How do you deal with 'must have' magic items.


Advice

Scarab Sages

So, I'm by no means a 'Pathfinder elite.' I know some rules, know how to avoid building completely crap characters, but I'm not, like, a guy who knows the system inside and out. So, with that in mind, I've noticed a lot of the advice on the boards boils down to: every character 'needing' certain items. And, yes, those items are useful, but doesn't that basically ruin about 90% of the magical items in the book? I mean, if you are never going to choose something because you 'need' a different item in that slot.

Okay, so from what I've seen on the boards, every character 'needs' the following gear.
1) A metric load of alchemical supplies. Holy water, air crystals antitoxin antivenom, ambrosia, vitus flask, buoyant balloons (never know when you need to reduce the weight of something by 20 lbs!), alchemical fire, acid, lightning, alkali flasks, and a million other things I'm forgetting. All of this should be placed in a (must have) handy haversack. These don't take up 'slots' admittedly, but should the Int 7 Barbarian really know about all this stuff? Or when or how to use it?
2)Cloak of resistance (best possible)
3)Ring of protection (best possible)
4)Amulet of natural armor (best possible)(maybe only a 'must have' for melee types)
5)Belt of the physical stat you need the most (default=con)
6)Headband of the mental stat you need the most (maybe only a 'must have' for types that really need mental stats.)

It just seems that you are limiting yourself. If you have a Shadowdancer, you want a cloak of elvenkind so that even inquisitors can't find you, right? NO! Cloak of resistance. And heaven forbid you play a Monk because you have to choose between an agile amulet of the mighty fists and an amulet of natural armor. Your thief gets a security belt which lets him steal better, pretty good, right? Nope! Sell that drek, you 'need' a belt of dexterity.

I'm just wondering, is all of this really necessary? I mean, some people claim that all paizo monsters factor in that players WILL have the above list, so why does Paizo even offer items in other slots? To reward 'system optimization?

I just . . . it gets me kinda down that, if this is the way Paizo expects me to be competitive at later levels, that all my magic item choices are decided for me. I dunno . . . thoughts?


Just a minor point. Most Monks can pick up the Quinggong Archetype and get the power to cast Barkskin. In fact my Zen Archer has Swarmbane Clasp for his neck slot. But you are right about the Cloak of Resistance and Ring of Protection.


If I recall you can stack effects on wondrous items, it's just a lot more expensive.

Scarab Sages

HyperMissingno wrote:
If I recall you can stack effects on wondrous items, it's just a lot more expensive.

When designing your own magic items, you can include a secondary ability, but the cost is increased on the cheaper ability by 50%. But this is all subject to DM permission. So , if your GM allows it either you commission a "Cloak of Elvenkind Resistance," have your buddy craft, it, or . . . well the chances of finding exactly what you want to buy in a town are slim to none, even in large cities like Absolom.


The "Big Six" are Weapon, Armor, Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Stat Boosters. The reason they're "required" is that the math of the game is based upon you having them at a certain level. They're all simple +X items so it's really easy to predict their effect on the game. You can also predict what not having them means, since they're just 1-5 less defense (AC or saves) or 1-5 less attack/damage.

If you look at 3.5 Vow of Poverty it basically gives you at what level you should have all of them. Other people also have alternate systems to replace them.

And you can replace Cloak of Elvenkind with Shadow on armor.

Scarab Sages

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

The "Big Six" are Weapon, Armor, Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Stat Boosters. The reason they're "required" is that the math of the game is based upon you having them at a certain level. They're all simple +X items so it's really easy to predict their effect on the game. You can also predict what not having them means, since they're just 1-5 less defense (AC or saves) or 1-5 less attack/damage.

If you look at 3.5 Vow of Poverty it basically gives you at what level you should have all of them. Other people also have alternate systems to replace them.

And you can replace Cloak of Elvenkind with Shadow on armor.

