long) Saturday. For now we need faster action, less strategy and that was my bad. I may have my wife run two characters.)
Skills for a Basic Effective Party:
Survival
Knowledge: History/Religion/Arcane
Appraisal
?
?
?
As the kids mostly like to battle I see more combat skills being of value. Advanced mechanics are no good, things need to be kept simple (for both them AND me). =)
Thoughts?
Braxon
Reynard_the_fox |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... I wouldn't worry about balance too much, as it's usually easy enough to cover whatever skills you need with proper tinkering. What seems to be key here is minimizing complexity - you want your family to be focused on learning the system as a whole, not puzzling over how stuff like Spell Combat works.
To that end, I would suggest using the following classes if possible, as they tend towards lower complexity.
Martials:
-Fighter
-Barbarian
-Paladin
-Ranger (if starting below level 4)
Skill Monkeys:
-Rogue
-Bard
-Inquisitor
Magic Users:
-Sorcerer
-Cleric
In my experience, these are the easiest classes to simply pick up and play. None of them require tracking spells known, like Wizard, Witch, or Alchemist; none of them rely heavily on an animal companion or other cohort, like Druid, Hunter, or Summoner; and none require system mastery like Brawler or Magus.
Good luck! We'll be able to help you better once you talk to your family and get a sense of what they want to play.
Insain Dragoon |
-Beef
Ranger
Barbarian
Paladin
Bloodrager
-traps+extra
Slayer (deals with traps, is beefy,simple, lots of skills)
Urban Ranger (same as Slayer, but has spells)
-arcane
Wizard (a bit complicated, but can do well with coaching)
Bard (goes well with suggested beef and trap breakers)
Skald (same as Bard)
Sorceror (less complicated than Wizard)
-divine
Cleric (versatile)
Oracle (can be simpler, but is less versatile)
Druid (versatile and complicated)
A party of Paladin, Slayer, Bard, and Cleric would do very well. The Bard and Cleric would provide strong support buffs for the two frontliners and, depending on the build, be able to partake in the melee too. Outside of combat all the important skills would be covered.
Pupsocket |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hello all,
Roles for a Basic Effective Party:
tank
healer
trap guy
magic guy
?
?
(With only 3 players I am 1 short. I prefer not to play a party NPC and I made the mistake of working though a gestalt character creation with my wife one (long) Saturday. For now we need faster action, less strategy and that was my bad. I may have my wife run two characters.)
So, I completely disagree with those roles. There are good works written on the topic, I recommend seeking out "The Forge of Combat" for one well-explained paradigm.
I prefer the paradigm of tasks instead.
Damage - reducing the enemy's ability to take effective actions through doing HP damage to take them out of the fight entirely.
Control - reducing the enemy's ability to take effective actions through affecting positioning, mobility (or countering the enemy's mobility advantage), or debilitating conditions.
Buffing - increasing party defense and offense.
Healing - This means condition removal, getting people back in the fight, healing ability damage between fights etc. The ability to heal HP damage is incidental to this.
Knowledge (in order of importance)- Arcane, Religion and Planes, then Spellcraft, then other Knowledges.
Perception
Interaction.
'Sani |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While having a dedicated healer can be nice in occasional situations, the roll of healer can often be filled by an offensive spell focused divine caster with a cure wand.
As for 'trap guy' many parties have found that having a martial with high enough defenses/health works just as well for 'disarming' traps. Give them a decent strength and a crowbar and they work for 'picking locks' as well!
Magic guy... you could theoretically have an entire party of 'magic guys' with each filling different rolls utilizing archetypes. Magic guy front line fighters, magic guy ranged damage dealers, magic guy crowd controllers, magic guy party buffers, magic guy heavy artillery, etc. There are a lot of different ways to do 'magic guy', maybe take a bit to think about eactly what you want from your 'magic guy'.
Fruian Thistlefoot |
You should read the guide forge of combat.
There are 3 roles. Hammer (dps), arm (buffer..the guy who keeps the hammer swinging), and the anvil (the guy who controls the battlefield)
Optimum group is 2 hammers, 1 arm, 1 anvil.
