Steal Manuver VS Headbands


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

This is a relatively straightforward question.

The steal maneuver:
Items that are simply tucked into a belt or loosely attached (such as brooches or necklaces) are the easiest to take. Items fastened to a foe (such as cloaks, sheathed weapons, or pouches) are more difficult to take, and give the opponent a +5 bonus (or greater) to his CMD. Items that are closely worn (such as armor, backpacks, boots, clothing, or rings) cannot be taken with this maneuver. Items held in the hands (such as wielded weapons or wands) also cannot be taken with the steal maneuver—you must use the disarm combat maneuver instead.

So which category are headbands;
A) loosely attached (it's pretty easy to take someones ball cap)

B) Fastened to a foe (this is my magic hat that magically fits perfectly to my imperfect head)

C) Closely Worn (I would think this is more like a helmet with a chinstrap or motorcyle helmet)


I'd go with A loosely attached. If its that easy to get someones necklace off, its just as easy to take their headband. Again, barring something in the description that it has a strap or something.


A is probably correct in general, although I know in the case of one of my characters the headband is also underneath a helm, so in that situation the headband would be pretty hard to steal without removing the helm first.

As far as the necklace being easy to take, I would say that the implication there is that you're ripping the necklace off and breaking the clasp, not necessarily pulling the chain over the person's head.


Ah, I guess I was thinking magical necklaces and since magic makes everything hard to break...

Probably B then.


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If the are wearing a helm, I would say it's impossible. At least not without removing the helm first.

Beyond that, I guess I would consider it loosely attached.

Grand Lodge

Gonna go against the Norm and say C

If a helmet, ie. an item worn is the same general place bigger and more grab points, is not grab able, how is a headband any easier?

Remember, headband is not sitting on top of the head like a crown. It is strapped to your head.


Helmets are not specifically listed. They might be considered a part of armor, but certainly are not all inclusive of taking the entirety of someones armor off. I'd still go with B and C if they happen to be wearing armor which includes a helmet. Which, I think is only full-plate that states it comes with a helmet.


Tarantula wrote:
Helmets are not specifically listed. They might be considered a part of armor, but certainly are not all inclusive of taking the entirety of someones armor off. I'd still go with B and C if they happen to be wearing armor which includes a helmet. Which, I think is only full-plate that states it comes with a helmet.

Only full plate states it (IIRC), but anyone could buy a helmet to go with their armor that otherwise has no mechanical effect.


Claxon wrote:
Tarantula wrote:
Helmets are not specifically listed. They might be considered a part of armor, but certainly are not all inclusive of taking the entirety of someones armor off. I'd still go with B and C if they happen to be wearing armor which includes a helmet. Which, I think is only full-plate that states it comes with a helmet.
Only full plate states it (IIRC), but anyone could buy a helmet to go with their armor that otherwise has no mechanical effect.

I am in total agreement. Well, other than they might have helmet hair when they stop in at the tavern.


Headbands are tied on. Pouches are tied on, and cloaks are also tied on.

B is probably the general answer, although if they're not wearing a helmet it may fall into A.


What does Steal WORK for?


The Dead Man's Headband references the steal maneuver:

Quote:
In addition, if this headband is attached to the outside of a hat, the wearer’s hat or headgear cannot be blown off or removed by wind, water, or environmental effects, and the wearer gains a +5 circumstance bonus to his CMD against steal and sunder attempts targeting his headgear.

Since you can clearly steal headgear, I would say that if the headband is under a helmet (or hat), you would probably have to use 2 steal maneuvers: one to swipe the helmet followed by one to steal the headband.


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Gwen Smith wrote:

The Dead Man's Headband references the steal maneuver:

Quote:
In addition, if this headband is attached to the outside of a hat, the wearer’s hat or headgear cannot be blown off or removed by wind, water, or environmental effects, and the wearer gains a +5 circumstance bonus to his CMD against steal and sunder attempts targeting his headgear.
Since you can clearly steal headgear, I would say that if the headband is under a helmet (or hat), you would probably have to use 2 steal maneuvers: one to swipe the helmet followed by one to steal the headband.

So are you saying that you wouldn't consider a helmet to be closely worn such as armor and thus in category C?

Grand Lodge

Thanks guys.

It sounds like Headbands are loosely attached (A)

Unless they are magical (B).

Unless they are worn under removable helmet then it may require 2 separate attempts to remove first the helmet then the second the headband.

Unless it is a secure helmet (C) which means it cannot be stolen.

Generally I'm picturing an average combatant attempting to take the Magical headband off a spellcaster's head who does not normally wear a helm. To try to debuff the caster. So I guess in that case the caster is going to have a "+5 (or greater)" bonus to CMD against the steal attempt.