So does that mean my, say, arcane trickster can't have Bracers of Falcon's aim (giving him a bonus to ranged attacks, including ray attacks, as well as a bonus to perception to find traps) without being gimped because he 'needs' bracers of armor? I mean, I guess he could get a Haramaki, but the point I'm trying to make stands. There are some cool items out there, but apparently players are never expected to get them because they 'need' the main six. So while glamoured armor would be great for a rogue to do some infiltrating by posing as an enemy guard, nope, he can never have it because the +2 bonus is too precious to waste on non-plus-to-AC bonuses.


I've truthfully not had enough of a problem to really sweat it at any given time.

I mean yeah "ideally" you want a solution to every problem and all the defenses possible. However at lower level you focus on what really matters for your character. After all magical bonus to AC are nice... but usually some new mundane armor will be fine (after all a +1 ring of protection is 2,000 where as going from a chain shirt to a breast plate is an increase of 2 for the price of 150... 300 if you want masterwork).

Generally it's about knowing when what resources become really must haves (for example you can probably skip the +1 cloak of resistance... but unless you have really good saves, you'll probably want a +2 or +3 by level 10).

Most of the time the "ideal equipment" is assumed in builds on boards because its safe. At your table people are unlikely to raise heck if you have a different item, on the board when giving advice or doing build comparisons however it's an easy place to build agreement.

Boring? Yes -- however functional, and facilitates easy dialog.

EDIT: For example the above arcane trickster -- he would be better served with the ceremonial silk armor, or Haramaki or armored skirt. The price is going to be better generally for the bonus received and it leaves the arms open for the much better bracers of the falcon.

Indeed it's more about making sure you have the bonus than it is what item the bonus is coming from.


Glamered armor is worth less than +2 armor (about as much as +1 armor and +1 deflection/NA), and the only downside to getting it is that you'll have 2 less AC. The downside to getting bracer's of falcon's aim instead of something giving you AC is less AC. And yes, if you have no armor bonus you'll find yourself getting hit more often. Usually by iterative attacks.

They aren't "required" any more than every party has to have a wizard, cleric, rogue, and fighter. They're non-situational permanent items that are always on, pretty much everything else in a slot depends on the build. Everyone can use more attack, defense, and saves. Mostly.


A solution that I see, especially at higher levels, is items that are built with the other components in them. The easiest example is Robe of the Archmagi, but there are others, you just need to dig for them.


For my home games I usually permit dual purpose belts/headbands/cloaks

After trying various homebrew systems, the one that worked wonders for me but required a whole lot of planning was:

Players were getting FAR less loot, but at certain levels they were getting free stat boosts to put in the stat of their choice, and resistance bonus to sv throw.

I think the progress was like:
Lvl5: +2(cap+2)
Lvl7: +2(cap+2)
Lvl10: +2(cap+4)
Lvl12: +2/+2 (cap+4)
Lvl14: +2/+2 (cap+6)

And:
Lvl3: +1 NAC/def/resist
Lvl4: +1 (cap+1)
Lvl5: +1 cap+2
Lvl7: +1 cap+2
Lvl9: +1 cap +3
Lvl12: +1/+1 cap +4
Lvl15: +1/+1 cap +5

Or something similar, can't recall exact numbers


There's a ton because not all games have magic shops. A lot of games involve DMs just rolling for one random magical item (per PC) in a dungeon and that's it. The vast amount of magic items available in the rules expands the random factor for that kind of low magic setting.

Sczarni

@OP

While it might be true to what you say, per default game rules, nothing is sure. Cities usually have written "2d6 minor magical items, 1d6 major magical items, etc." which they currently have. These are default game rules for settlements and if GM decides to enforce it, it can change game direction a lot. Players will have to buy whatever is currently available or sit on their cash hoard and wait, hoping to get lucky.

Grand Lodge

Malag wrote:

@OP

While it might be true to what you say, per default game rules, nothing is sure. Cities usually have written "2d6 minor magical items, 1d6 major magical items, etc." which they currently have. These are default game rules for settlements and if GM decides to enforce it, it can change game direction a lot. Players will have to buy whatever is currently available or sit on their cash hoard and wait, hoping to get lucky.