Take the classic group:
Fighter (hammer)
Rogue (hammer)
Cleric (arm)
Wizard (anvil)
If a class can cover a role and dip into another role then bonus. A summoner can be a anvil/hammer easily.
One of my favorite group combos to date is:
Arcane Bloodrager (hammer)
Archer paladin (Hammer/arm)
Evangelist Cleric focused on summoning (Arm/anvil)
Master summoner (anvil/ hammer)
Both Cleric and summoner crap out summons at standard action...give the Bloodrager flank buddies and alternative targets for Bad guys to focus. The archer paladin sits in back and shoots stuff. The paladin uses lay on hands between fights to heal any lost highpoint. They summoner eidolon is set up to be the scout and skill monkey. You also have 2 faces...a paladin and a summoner.
Claxon |
As a note, survival, knowledge history, and appraise are probably 3 of the most useless skills in the game. Not that they don't have their place, but unless you are really going to make a big deal about needing to find food and making them make a lot of rolls to not get lost survival is almost completely an RP purpose skill. Appraise--hell most people don't even know how to use this skill properly. I sure as heck don't. It's much easier to just let everyone sell everything at half price and not force anyone into taking this skill which doesn't have much of a point. Knowledge (history) can come up in game. It can help to have a more complete picture of what is going on in the game world, which is nice. But, it doesn't identify any creatures or their strengths and weaknesses. Because of this it is immeadiately behind every other knowledge skill that does identify some sort of monster.
As far as roles in the party...you have a bad idea of what the roles are. There is no "tank" firstly, because there are only a very few limited mechanics to force a creature into attacking a specific person. Even then it doesn't work so well. This isn't an MMO, there is no threat, and intelligent enemies are going to target the weakest characters first (if any are obvious) because it's a smart tactic.
As others mentioned the more traditional roles are damage, healing (more status healing than pure hp healing, hp healing is incidental and actual hp healing should be done outside of combat unless it is to keep an ally conscious or from dying) & buffing, and battlefield control. This is essentially your fighter, cleric, wizard portion of the party. People like to throw in the "skilled" class as part of the party, however I think it has always been b$!*@++@. If you have a wizard they are also going to have the most or 2nd to most skill points in the party by virtue of their large int, which enables them to cover many of the required skills. If you substitute out the fighter for something that can keep up in terms of damage but just has a few more skill points per level you can (there are plenty of martial classes with 4+int skill points per level) you can round out the party's needed skills between a barbarian, wizard, and cleric. A skill focused class isn't really necessary. At level one those 3 (without a 4th member) should have probably about 13 skills ranks between them. There are a total of 35 skills, but many skills can be ignored altogether unless your build requires them for some reason. Out of those skills, there are only really 10 that I would consider absolutely essential for every party to have:
Bluff
Diplomacy
Know(arcana)
Know(dungeoneering)
Know(local)
Know(nature)
Know(plane)
Know(religion)
Perception
Spellcraft
Other skills are entirely dependent on class builds and the specific campaign. So the idea that there is a requirement to have a "skilled" class is entirely false in my opinion. It's nice to be able to double up on some skills sometimes, but that doesn't mean someone needs to be stuck playing a rogue because thats the "skilled" class. Besides which there are several other classes which do skills substantially better.
Braxon |
Consider asking their character concept first and chosee the class after that, it does not matter that much if they do not cover all roles (because you can patch it later).
Nicos, I understand the concept but I don't understand how that works in practice. If you have a fighter, rogue, and wizard how does anyone get healed? Starting players don't have money for good gear let alone healing potions.
Orfamay Quest |
Nicos wrote:Consider asking their character concept first and chosee the class after that, it does not matter that much if they do not cover all roles (because you can patch it later).Nicos, I understand the concept but I don't understand how that works in practice. If you have a fighter, rogue, and wizard how does anyone get healed? Starting players don't have money for good gear let alone healing potions.
Neither fighter, nor rogue, nor wizard are a concept.
The concept that is the fighter might equally be a paladin, or the wizard might be a witch. Or, for that matter, the fighter might be a cleric.
If the relevant concepts are:
* A guy who shoots crossbows just like William Tell!
* Like, this really awesome acrobatic ninja cat-burglar dude
* A pyro with lots of fire spells
I can think of three ways to build ANY of them. Including but not limited to as a fighter, rogue, and wizard respectively.
