So simulacrum has been a point of contention in the magic system for quite some time now, being a favorite example of a broken, abusable spell.
Some examples of abuse of simulacrum include using it to gain a succubus's (or even Nocticula's) profane gift to your key ability score with no consequences (because the fake succubus is under your control and thus can't revoke the gift unless you tell it to), or creating a pit fiend or genie to abuse their wish ability.
The simulacrum can also be possessed via magic jar to enable truly staggering shenanigans with blood money and similar effects.
Even without complete and total cheese such as this, it can grant permanent access to a minion with cleric spellcasting, such as a ghaele azata, or any number of other game-distorting abilities.
The developer's answer is that making a simulacrum of a creature does more than adjust its saves, hit points, skill ranks, feats, and attack bonus; it also weakens their special abilities. But there are no rules in place for doing this consistently and it would need to be done on a case by case basis.
For example, a pit fiend simulacrum should look something like this:
Spoiler:
Spell-like abilities (CL 10th):
3/day–scorching ray, protection from good
1/day–fireball, dispel magic, dimension door (self plus 50 lbs of objects only), invisibility, major image, unholy blight, wall of fire, hold monster, summon (1 barbazu, level 3)
fire resist 20, +8 on saves vs. poison, acid 5, cold 5, SR 16
DR 5/good or silver, no regeneration
Disease: devil chills
Poison: 1 Con, 1/round for 4 rounds, cure 2 consecutive saves
Str 24, Dex 20, Con 12.5, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Lose wish, devil shaping, etc.
Now, 5e changed simulacrum considerably. It now requires you have the power to physically touch the target for the spell to work, and can only duplicate humanoids or animals. You can also only have 1 at a time.
While a relatively simple fix, I think this might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Also, it would require rewriting the spell, whereas I would prefer to leave the spell text as-is and simply adjust the output to keep it from being broken.
So, let's see if we can come up with some guidelines.
The creature's caster level for spell-like and supernatural abilities, if equal to its hit dice, is halved. If it is less than its hit dice, it is reduced by 1/4. If it is more than its Hit Dice, it is reduced to its Hit Dice.
If the caster level for a spell-like ability is not at least equal to 1/2 the spell's level minus 1 (that is, the minimum wizard/cleric/druid level to cast the spell), it loses that ability. A thematically similar ability can be used to replace it, such as replacing permanent image with minor image, chain lightning with lightning bolt, greater teleport with dimension door, or replacing a greater, major, or mass version of the spell with the normal, minor, or single-target version of the spell.
Spell-like abilities of a spell level of 1st or 2nd that are usable at will become usable 3/day. Spell-like abilities of 3rd, 4th, or 5th level that are usable at will become usable 1/day, or are replaced with lesser versions usable 3/day (or at will for 1st-level spells). Spell-like abilities of 3rd, 4th, or 5th level that are usable 3/day or less become lesser versions available 1/day. Spell-like cantrips are unchanged.
Supernatural abilities that are based on spells and with only minor changes, if any (such as the vampire's dominate person power) follow the guidelines in the previous bullet as if they were spells (for example, the vampire's dominate person power instead becomes charm person, with the same bonus to the victim's saves for being in combat as in the spell description).
Spell-like abilities that duplicate spells that are not 5th level or lower on at least one class's spell list, a casting time longer than 1 full round, an expensive material component or focus, and/or a duration longer than 24 hours, are not retained. If lesser versions that do not violate these guidelines exist, they gain those instead.
Any ability to cast spells as a member of a character class (such as the rakshasa's sorcerer casting or the ghaele's cleric casting) uses 1/2 the effective class level of the base monster, rounded down. It cannot prepare or cast spells that violate the guidelines in the above bullet point.
The creature loses any item creation feats it might have.
Damage reduction above 10 is reduced to 10 if it can be overcome purely by magic or a weapon damage type such as bludgeoning. Damage reduction above 5 is reduced to 5 if it can only be overcome by alignment or a special material. Any "and" in the DR entry becomes "or."
Regeneration becomes fast healing, and the maximum is either the base creature's regeneration value or 5, whichever is less. Creatures whose regeneration permitted the regrowth or reattachment of lost limbs or organs now regrow them via fast healing.
SR values are halved.
Ability scores are reduced to 1/2 the base creature's score +5, rounded up, to a minimum of 10 or the creature's initial score in the ability if it was already lower than 10.