Or take crafting feats and simply break the WBL standards. I'd much rather have whatever I want freely available than have someone take crafting feats and then simply buy whatever I want for half price.

The Exchange

claudekennilol wrote:
Malag wrote:

@OP

While it might be true to what you say, per default game rules, nothing is sure. Cities usually have written "2d6 minor magical items, 1d6 major magical items, etc." which they currently have. These are default game rules for settlements and if GM decides to enforce it, it can change game direction a lot. Players will have to buy whatever is currently available or sit on their cash hoard and wait, hoping to get lucky.

Or take crafting feats and simply break the WBL standards. I'd much rather have whatever I want freely available than have someone take crafting feats and then simply buy whatever I want for half price.

Which is exactly what the players do when the GM implements the true "magic items available" rule.....

Tell them ahead of time that magic stuff is gonna not be whatever they want from the book and watch how you suddenly have monks and sorcerers and classes that don't rely on magic items that much....

Sczarni

claudekennilol wrote:


Or take crafting feats and simply break the WBL standards. I'd much rather have whatever I want freely available than have someone take crafting feats and then simply buy whatever I want for half price.

While I can understand that, as I have seen it happen plenty of times, crafting items per Core Pathfinder rules is a bit flawed if I dare say so. PC's could in general get what they want through crafting, but GM should be a final judge if and when can they receive desired item.


My GM made it a mission to drop "interesting magic items". His loot drops would be full of interesting (but pricey) stuff, with the understanding that the items would sell for 1/10 of their base cost.

It livened things up because we got cool but unusual items, and it got rid of the "sell everything else to get a headband" mechanic that often arises.

Sczarni

RumpinRufus wrote:

My GM made it a mission to drop "interesting magic items". His loot drops would be full of interesting (but pricey) stuff, with the understanding that the items would sell for 1/10 of their base cost.

It livened things up because we got cool but unusual items, and it got rid of the "sell everything else to get a headband" mechanic that often arises.

This seems interesting. Do you know how did he solve the WBL issue? The party would obviously posses less gold in the end, meaning, they would be able to buy consumables less often.


I do my best to let the party know that Optimization is not necessary. I think this is key, if the players believe that if they do not have the best AC, the best SAVES and the best DAMAGE that they will absolutely LOSE, then they will ignore all fun items merely to ensure basic survival.
When a player is too focused on the basic necessities they lose out on other aspects.

I make sure my players know they can use unique items, that they won't necessarily die without max AC, max Saves and max Damage.

I also like to give my players slotless items that take the place of SOME of the big 6, baubles that can be carried for limited bonuses, and since the bonuses don't stack, they end up leaving at least some of the big 6 behind (not all, as that screws with WBL too much).

I also give them access to less common items, and consumables in place of gold.

Silver Crusade

VampByDay wrote:


So does that mean my, say, arcane trickster can't have Bracers of Falcon's aim (giving him a bonus to ranged attacks, including ray attacks, as well as a bonus to perception to find traps) without being gimped because he 'needs' bracers of armor? I mean, I guess he could get a Haramaki, but the point I'm trying to make stands. There are some cool items out there, but apparently players are never expected to get them because they 'need' the main six. So while glamoured armor would be great for a rogue to do some infiltrating by posing as an enemy guard, nope, he can never have it because the +2 bonus is too precious to waste on non-plus-to-AC bonuses.

Honestly, buy what you want to make your character flavorful. It's your character, RP him the way you want. You don't have to optimize your build to have fun, just be aware of your limitations and try to avoid situations where you're disadvantaged.


Malag wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:

My GM made it a mission to drop "interesting magic items". His loot drops would be full of interesting (but pricey) stuff, with the understanding that the items would sell for 1/10 of their base cost.

It livened things up because we got cool but unusual items, and it got rid of the "sell everything else to get a headband" mechanic that often arises.

This seems interesting. Do you know how did he solve the WBL issue? The party would obviously posses less gold in the end, meaning, they would be able to buy consumables less often.