Braxon |
You need a face character for social interaction.
Emmanuel, I didn't think about that. Back when I was younger I never had a reason to talk to anyone in a dungeon, just try and kill them. Adventure outside of a dungeon, no just sell and find another dungeon. =) I have looked for simple dungeon crawls (Dungeon Classic) for Pathfinder but I have not come up with much. It would probably be wise to have someone that could talk to others.
Great tip!
Thanks,
Braxon
Braxon |
I would pity the player whose role is 'trap guy'. That role consists entirely of -one- skill and possibly a class feature. It's a sub-role. Several classes are capable of covering it.
Ciaran, hmm I didn't really know anyone was capable of filling the role of taking out the traps other than a rogue. That probably goes to show you how "out of touch" with current Pathfinder I am.
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm... I wouldn't worry about balance too much, as it's usually easy enough to cover whatever skills you need with proper tinkering. What seems to be key here is minimizing complexity - you want your family to be focused on learning the system as a whole, not puzzling over how stuff like Spell Combat works.
You said it better than I did. I want to minimize complexity as much as possible as that will maximize my family's fun.
To that end, I would suggest using the following classes if possible, as they tend towards lower complexity.
Martials:
-Fighter
-Barbarian
-Paladin
-Ranger (if starting below level 4)
I may have the wrong impression, but can all three of them stand on the front line equally well? My impression is that the Ranger cannot take punishment as well as the other classes.
Skill Monkeys:
-Rogue
-Bard
-Inquisitor
So I looked into Inquisitor and didn't find that they have Disable Traps. I looked a bit further and found that only Rogues and Alchemists have that skill. I understand that Skill Monkeys are more than just Disable Traps but does that mean every team that doesn't have either class just uses cleric heals and crowbars. I must be missing something.
Great advice thanks for the insight!
Regards,
Braxon
Insain Dragoon |
Ciaran Barnes wrote:I would pity the player whose role is 'trap guy'. That role consists entirely of -one- skill and possibly a class feature. It's a sub-role. Several classes are capable of covering it.Ciaran, hmm I didn't really know anyone was capable of filling the role of taking out the traps other than a rogue. That probably goes to show you how "out of touch" with current Pathfinder I am.
Regards,
Braxon
Investigator
Trap Breaker AlchemistArcheologist Bard
Seeker Sorceror
Seeker Oracle
Crypt Alchemist
Urban Ranger
Slayer
Off the top of my head those are what I know. Of all of those the Slayer is identical in terms of role and playstyle to a rogue. The Slayer is also pretty simple.
As for the ability to stand on a front line and not die, the best classes for that are Paladin, Barbarian (Base or invulnerable Rager), BloodRager (Base or Spell eater), and Mutagenic Mauler Brawler.
For simplicity I suggest Paladin.
Nicos |
Nicos wrote:Consider asking their character concept first and chosee the class after that, it does not matter that much if they do not cover all roles (because you can patch it later).Nicos, I understand the concept but I don't understand how that works in practice. If you have a fighter, rogue, and wizard how does anyone get healed? Starting players don't have money for good gear let alone healing potions.
It is hard with a figther and a rogue, since they are more limited. At higher level there are a couple of tricks, like wands, spellstoring armor (vampiric touch), the rogue and the wizard can have familiars wielding wands/scrolls, and a couple otehr I'm missing at the moment.
For a group like that what I would recommend is to not get hit, of course is easy to say hard to do, but consider everyone maxing stealth and perception. As a group I think they could try scouting and avoiding as many fight as they can, striking as hard and fast as they can when neccesary. Of course, it is not a foolproof plan, but it is workeable.
I prefer a group liek that than a cleric, rogue and wizard if the cleric player get bored for playing a class he do not want.
EDIT: There is also the goodless healing feat. it is not useful at higher levels but you can retrain it.
Braxon |
-Beef
Ranger
Barbarian
Paladin
Bloodrager
A Barbarian Sorcerer? Wow. That sounds interesting (and dangerous to others), I will have to read up on them.