The maximum natural armor bonus is 5 for a Medium or smaller creature, or 5 + the creature's size penalty to AC for Large or larger creatures (i.e. +6 for a Large creature, +7 Huge, +9 Gargantuan, +13 Colossal).
Energy immunity becomes energy resistance 20, unless the creature has immunity due to a subtype such as cold or fire (but not devil or another subtype that is exclusive to one creature type).
Immunity to other effects (such as poison, disease, death effects, or mind-affecting effects) becomes a +8 bonus on saving throws against those effects, unless the immunity comes from creature type (such as undead immunity to mind-affecting effects or plant creature immunity to polymorph effects).
Energy resistance and saving throw bonuses against types of effects (such as poison or enchantment effects) are halved.
Breath weapon damage is halved, and abilities that inflict ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain inflict half the normal amount of damage or drain (minimum 1).
The creature loses any spell-like or supernatural ability (other than one that directly duplicates a spell) that would grant a long-term (24 hours or longer) bonus to another creature's attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, ability scores, caster level, ability checks, skill checks, concentration checks, caster level checks, skill ranks, feats known, hit points, effective Hit Dice, or other character statistic.
Those are all good suggestions, but they constitute a fairly long laundry list.
I would certainly retain your guidelines regarding SLAs and so on, as you've stated them. Indeed, I'd like to see a general rule that no creature gets SLAs that are of a level disproportionate to the monster's CR, but that's a different story.
I'd maybe handle hp, damage, attributes, etc. by rebuilding the monster (using the "creating monsters" guidelines in the Bestiary) as a critter of 1/2 the CR of the original.
Most importantly, I'd set a standard rule limiting the total CR (and not HD) worth of "magic minions" you can control, including created undead, summoned monsters, and simulacra -- along the lines of what the Leadership feat allows. This alone would cut down drastically on abuse of planar binding and spammed summon nature's allies, as well as prohibiting the "army of simulacra."
You are taking half measures with this thing. The 5e solution seems like a good one.
The real issue with this spell, at least in regards to previous versions of the game, is the removal of the "piece" of the thing to make a simulacrum of.
Right now there are no limits.
Want to make a simulacrum of your BBEG and ask him questions? What stops you?
This big ruined underground temple/dungeon complex is kind of big and has lots of hidden passages. Make a simulacrum of the guy that built it. Then have him give you the tour.
I realize that you might say you have to have some familiarity with the creature, but let's look at the RAW text.
"Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only half of the real creature's levels or HD (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Perception check (opposed by the caster's Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check."
No where does it say anything about being familiar with the creature. I've looked at this before, and it is not apparent that it stops you from making simulacra of things that might POSSIBLY exist.
Note that sentence: "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."
Okay I am at least a 13th level wizard. I am going to make a simulacra of a 15 hit die astral deva with 11 levels of cleric. If you the dm tell me I can't, then I can only imagine that this combo doesn't exist.
Anywhere. What are the odds?
I might add that that same sentence "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level." may or may not affect your proposed fixes. Are there any 26 hit die advanced astral devas (forget about class levels)? If so, that isn't going to sting very much.
And why should any dm want to allow a spell that requires him to spend time adjudicating this thing for any creatable simulacra? I mean do I want to spend time puzzling over what exactly I have with a half hit die version of a 20th level Fighter who is the Emperor's bodyguard? As written this requires me to redo all his feats. Doable, but why do I want the workload? This game is full of fiddly bits that do nothing but slow up gameplay and turn high level encounters into multi-hour affairs. I want more?
What a half hit die Kaiju or Tarrasque is exactly?
This spell isn't worth the time it takes to save it. The 5e version sounds like a really good fix. Tieing it to a real creature and having to have a body part like in previous versions is not as good but it works.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
One of the house rules I use...
The only simulacrum a caster can create that can cast spells is his own personal self. It's caster level will be half his own and can have One set of spells prepared or one set of spell slots (if a sorcerer is casting them) Once the spell slots are expended, they can not be refreshed by any means.
A caster can have only one simulacra of this time in existence at any one time. He can make other copies of himself but they are treated as if they have no spellcasting ability, nor access to his spell list.
Honestly, I have a larger problem with the flavor of the spell. To me, it doesn't make any sense that you can cast a single spell to create an Efreeti and essentially get at-will scorching rays and plane shifts and get X amount of spells 3 times per day. That would be like if there existed a spell that granted you 9 free spell slots a day. That's madness. At least summon monster makes sense (it's a creature independent of you) and it's heavily regulated.
