CRB and New Divine Spells


Rules Questions


Hi All,

I'm pretty new to PF and I was reading around the CRB this morning when I came across this passage:

Quote:

New Divine Spells

Divine spellcasters gain new spells as follows.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, she learns al of the spells from that level automatically.

Here's the interesting part. It goes on to say:

Quote:

Independent Research: A divine spellcaster can also research a spell independently, much as an arcane spellcaster can. Only the creator of such a spell can prepare and cast it, unless she decides to share it with others.

I'm playing a low level Druid. The simplest way I'm willing to interpret this is that I would be able to learn Cleric spells that a Druid doesn't learn in the same manner as a wizard researches spells. This means it should take at least a week to learn and at least 1,000 GP per level of the spell.

However, there are plenty of arcane spells that divine casters can learn as well. This raises questions about what makes an arcane spell arcane opposed to divine.

My questions are as follows:

  • Do I understand the rules about a Druid learning a Cleric spells through this rule in the CRB?
  • Can a Druid learn arcane spells in this manner?

Thanks all in advance!

Sczarni

I've always interpreted the "Independent Research" rules as creating your own spell (or a variation of an existing spell) and not simply gaining spells from other lists.

You could research a corrosive version of Produce Flame, for example, or customize some sort of plant-themed spell unique to your character concept.

But, however you go about doing it, it's really about the interaction with your GM. They'll have to approve anything you come up with (which may include something as simple as adding Fireball to your spell list).

YMMV.


Nefreet wrote:

I've always interpreted the "Independent Research" rules as creating your own spell (or a variation of an existing spell) and not simply gaining spells from other lists.

You could research a corrosive version of Produce Flame, for example, or customize some sort of plant-themed spell unique to your character concept.

But, however you go about doing it, it's really about the interaction with your GM. They'll have to approve anything you come up with (which may include something as simple as adding Fireball to your spell list).

YMMV.

That makes sense. That was a third interpretation that I had forgotten to mention. Thanks for the answer.

Does everyone else agree with this?


Everything has to be approved by your GM first and foremost.

In general, it is bad form to allow a player to steal spells from other spell lists. In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another. A GM should be very hesitant to allow you to just take the spell from another class.

But to clarify one thing, a druid can never learn an arcane spell, though he might be able to learn a spell that appears on both arcane and divine spell list. A druid can only cast divine spells. What's the difference? Well a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it. Arcane spells are subject to spell failure chance. Scrolls can be made as either divine or arcane spells, and you couldn't use a scroll of an arcane spell even if it was on your spell list as a divine spell because it is fundamentally different.

If you do take spells from other spell list I suggest your GM look at wish/miracle for ideas how to balance it. Upping the spell slot used by 1 to 2 levels is decent way to balance it out, but still shouldn't be done willy-nilly.


Claxon wrote:

Everything has to be approved by your GM first and foremost.

In general, it is bad form to allow a player to steal spells from other spell lists. In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another. A GM should be very hesitant to allow you to just take the spell from another class.

But to clarify one thing, a druid can never learn an arcane spell, though he might be able to learn a spell that appears on both arcane and divine spell list. A druid can only cast divine spells. What's the difference? Well a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it. Arcane spells are subject to spell failure chance. Scrolls can be made as either divine or arcane spells, and you couldn't use a scroll of an arcane spell even if it was on your spell list as a divine spell because it is fundamentally different.

If you do take spells from other spell list I suggest your GM look at wish/miracle for ideas how to balance it. Upping the spell slot used by 1 to 2 levels is decent way to balance it out, but still shouldn't be done willy-nilly.

Good to know! I thought that a week was a long enough time in the grand scheme of a campaign that learning a few extra spells wouldn't be too game changing, but I can see how that would be "bad form." Thanks!

Part of your response confuses me though. You say that a divine spell is granted by a deity, but I've read that Druids don't require a deity. Faith maybe, but not a deity. Are you saying that my Druid requires a deity to be casting his spells?

And although you described the sources of divine casters vs arcane caster, that doesn't describe why certain spells are arcane vs divine and why some are both. Can you elaborate on this?

Thanks!

*EDIT* Reread what Claxon wrote thanks to Nefreet. I have to level up my reading skill.

Sczarni

Dr.FelixUrr wrote:
Part of your response confuses me though. You say that a divine spell is granted by a deity, but I've read that Druids don't require a deity. Faith maybe, but not a deity. Are you saying that my Druid requires a deity to be casting his spells?

That's not what he said.

Claxon wrote:
a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it.


Nefreet wrote:
Dr.FelixUrr wrote:
Part of your response confuses me though. You say that a divine spell is granted by a deity, but I've read that Druids don't require a deity. Faith maybe, but not a deity. Are you saying that my Druid requires a deity to be casting his spells?

That's not what he said.

Claxon wrote:
a divine spell is granted by a deity, reverence for nature, etc and could be revoked if you don't act in accordance with it.

Whoops. Totally right Nefreet. My bad @Claxon.

Any thoughts on my second point Nefreet?