-traps+extra
Slayer (deals with traps, is beefy,simple, lots of skills)
Urban Ranger (same as Slayer, but has spells)
I found the Slayer class and had to hunt for the Urban Ranger. Archetypes, looks like they were added in Ultimate Combat (I don't have). Man this is a deep game.
A party of Paladin, Slayer, Bard, and Cleric would do very well. The Bard and Cleric would provide strong support buffs for the two frontliners and, depending on the build, be able to partake in the melee too. Outside of combat all the important skills would be covered.
I like the concept of a healing fighter (Pally). I will have to look into Slayer. I was never interested in the Bard class in DnD 2nd Ed, but I will have to spend a bit of time looking into the class. Cleric seems nice and easy.
Great advice, I will have to dig deeper in those classes.
Thanks,
Braxon
Nicos |
I may have the wrong impression, but can all three of them stand on the front line equally well? My impression is that the Ranger cannot take punishment as well as the other classes.
THe ranger is pretty solid class. If you want him to be a tank then take the shield and sword combat style, they can take the shield master at level 6 and that make a HUGE difference.
EDIT: Also, for the trap thing. not ehtat EVERYONE can find traps with amere perception check. DIsabling magical traps is anohter stuff, fortunately there are arcehtypes for that and more importantly
Trap Finder trait
Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.
Insain Dragoon |
Nicos try to avoid complicated stuff, did you see the OP post?
Have the players build with a 20 or 25 point buy and make the Cleric a Battle Cleric (have the Cleric have a high strength, full plate, and domains for combat). That way the Cleric player will still have strong casting and be able to have fun hitting things. If you have any questions later about how to build a fun combat Cleric post here or PM me :).
Braxon |
Neither fighter, nor rogue, nor wizard are a concept.
The concept that is the fighter might equally be a paladin, or the wizard might be a witch. Or, for that matter, the fighter might be a cleric.
If the relevant concepts are:* A guy who shoots crossbows just like William Tell!
* Like, this really awesome acrobatic ninja cat-burglar dude
* A pyro with lots of fire spellsI can think of three ways to build ANY of them. Including but not limited to as a fighter, rogue, and wizard respectively.
AhHA. I understand what you mean now. Sometimes I am a bit too utilitarian. Often I think about what role do I need to fill and then go find a class that fits that role. Perhaps I should go backwards (to my normal way of thinking) and ask for "who" they want play and then go looking for a class that can be that "who".
Thank you so much for the clarification, I now understand.
Regards,
Braxon
Insain Dragoon |
The Bard of 2.0 and PF are pretty different. Now Bards can function as secondary melee combatants, archers, skilled talkers, knowledge banks, and team buffing.
They are not the best at each of their combat roles, but they are amazing for Knowledge skills, face skills, and team buffing. If you want the Bard to be better at combat take the Arcane Duelist archetype.
Best of all Bards are pretty simple to play!
Nicos |
Nicos try to avoid complicated stuff, did you see the OP post?
Well, my bad. Still, I think that if the OP ask first the players what they want to play then here in the forum we can give him the specific advices about the characters so he has not to read pages upon pages of rules.
Reynard_the_fox |
Reynard_the_fox wrote:I may have the wrong impression, but can all three of them stand on the front line equally well? My impression is that the Ranger cannot take punishment as well as the other classes.To that end, I would suggest using the following classes if possible, as they tend towards lower complexity.
Martials:
-Fighter
-Barbarian
-Paladin
-Ranger (if starting below level 4)
Barbarian and Paladin both get significant boosts to their hit points, Barbarian from a d12 hit die and Rage and Paladins from Lay on Hands; but the only difference defensively between Ranger and Fighter is that Fighters have access to heavy armor. Give them Breastplate and a healthy Con score and a Ranger will be pretty sturdy. Oh, and Rangers do get a little bit of healing magic, too, meaning they can wield a Wand of Cure Light Wounds just as well as a Cleric.
Rangers aren't quite as good at hitting things (with the exception of their Favored Enemy), but they get lots of skills, which is very nice; and at 4th, they get an animal companion AND limited spellcasting. They're great for people who want to do a little bit of everything. Of course, that means they're slightly more complex to play, but it should be fine as long as it's not a brand new player trying to jump straight to a 4+ level Ranger.