So to reiterate the question posted by

Secret Wizard wrote:
What does Steal WORK for?
Ziere Tole wrote:

A is probably correct in general, although I know in the case of one of my characters the headband is also underneath a helm, so in that situation the headband would be pretty hard to steal without removing the helm first.

As far as the necklace being easy to take, I would say that the implication there is that you're ripping the necklace off and breaking the clasp, not necessarily pulling the chain over the person's head.

It list brooches and necklaces as easy to take. However if Ziere Tole is right then magical ones would get a +5 (or greater) just becuase they are hard to break. (although the descritpion does not specifically say the stolen item is "broken".


Yeah, you are not "breaking" the headband, you are pulling hard enough that the knot is undone.

Scarab Sages

If planning on using this against a player, don't expect it to work more than once. After the first gotcha, every player in the campaign will specify they are using a secured helmet.


Most of the headbands are described as being made of a metal. I always envisioned them as being more of a circlet than a tied on piece of leather. Whats the reasoning for these being able to be "pulled" off?

Charisma: This attractive silver headband is decorated with a number of small red and orange gemstones
Wisdom: This simple bronze headband is decorated with an intricate pattern of small green gemstones.
Int: This intricate gold headband is decorated with several small blue and deep purple gemstones.

Unfortunately, it seems like very few characters in the art wear anything at all on their heads, much less something that matches the descriptions.


Tarantula wrote:
Gwen Smith wrote:

The Dead Man's Headband references the steal maneuver:

Quote:
In addition, if this headband is attached to the outside of a hat, the wearer’s hat or headgear cannot be blown off or removed by wind, water, or environmental effects, and the wearer gains a +5 circumstance bonus to his CMD against steal and sunder attempts targeting his headgear.
Since you can clearly steal headgear, I would say that if the headband is under a helmet (or hat), you would probably have to use 2 steal maneuvers: one to swipe the helmet followed by one to steal the headband.
So are you saying that you wouldn't consider a helmet to be closely worn such as armor and thus in category C?

I would not, no. I have seen bucket helms get knocked off of fighters in real life, and football helmets and motorcycle helmets get knocked off all the time. I have also known magicians who removed people's belts without them even realizing it.

So I have no problem believing that a skilled fighter using a combat maneuver could easily unbuckle or just break a single chin strap and remove a helmet.

I'd put helmets in category B.
(Hats are clearly in category A, because the Dead Man's Headband moves them into Category B.)

Grand Lodge

Artanthos wrote:
If planning on using this against a player, don't expect it to work more than once. After the first gotcha, every player in the campaign will specify they are using a secured helmet.

Being in the rules forum I assume anything that works well for me might eventually get used against me, be it as a player or a GM. I'm just trying to find out what is considered a fair ruling on either side. Like I said It would be nice if it works well but not too well.

On the other hand as has been pointed out there doesn't seem to be much use for the steal maneuver in general.

Scarab Sages

A helmet would be C if it was strapped to your chin. If it was loose, it would be A.


Even if it is strapped to your chin, it's not anywhere near as difficult to remove as armor or boots. You could:

1) pull the strap forward and slip it off the chin and then yank the helm off the head
2) undo the clasp on the strap
or
3) break the strap

Cloaks or pouches are also strapped to you, and they are explicitly in category B.


RumpinRufus wrote:

Even if it is strapped to your chin, it's not anywhere near as difficult to remove as armor or boots. You could:

1) pull the strap forward and slip it off the chin and then yank the helm off the head
2) undo the clasp on the strap
or
3) break the strap

Cloaks or pouches are also strapped to you, and they are explicitly in category B.

If you can pull the strap forward and slip it off, the helmet is the wrong size for you. Motorcycle helmets fit very snugly and are not easy to pull of without specifically undoing the strap.

As to points 2 and 3 my expectation is that the strap is not something you can generally reach to pull off. Steal does not damage the item, so you are not breaking or damaging the items in any way. No cutting/breaking the strap.

Here was the first example I could find of how a plate helmet is put on, there isn't even any strap. You would have to open the visor, then pull off the front portion, then pull the helmet off. Much more complex than a cloak or pouch.


If you're not damaging the item in any way then some things break down. Why are necklaces valid targets but rings aren't? Personally I think Steal is written poorly enough that it needs to be redone, there's very little sense in what's in what category.


Fraust wrote:
If you're not damaging the item in any way then some things break down. Why are necklaces valid targets but rings aren't? Personally I think Steal is written poorly enough that it needs to be redone, there's very little sense in what's in what category.