If I remade simulacrum, I'd split it into several spells, each one for a different creature type. It creates a creature of the type with CR X. If it has any of the abilities listed in its comparable polymorph spell description, it has those abilities.
The real issue with this spell, at least in regards to previous versions of the game, is the removal of the "piece" of the thing to make a simulacrum of.
I strongly agree with this as well.
PRD wrote:
You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level.
This, to me, would be addressed by the hard cap on CR of magic minions that I alluded to above. If you wanted to treat the simulacrum in your "cohort" slot, you're still at CR = yours -3. If it's a lesser minion, it would be even lower than that.
The real issue with this spell, at least in regards to previous versions of the game, is the removal of the "piece" of the thing to make a simulacrum of.
I think it's reasonable to say that you can't make an ice sculpture of something if you have no idea what it looks like, any more than you can forge someone's handwriting with Linguistics if you've never seen their handwriting.
sunbeam wrote:
Want to make a simulacrum of your BBEG and ask him questions? What stops you?
Nowhere does the spell say the simulacrum has the memories specific to the original individual. It can fill in things tied directly to an ability score or character class by the game rules, such as spellcasting, attacking with a natural or manufactured weapon, weapon proficiency, and so on, but at its core, it's really just a hunk of ice with a complex shadow illusion giving it the semblance of life.
Also, a simulacrum of a single 6 HD creature blows through just as much cash as a limited wish, as does healing a mere 15 hit points.
sunbeam wrote:
This big ruined underground temple/dungeon complex is kind of big and has lots of hidden passages. Make a simulacrum of the guy that built it. Then have him give you the tour.
Assuming we're not talking about a transmuter's personal lair, you can't even unambiguously identify "the guy that built it", because multiple people could fit that description, including the guy or guys who decided the structure needed to be built, the guy or guys who came up with the concept for the building, every architect that had a hand in its design, the supervisors that oversaw the construction, the foremen that oversaw the work crews, etc.
If you can't unambiguously identify the individual you wish to make a simulacrum of, it actually makes no logical sense for the spell to work. Imagine if a caster in the real world said "I'm going to create a simulacrum of the Roman Emperor." There are a ton of people that fit that qualification, which itself was rather subjective in its historical implementation.
sunbeam wrote:
No where does it say anything about being familiar with the creature. I've looked at this before, and it is not apparent that it stops you from making simulacra of things that might POSSIBLY exist.
Note that sentence: "You can't create a simulacrum of a creature whose HD or levels exceed twice your caster level."
Okay I am at least a 13th level wizard. I am going to make a simulacra of a 15 hit die astral deva with 11 levels of cleric.
Sure, I guess you could try that. Of course, the spell doesn't specifically state what special abilities, if any, it will retain, so it may not be worth blowing an extra 4% of your wealth by level for those cleric levels on something that may not work in a way that justifies the added expense.
sunbeam wrote:
If you, the dm, tell me I can't, then I can only imagine that this combo doesn't exist.
Anywhere. What are the odds?
Potentially rather high, depending on the campaign world.
In a standard "There are infinite planes and infinite material worlds" of planescape and Golarion fame, close to 100%, or in fact 100% if they are being literal when they say infinite.
But in a given DM's game, an astral deva who acquires that much additional power may well transition to planetar and then solar, especially since those other, more powerful creatures have innate cleric casting.
Most would call that a house rule, but it's not done specifically to change the way simulacrum works; it's just part of the DM's view of how the campaign world functions. So it's not houseruling simulacrum.
I think it's reasonable to say that you can't make an ice sculpture of something if you have no idea what it looks like, any more than you can forge someone's handwriting with Linguistics if you've never seen their handwriting.
Maybe so. Maybe you have made the world's worst image of Bob, the evil Emperor. But nothing in the spell says it won't work. ANd nothing says that it has to be a perfect copy of Bob to have Bob's... Bobness.
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Nowhere does the spell say the simulacrum has the memories specific to the original individual. It can fill in things tied directly to an ability score or character class by the game rules, such as spellcasting, attacking with a natural or manufactured weapon, weapon proficiency, and so on, but at its core, it's really just a hunk of ice with a complex shadow illusion giving it the semblance of life.
Also, a simulacrum of a single 6 HD creature blows through just as much cash as a limited wish, as does healing a mere 15 hit points.
This is the very first edition of the game that didn't require you to have a piece of the subject to have a simulacrum of.