Reynard_the_fox wrote:So I looked into Inquisitor and didn't find that they have Disable Traps. I looked a bit further and found that only Rogues and Alchemists have that skill. I understand that Skill Monkeys are more than just Disable Traps but does that mean every team that doesn't have either class just uses cleric heals and crowbars. I must be missing something.Skill Monkeys:
-Rogue
-Bard
-Inquisitor
Remember, anyone with Perception and Disable Device can deactivate nonmagical traps. It's only magical traps that need a class ability, and by the time you start encountering them en masse your players should have access to Dispel Magic.
Are you playing with traits? Typically, each character gets to pick two traits that represent skills they gained growing up. They're usually a +1 to a save, +1 to a skill (and make it a class skill), or a similar small boon. So even though Paladins don't usually get Disable Device as a class skill, if that particular Paladin happened to be a Vagabond Child or have Nimble Fingers, Keen Mind, (s)he can be quite good at picking locks or disabling traps. There's a trait for just about every skill, which is one of the reasons I don't usually worry about skills when people are picking classes.
Braxon |
Investigator
Trap Breaker Alchemist
Archeologist Bard
Seeker Sorceror
Seeker Oracle
Crypt Alchemist
Urban Ranger
SlayerOff the top of my head those are what I know. Of all of those the Slayer is identical in terms of role and playstyle to a rogue. The Slayer is also pretty simple.
Again, Pathfinder is quite deep. I went here and looked at Disable Device and only saw 2 classes. Those are a lot more than just two classes. =)
As for the ability to stand on a front line and not die, the best classes for that are Paladin, Barbarian (Base or invulnerable Rager), BloodRager (Base or Spell eater), and Mutagenic Mauler Brawler.
For simplicity I suggest Paladin.
The Beef is looking to be either Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian. I will have to ask my wife as I think she wants to be on the front line.
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon |
EDIT: Also, for the trap thing. not ehtat EVERYONE can find traps with amere perception check. DIsabling magical traps is anohter stuff, fortunately there are arcehtypes for that and more importantly
No really, I did not know that (everyone can find a trap)!
/smacks head/bog
Trap Finder trait
Benefit(s): You gain a +1 trait bonus on Disable Device checks, and that skill is always a class skill for you. In addition, you can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps, like a rogue.
Oh ... My ... Gosh!
Wow, that makes things much simpler! That ONE tidbit would make this post worth the time I spent (and there are other many good ideas to boot).
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon |
Nicos try to avoid complicated stuff, did you see the OP post?
What does OP mean?
Have the players build with a 20 or 25 point buy and make the Cleric a Battle Cleric (have the Cleric have a high strength, full plate, and domains for combat). That way the Cleric player will still have strong casting and be able to have fun hitting things. If you have any questions later about how to build a fun combat Cleric post here or PM me :).
I think a 25 point buy is a great idea.
My daughter loves healing her brother and mom so that needs to be strong for her Cleric. If I could find a way for her to be able to keep doing that (maybe Pally for our Beef) and let her smack things around with a big ball and chain that would be great. Once I get more of their input, I may just have to compare and contrast a Battle Cleric vs. an Uber Healing Cleric. I really don't know how far apart they would both be from each other in the real of battle and healing.
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon |
So, I completely disagree with those roles. There are good works written on the topic, I recommend seeking out "The Forge of Combat" for one well-explained paradigm.
I will look for The Forge of Combat. That sounds like a GREAT read. Even if it is great, I will probably be the only one reading it (of the family) and then trying to teach it to them. Simple is very good right now.
I prefer the paradigm of tasks instead.
Damage -
Control -
Buffing -
Healing -
I don't see Control as possible right now. They have not got flanking, 5' step, or threat range down yet. Without Control I see that healing HP won't be between fights but during fights so they don't die. If I was playing with others with my same level of interest (reading the books for one) I see where that could be optimal.
Knowledge (in order of importance)- Arcane, Religion and Planes, then Spellcraft, then other Knowledges.
Perception
Interaction.
Thanks for the order of Knowledge importance.
Perception is used so many times it just seems crucial to have a party member that excels at it.What is Interaction exactly?
Regards,
Braxon
Braxon |
While having a dedicated healer can be nice in occasional situations, the roll of healer can often be filled by an offensive spell focused divine caster with a cure wand.