He basically just did away with WBL, we tended to be over. He just balanced the encounters accordingly instead of relying on CR.


Pathfinder needs a 4e-style Inherent Bonus system. Fortunately, Mythic Evil Lincoln has created an excellent one, and operating under the assumption he won't object to me linking it ...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I1vBz2hNzUPVLW02nUcVYt4mg2Qi2Ga8u8kcYmK zmOI

Edit: Not sure what's up with that random space between the K and z, but it shouldn't be there. It's not there when I did this edit ...


Zhayne, that's a forum feature intended to stop spam links, I believe. You can get around it by using the url tag:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I1vBz2hNzUPVLW02nUcVYt4mg2Qi2Ga8u8kcYmK zmOI


I usually house-rule that the more boring 4 out of the big 6 (Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Stat Boosters) can exceptionally be added to an item without the extra 50%.
I'd like to do the same for weapons and armors but it's not as easy to balance.

Scarab Sages

Slime wrote:

I usually house-rule that the more boring 4 out of the big 6 (Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Stat Boosters) can exceptionally be added to an item without the extra 50%.

I'd like to do the same for weapons and armors but it's not as easy to balance.

I like that, it's kind of what 4th edition did. ALL cloaks granted a bonus to saves, but they could also grant certain other abilities, like being a lessened handy haversack, or granting fire resist or something like that.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

@VampByDay: Remember, most advice on the messageboards is from strangers who don't know all the details, houserules, idiosyncrasies, and so forth of the recipient's games. That is, I can't tell you what would be a great choice for your character in the full context of a home game I'm not a part of; I can only give you advice based on "default" Pathfinder, based on what's in the books.

And what's in the books assumes you're going to have all those +X items; monsters' attack bonuses and hit points and save DCs and so forth factor that into the math. (And they kind of have to; if the math assumed you didn't have those, then if a PC gathered them all up, they'd be seriously hard to threaten without obliterating the rest of the party.)

This issue that you've encountered (that by default the game pushes players to take the same +X items over more "interesting" options) is one of the big issues with the Pathfinder system. Such a big issue, in fact, that if you search the boards you'll find all kinds of houserules or other suggestions to get rid of it: careful cherry-picking of monsters, tweaking monster stats, making the "+X" bonus a side-effect on other items so you can have both, or even getting rid of those items entirely and handing out their bonuses as level-based effects. Heck, I'm writing a whole new d20 system that completely removes gear's role in character progression. Find the solution that suits your table. :)

See also: Treadmill, Christmas Tree Effect, Fate Worse Than Death

Scarab Sages

claudekennilol wrote:


Or take crafting feats and simply break the WBL standards. I'd much rather have whatever I want freely available than have someone take crafting feats and then simply buy whatever I want for half price.

I kind of thought that it would be a big deal as well when I first started, but it turns out that it works out just fine. You just have to remember a few things:

1) PCs have to craft items out of their 'out of pocket' wealth. Most DMs don't give their PCs a giant pile o change and tell them to go to town. They get magic items that they may (or may not) be able/willing to use, and SOME gold. They can sell those items for 1/2 cost, which just so happens to be the amount they can build their items for. So basically, they sell stuff for 1/2 money and get stuff for 1/2 money, so the WBL is unaffected in essence.

2) Crafting items requires time, a day for every 1000GP worth of the MARKET price. So if you put your PCs under even a minor time crunch, it quickly becomes obsolete. Sure, you can take a month off to craft everyone in your party +2 weapons, but by the time you're done, the cultists have taken over the down, killed all the townsfolk, summoned their demon overlord, and are currently dancing on the corpses of their human sacrifices.

3) PCs tend to gimp themselves. Unless they are the best optimizers ever, they will tend to get distracted by the shiny and not make the most of what they have. I once had a wizard with craft wondrous, who was not a stupid player by any stretch of the imagination, decide randomly to craft a hat of disguise. He had no ranks in bluff, no ranks in disguise, and didn't give it to the party Shadowdancer (who did.) He just thought that was best use of his resources.

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