Because its basically impossible to take a ring off someones closed fist?

Its possible that the chain of the necklace isn't the "magic" part and is just a basic strap/chain that has no value and is easily and immediately repaired/replaced. The problem I have is with the description of the headbands being metal. If they are metal there is no simple way to just yank them off. Which makes me lean more towards B/C categories.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Tarantula wrote:


Unfortunately, it seems like very few characters in the art wear anything at all on their heads, much less something that matches the descriptions.

I accept your challenge:

NPC Codex:


  • Page 50, Death Priest, stats say Headband of inspired Wisdom +2, art shows thin red leather band around forehead (i'd say a A to steal, except that hood :P)

  • page 39, spell sword, headband of cha +2, wearing green cloth headband tying up his hair, probably an A

  • page 33, Seance Medium, headband of cha, weird skull clasp thing with net

  • page 51, headband of wis +2, head wrap with brass/copper circlet thing, probably a B or a C

  • Page 52, headband of wis, steel crown, easy pickings

  • Page 55, headband +4, rope cord holding back a serious mane of hair, probably an A, maybe a B

  • page 60, steel ring wrapped around lower skull and hooked into mouth, probably a C, but would you even want to take it...

  • page 67, bandana with clasp, A

  • page 71, leather band with antlers, an A so long as the headband itself doesn't get an AoO

Thats just a quick survey, without making a spreadsheet, I would say about 2/3 of the ones whose stats list a headband actually have one, and of the art 2/3 are probably easy taken, the remaining 1/3 are difficult either by design, or because of helmet/mask or other interfering, but interference being the most common case.

GM wise I would say unless you have a helm/headgear it is an A, which really means most martial are more or less immune but also suffer the least from it.

I figure if you want to invest in the steal feat chain you should get to use it from time to time. But if you get known for it, don't expect the BBEG to not protect themselves even if the mooks don't


I just looked at iconics with a google image search. Let me take a look...

Doing ctrl+f for headband:
page 33; he has a kind of headband looking thing with 3 straps on it. About like a hat. I'd call it an A.
page 35. Has a ribbony thing in her hair. Looks woven into her hair. I'd call it a B.
page 36; wrap multiple times around the head and under hair. Call it a B.
Page 38; Large hat. No obvious headband. Hat would be an A. Headband under it would probably be a C until hat is gone.
page 39; green headband, probably A.
page 40; long green headband, ties through and under hair, B.
Wearing a hat, C until hat is gone.
Page 42; No visible headband at all.
page 43; Slight purple looking thing under robe. Not obvious though. Call it a C till the hood is pulled off.
page 50; thin red headband under hood. C until hood is off.
page 51; pretty intense wrap around head, hair and chin. Probably a C.
page 52; finally, one that somewhat matches up to the description. Looks like it might go into his hair, or just have spikes, hard to tell. Probably A though as it just slips on.
page 53; No visible headband at all.
page 54; metal and woven in through hair braids. I'd call it a C until it was unwoven from the hair.
page 55; no obvious headband, has a hat with feathers in it. C if its under the hat.
page 56; mask and hood, no visible headband. C
page 57; no visible headband. Has a metal hat. Might be the headband. A if its the hat, C if its under the hat.
page 58; hard to tell but it looks like a metal wrap under the mask. I'd call it a C as it looks woven into the hair.
page 59; hood, no visible headband. call it a c till the hood is off.

As it is, it looks like headbands can be A B or C. So depending on how your player feels like describing their headband, as apparently there is plenty of flow with it, it could be any of the above. Even for a wizard its easy to simply have your hood up or wear a wizardly hat to prevent easy headband theft.

Out of the basic outfits in the core book: artisan's, cold weather, explorer's, scholar's, and traveler's outfits all come with caps/hats/hoods which would make headband theft more difficult or impossible (without stealing the hat first).

While I agree that steal should get to be used, expect that the listed items are available at those difficulties, and unlisted items might be more difficult to steal, especially if your BBEG knows its your signature thing.

Grand Lodge

Wow! Thanks for doing all the research guys.

I guess there is a lot of variance within headbands and how they can be worn. It'll just have to remain in one of those categories of things subject to highly situational modifiers and not guaranteed to be easy, hard, or even impossible. Sometimes that as clear as the rules get and you just have to deal with it.

Thanks again guys I appreciate the effort.


Tarantula...it might fall outside the realms of what Steal is supposed to cover...but no, you can force a ring off someone making a fist.

As to the chain not being the magic part...that's along the lines I was originally thinking. The test covered grabbing the medallion part and snapping the chain. The arguments against the chin strap on a helm breaking is what made me think the item couldn't be damaged at all.

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