One of the problems of me coming from a very "magic is scarce" DnD 2nd Edition world is that I would never think to be able to replace a healing role with a cure wand. To be honest I have no idea (neither does my family) how Pathfinder really plays over level 5 or so. I am sure we will learn as we go, but some of these strategies are just foreign to me.
As for 'trap guy' many parties have found that having a martial with high enough defenses/health works just as well for 'disarming' traps. Give them a decent strength and a crowbar and they work for 'picking locks' as well!
haHA, that sounds fun to roleplay! Again, I didn't even think about this option.
Thanks!
Braxon
Braxon |
You should read the guide forge of combat.
There are 3 roles. Hammer (dps), arm (buffer..the guy who keeps the hammer swinging), and the anvil (the guy who controls the battlefield)
Optimum group is 2 hammers, 1 arm, 1 anvil.
Take the classic group:
Fighter (hammer)
Rogue (hammer)
Cleric (arm)
Wizard (anvil)
GREAT stuff!
If a class can cover a role and dip into another role then bonus.
That sounds very interesting and optimal.
One of my favorite group combos to date is:
Arcane Bloodrager (hammer)
Archer paladin (Hammer/arm)
Evangelist Cleric focused on summoning (Arm/anvil)
Master summoner (anvil/ hammer)Both Cleric and summoner crap out summons at standard action...give the Bloodrager flank buddies and alternative targets for Bad guys to focus. The archer paladin sits in back and shoots stuff. The paladin uses lay on hands between fights to heal any lost highpoint. They summoner eidolon is set up to be the scout and skill monkey. You also have 2 faces...a paladin and a summoner.
Very nice group. I never thought of an Archer Paladin. I will have to look into that. The Summoner sounds like a very interesting class. A bit too complicated right now, but I am sure we will look into it at a later date.
Thanks,
Braxon
Braxon |
Braxon, you can find the Forge of Combat here. I wouldn't worry about being the only one to read it. I don't have much experience with second and third graders, but I suspect the concepts will be fairly easy to explain if you feel the need.
Before I know it, they will probably be 7th and 8th graders and be explaining it to me. =)
Thank You,
Braxon
Insain Dragoon |
Some fairly simple classes for each role
-Hammer
Paladin
Barbarian
Bloodrager
Slayer
Ranger
Inquisitor
-Arm
Paladin
Cleric
Bard
Oracle
Witch
Inquisitor
-Anvil
Arcanist
Wizard
Sorceror
Witch
Cleric
Oracle
Bard
Using archetypes it's possible to have some classes take on multiple roles too.
Slayers and Rangers can pull off very impressive damage. If you want them to be sturdy they can pick the Weapon and Shield combat style which makes them VERY sturdy and able to do surprising damage. They also have a lot of out of combat versatility.
Inquisitors wont do as much consistent damage, but are really capable of laying on the hurt in the important fights using their X uses per day abilities. In addition they have a great spell list and strong skill selection. With the Animal Domain-Feather subdomain they also do amazing at perception.
Oracles are a "make your own class" that's so fun to play. I suggest Life, Lore, Nature, Lunar, waves, and stone mysteries.
Arcanist will be easier for a young player to understand than a Wizard and more forgiving than a Sorceror.
Atarlost |
As helpful as the forge model is, it's the noncombat roles that will cause real issues if left unfilled. If you go without combat roles you'll be bad at combat but that's pretty simple to compensate for: run with a larger or higher level party than the module is written for. If you're missing a noncombat role, maybe a role or part of a role won't be important in the adventure, but if it is you can have problems that aren't as simple to GM around.
The key noncombat roles are
Face
Healer
Trapspringer
Sage
and the optional roles are
Scout
Teleporter
Most of these roles are not atomic. It may be clumsy, but you can, for example, split face into the talker (diplomacy/bluff) and the listener (sense motive).
The Face role handles interaction. In descending order of importance they are diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and intimidate.
The Healer fixes things. His job is to be able to pull out neutralize poison, every spell with remove or restore in the name, and use a wand of cure light wounds or infernal healing without chance of failure. Spells with caster level checks (eg. remove disease) need to be known not on wands or scrolls. That makes it pretty much a job for a cleric.