Sczarni

Indeed, although my response is likely jumbled from my experience with so many game systems.

Divine spells have a different "feel" from arcane spells (and psionic spells, for those game systems that utilize them).

Divine spells typically heal, enhance, purify, protect, and vanquish diametrically opposing forces better than arcane spells.

Arcane spells typically damage, manipulate, transport, dispel, and interact with the elements better than Divine spells.

(exceptions obviously exist)

So, Fireball (a spell that deals immense damage using elemental energy) is an appropriate 3rd level arcane spell.

For a Druid, who does have access to damaging elemental spells, the closest comparison they have is Flamestrike, a 4th level spell.

For a Cleric, who has very little access to damaging elemental spells, Flamestrike is a 5th level spell.

Does that help a bit?


Claxon wrote:
In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another.

Well, except for the metric buttload of overlap between the spell lists, and domain spells ...

Scarab Sages

Zhayne wrote:
Claxon wrote:
In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another.
Well, except for the metric buttload of overlap between the spell lists, and domain spells ...

And mystery spells. And patron spells. And the bard & witch spell lists. And the magaambyan arcanist PrC.


Zhayne wrote:
Claxon wrote:
In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another.
Well, except for the metric buttload of overlap between the spell lists, and domain spells ...
Imbicatus wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Claxon wrote:
In general there are reason for why the spell list exist as they do for each class and why divine magic does its thing and arcane magic does another.
Well, except for the metric buttload of overlap between the spell lists, and domain spells ...

And mystery spells. And patron spells. And the bard & witch spell lists. And the magaambyan arcanist PrC.

Indeed on both your points. The delineation was pretty good/okay in the CRB. But as more classes, domains, and other material in general have been added the lines have been blurred.

But the important thing is that a lot of these methods of getting spells between or form another spell list involve using mystery/domain/patron to get them which is a limited (1 time selection at creation of character, and at most you get 2 i.e. domains).

But in general divine casters are better at buffing, healing, status removal sort of things. They are typically bad at dealing damage directly with spells.

Arcane spell casters get a lot more variation in spells. The can buff, but typically not as well as divine casters. Or at least very...differently.

Honestly, most of it is inhereted from Dungeons and Dragons 3.0/3.5 systems and how they were laid out and Pathfinder continued from that foundation (with guidelines that are only really clear to the designers). Of course 3.X inherited its spell system from early generations of the game with similar basis for the separation of divine and arcane magic. There aren't any hard and fast rules, which is why (due to its subjective nature) the GM has to get involved when spell research comes up.


@Claxon Fantastic explanation. I really appreciate this.

To get back to my original point:

What applications of the New Divine Spells rule have you guys/ladies used to create interesting/fun spells or combos?

Also, I'm assuming everyone understands this rule similar to how Nefreet explains it in the second post, since this is how I will interpret this rule going forward.


The most common sort of thing I've seen is blaster wizard/sorcerer researching alternative versions of spells like fireball to be lightning ball or acid ball or something similar. They like the spell, but just want it to be a different energy type. This sort of change is usually pretty acceptable to a DM since you're only changing the energy type and in order to have the other version you either have to prepare the spell or have the other version as one of your other spells known.

Scarab Sages

Basically, this rule is you can make any spell you want, if your GM approves it. The cost and time for doing so is whatever your GM says, at a minimum of what is listed.

It's really just rule 0 in print.

Discussion of spell research should be done with your GM, not on the rules boards, because anything we come up with may not be applicable to your home game.


Imbicatus wrote:

Basically, this rule is you can make any spell you want, if your GM approves it. The cost and time for doing so is whatever your GM says, at a minimum of what is listed.

It's really just rule 0 in print.

Discussion of spell research should be done with your GM, not on the rules boards, because anything we come up with may not be applicable to your home game.

Thanks Imbicatus. I definitely will talk to my GM about this. I've mentioned this in other threads, but forgot to mention it in this one (it's hard for me to keep track). I'm new to PF along with my fellow players and GM. I'm asking these questions on the rules board as a spring board for a discussion between myself and my GM. Obviously I wouldn't attempt anything without the consent of him. Thanks for the reminder though.

@Claxon That makes sense about the blaster wizard/sorcerer. I'll probably be hitting the books again to see if there's any sort of interesting way I could alter a druid spell to fit more inline with my own character's backstory. Thanks!

Sczarni

There are guidelines, somewhere, for researching new spells. I specifically remember reading about how to determine the level of a direct damage spell, using its maximum damage dice and type as a baseline.

But I'm away from my books at the moment. Maybe take a glance in Ultimate Magic? Or the Advanced Players Guide.

They're out there somewhere.

Sczarni

AHA! Found 'em!!


Nefreet wrote:
AHA! Found 'em!!

Woah Nefreet! That adds so much flexibility to the game! I'm slightly drooling right now! Haha.

Thanks for your help with this and to everyone else.

I'm always interested in hearing what spells you have created through this rule, but maybe that's best left to a different thread.

Sczarni

Indeed. Try the Advice forum for that.

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