And while without poring through a bunch of 1e and 2e modules, I am very sure that Simulacrum has always given you the memories of the subject in question. I can tell you that I have never been in a game in any edition where the simulacra did not have these memories.
Actually I have always assumed the intended use of this spell, or at least the big inspiration for it was to be able to make a double of someone and have that double take it's place. It'd do a bad job without the memories.
See what you have here is a house rule. A perfectly reasonable one, but I don't think it has ever worked the way you indicate.
As far as the healing goes, no one heals them. They just make another.
sunbeam wrote:
This big ruined underground temple/dungeon complex is kind of big and has lots of hidden passages. Make a simulacrum of the guy that built it. Then have him give you the tour.
Thelemic_Noun wrote:
Assuming we're not talking about a transmuter's personal lair, you can't even unambiguously identify "the guy that built it", because multiple people could fit that description, including the guy or guys who decided the structure needed to be built, the guy or guys who came up with the concept for the building, every architect that had a hand in its design, the supervisors that oversaw the construction, the foremen that oversaw the work crews, etc.
If you can't unambiguously identify the individual you wish to make a simulacrum of, it actually makes no logical sense for the spell to work. Imagine if a caster in the real world said "I'm going to create a simulacrum of the Roman Emperor." There are a ton of people that fit that qualification, which itself was...
I can't say you are wrong. But the RAW doesn't say you are right.
This is the very first edition of D&D that has not had the material requirement for making these things. This has literally never come up before.
Would you let me cast Vision, then make a Simulacra?
I cannot say you are wrong about what Paizo meant as RAI. Although I don't think Paizo spent a lot of time thinking about this spell. Ignoring the splatbooks (the many, many splatbooks), the spells were a direct cut and past of the srd. Some spells were adjusted to make it more "balanced," others weren't touched. This spell evidently was changed by someone for whatever reason, they didn't like the material component whatever. Or maybe it was a total mistake somehow, someone hit delete without thinking about it? Although that isn't likely since the blurb reads the way it does.
So someone wanted it to work this way.
It would be nice if someone at Paizo would say exactly what this spell can do, and what they had in mind in the first place. But this thing has been FAQ'ed for a while now, and so far as I know it has not been addressed.
But the thing about the memories is a total house rule of yours, and isn't backed up by anything. I'm trying to think back to the old Gord the Rogue books, and the copy of the Drow Priestess. I think it was a Clone, not a Simulacra but I can't remember. And I'm not digging those things up now.
The spell does not address whether memories are created. It could reasonably be ruled either way. While I find it problematic to argue for memories, language in the Bestiary 4 creature "fungal creature" specially cites memories being lost in that separate process.
This reminds me of shadow walk. You can use shadow magic to make partially real ways to go pretty much anywhere.
Let's see if we can condense & simplify these guidelines:
The creature's effective class level for spellcasting is halved.
Caster level for spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities that function similarly to spells (like a vampire's Dominate Person) is also halved. If the new caster level for an ability is not at least equal to the minimum wizard/cleric/druid level to cast the spell, it loses that ability. A thematically similar ability can be used to replace it, such as replacing chain lightning with lightning bolt or replacing a greater, major, or mass version of the spell with the normal, minor, or single-target version of the spell.
Spell-like abilities that are usable at will become usable 3/day. Abilities usable 3/day become usable 1/day. Do not reduce uses/day of spells already replaced with a lesser version as above.
The creature loses any spells and spell-like abilities with a casting time longer than 1 full round, an expensive material component or focus, and/or a duration longer than 24 hours. They also lose any magical ability that would grant a long-term (24 hours or longer) bonus to another creature's statistics. This includes item creation feats. If lesser versions that do not violate these guidelines exist, they gain those instead.
Damage reduction, regeneration, fast healing, SR, energy resistances, save bonuses to specific effects, and natural armour are halved (round down). Any "and" in the DR entry becomes "or." Energy immunity becomes resistance 20 and immunity to other effects becomes +8 on saving throws.
Special ability damage is halved, including breath weapon damage and abilities that inflict ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain (minimum 1).
Average all ability scores above 11 with 11 to obtain the new score (round down).
I think it makes sense additionally to say that you must know the name and likeness of any creature you intend to create (whether species of individual). I'm on the fence about memories but perhaps that should depend on whether you are able to obtain a physical part of the target - and perhaps incorporating a personal possession might give the simulacra incomplete memories? That would I think allow its use for infiltration in interesting ways but require the party to expend some effort