Trapspringer finds and disables or safely triggers traps. Perception is important and either disable device or enough durability to laugh at trap damage. Instakill traps have gone out of style, but if you tank every trap you'll trigger every alarm. (though alarm is not a trap so RAW so will the most skilled trap disabler)
Sage knows the stuff you need to know to interpret clues. You can metagame monster knowledge if no one has the skill points for it, but it's a lot harder to metagame clues. Religion, Arcana, Local, Engineering, History, Nobility, and Geography are most likely to be plot critical. Professions can also be plot critical skills. In Skull and Shackles it's Sailor and
Scout lets you know what to prepare for. He can either use divination magic or stealth. Perception and special vision types are important and bluff is handy. Mobility is also handy. Unfortunately unless done via divination this involves splitting the party unless everyone is sneaky.
The teleporter handles long distance travel. This can't be done at low level and its later availability is one of the more common complaints about high level play so it's often for the best if this role goes unfilled.
Noteleks |
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I first would like to say how refreshing it is to see a family spending time together. I personally think it is wonderful that you all role play together. It builds creativity, helps hone math skills, reading, and other skills they will use in life.
Now to answer your question. I would advise you keep it to as few books as possible. The nice thing that Pathfinder did is they put almost everything you really need right in their core book.
Follow the "KISS" method, keep it simple stupid. I found that kids, like you said like the battles, but also like to roll dice. So keep the battles moving quick so the children don't get bored while waiting for their turn. Its the GM's job to keep everyone involved and interested.
As for basic party make up that really shouldn't matter, let the kids play whatever character they want as long as they can do it from the CORE BOOK. I have played in a group where all 5 people playing were rogues, the nice thing with Pathfinder is it allows for variety. Each rogue basically filled a niche, one was strength based and was the front line guy, another was a dex based fighter type and used finesse over strength, another used daggers, and we all carried wands of cure light so we could all use the skill "use magic device" to use them to heal.
It is the GM's job to make it work. But by the sounds of it you are kind of new to Pathfinder too so I would advise the following party composition:
Fighter (Includes: Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, or Monk)
Cleric
Rogue (Includes: Bard but I advise to stay away from this class as a beginner)
Three very straight forward simple classes. The cleric fills the healing need and would be the 2nd best fighter in the group, the rogue fills the trap finding need, and of course the fighter fills the meat shield need. We currently playing in 3 party group and this basically covers most of the needed situations that arise.
Now as the children gain more experience and want to expand their abilities, you could allow them to multi-class so the rogue could eventually become a rogue 5th level/ wizard 3rd level for example. This would open up the children to another class and allow them to learn more of the game.
As for skills which play a very important part the above class make up covers all the knowledge skills except geography and nature. But any class can take any skill they just may not be as proficient with it.
So from my experience the following knowledge skills are most common:
Knowledge- History
Knowledge- Arcane
Knowledge- Local
Knowledge- religion
The nice thing about being a GM is you can adjust to your group, you can usually switch some of the knowledge skills for another so instead of religion if they don't have it try knowledge planes. Or for history try switching it out for knowledge local the key is "KEEP THE GAME interesting" so do what needs to be done to keep the action going.
Other common skills are(no specific order)
Perception
Linguistics (Just a fun one not always taken)
survival
disable device
heal
appraise
acrobatics (Nice one to have as a rogue)
Spellcraft (Goes with knowledge arcana and detect magic)
Stealth
Diplomacy or Intimidate
Bluff (Nice for rogue again) works with faint feat
The main thing to remember is to have fun and as the GM your allowed to fudge rules to keep game interesting and fun.
Good luck to you and your family and hope this helps.
Oh one last thing to remember since their are only 3 people in this adventuring group. Remind them to be patient, they can always run away from a fight but should never rush into one. Also remind them about team work for that goes a long way in helping group to survive at times.
Orfamay Quest |
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Pupsocket wrote:I prefer the paradigm of tasks instead.
Damage -
Control -
Buffing -
Healing -I don't see Control as possible right now. They have not got flanking, 5' step, or threat range down yet.
Can they do Trip? A tripping hammer build -- which of course is really an anvil -- armed with a reach weapon is an easy and accessible control build.