Here is why we need a TWO WEEK delay, Goblinworks!


Pathfinder Online

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Grand Lodge

@Calis

I feel quite the same way and I had higher hopes for the product at this point but up til recently I never really had any idea how many people are working on the game compared to ANY other AAA type title, and the low early production values are a consequence of starting wholly from scratch, coupled with how very few programmers they actually have at their command.

As RD has said, what we are seeing now is the kind of Alpha gameplay most games would see when they are still 2 years out from release, which to the GW timeframe is pretty close. We are playing Legos with a hand carved set of prototypes right now, not the production models.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

They must be doing something good though, I am a total carebear, yet I was pretty pissed to find that some Mining company had taken all of Callambea's Towers, just coz. I guess Trespassing is high on the list of "Evil Acts that Rustles People's Jimmies". So I think they are on the right track with the land-owner thing. :)

I think we are going to see some serious Wars in this game, if it all comes together.

They could use like 20 more coders though. I think that is what I am afraid of most: that the engine won't be able to do all those wonderfull things they are planning and the game will succumb to constant bugs before it gets a chance to shine.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

@Calis

I feel quite the same way and I had higher hopes for the product at this point but up til recently I never really had any idea how many people are working on the game compared to ANY other AAA type title, and the low early production values are a consequence of starting wholly from scratch, coupled with how very few programmers they actually have at their command.

As RD has said, what we are seeing now is the kind of Alpha gameplay most games would see when they are still 2 years out from release, which to the GW timeframe is pretty close. We are playing Legos with a hand carved set of prototypes right now, not the production models.

"Other" AAA title? PFO isn't AAA.

Goblin Squad Member

Who is rating the game in this instance? An extreme fan might give it the "AAA" despite all of the work that still needs doing... ;)

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
"Other" AAA title? PFO isn't AAA.

In current state I'd say we are playing Tee-ball.

Grand Lodge

DeciusBrutus wrote:
"Other" AAA title? PFO isn't AAA.

Quite true, though I wasn't exactly trying to say it was.

I think the game has potential to get there in time, just as long as they can get a good steady source of income and can afford to hire more programmers.

On the other hand, games like TF2 can set a great precedent with a small team of programmers gradually improving and adding elements to the game over the course of it's life. I think things like the Community Workshop would be an AWESOME way for them to save time and money, by getting the players to make the very content the want in the game, pending approval of course.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I thought that AAA in game design referred to the production methodology; large teams working very hard to perfect small areas each.

The size of the "animations" team in some games is larger than all of Goblinworks.


So...very...torn...

I agree that teleporting and other big bugs need to be fixed before EE, but I'm hopeful these are on the short list for the next update. To me, those are the only outright game breakers. Settlement/Company UI, content/economics, AH, and so on aren't such a big deal to me out of the gate. Now, there are a lot of movers and shakers out there who differ, I understand. I think moving out WoT relative to fixing other stuff would be perfectly acceptable.

So, I'm fine waiting for the bugs (but I hope we won't have to). However, I'd just like to start earning some real xp. Three weeks in and I almost know what I'm doing...almost.

Goblin Squad Member

The teleport/roll back issue is the biggest concern. If they fix that, then launch it. If not or they decide to wait, wait till the new year.


Tyncale wrote:
They must be doing something good though, I am a total carebear, yet I was pretty pissed to find that some Mining company had taken all of Callambea's Towers, just coz.

That was probably us, spreading capitalism to the surrounding region. I hope you aren't too perturbed, was nothing personal after-all, just business!

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Tyncale wrote:
They must be doing something good though, I am a total carebear, yet I was pretty pissed to find that some Mining company had taken all of Callambea's Towers, just coz.
That was probably us, spreading capitalism to the surrounding region. I hope you aren't too perturbed, was nothing personal after-all, just business!

LoL, you guy are not in a settlement atm right? (looked that way last time I passed one of your towers)

@Tynical, if the above is true, you can just take it at any time.

Goblin Squad Member

"AAA (Gaming Industry) Wikipedia wrote:

AAA is not an acronym, but a grading scale, but some like to see it as an acronym to more simply show what attributes a game uses.

One common way of perceived AAA as an acronym is like so, each "A" has a meaning regarding an overall quality:

One "A" is given to games that are considered to be successful (critics or reviewers give it a perfect, or almost perfect score).

Two "As" are used when a game brings "innovative Gameplay" (a gaming characteristic so unique that differentiate the game from all the rest).

"AAA" defines "Financial Success" (game sales that generate a huge profit). A title consider to be AAA is therefore a high quality game and its expected to be among the year’s bestsellers.

Based on this, can we honestly expect PFO to reach even "A"?

Is there anything within their wish list of proposed features that would be considered "Innovative Gameplay" that it is "unique" among all of the rest?

Will it ever be a year's best seller, along with the first and second "A's" to achieve the third AAA rating?

Obviously, PFO will not fair well with using this rating system. To be fair, most never will, and those that have achieved it, had met the requirements before the AAA rating was created. They are there by virtue of hindsight. Only two games hold the distinction: World of Warcraft and EvE Online.

Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Tyncale wrote:
They must be doing something good though, I am a total carebear, yet I was pretty pissed to find that some Mining company had taken all of Callambea's Towers, just coz.
That was probably us, spreading capitalism to the surrounding region. I hope you aren't too perturbed, was nothing personal after-all, just business!

LoL, you guy are not in a settlement atm right? (looked that way last time I passed one of your towers)

@Tynical, if the above is true, you can just take it at any time.

I might just do that.... I hope I won't get chased down by an angry mob of Dwarves with Picks though. :) Oh well, it is not very important right now.

As for now, I still have my one tower with the River Kingdoms Trade Coalition, only need to ally to Callambea. I hope that all works now.

Goblin Squad Member

I really feel that PvP issues can wait - the bugs are certainly a priority, but with the economy needing to be built, easy harvesting and crafting are critical.

The AH needs some signifagant overhaul to make it less irksome to find anything at all.

Social aspects of recruiting need to be put in as game functions - readable posts in the game - players have incentive to join groups, but no mechanics or way to learn about groups INSIDE the game.


Never angry - if we're chasing you, it's only to tell you about our great prices on fancy gemstones! All concluded deals are considered terminal.

Goblin Squad Member

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
Never angry - if we're chasing you, it's only to tell you about our great prices on fancy gemstones! All concluded deals are considered terminal.

Haha, I can picture it now. Still scary, but not lethal. :D


Terminal? Not sure, but that sounds a bit deadly.

Sass

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Obviously, PFO will not fair well with using this rating system. To be fair, most never will, and those that have achieved it, had met the requirements before the AAA rating was created. They are there by virtue of hindsight. Only two games hold the distinction: World of Warcraft and EvE Online.

I'd give it to Runecape as well. It's more a game for younger players but it does have a massive following and is really unlike anything else on the market.

I would hesitate to say it's a great game but it was definitely hugely successful.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I really like the idea of giving +2 items a chance to produce +4/+5, and giving +1 items a small chance.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Using that rating system, most AAA games aren't AA games. Lots of games are huge financial successes without being innovative at all (Assassins' Creed being several).

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I would say that formation combat would be unique and innovative. It's probably a few years away, though.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Send a spy to Russia. LIF has basic formation combat working, I believe.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:
Send a spy to Russia. LIF has basic formation combat working, I believe.

Huh. Point withdrawn.

CEO, Goblinworks

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Just FYI, in the industry, "AAA" means "a budget at the top end of what similar games spend on development. It doesn't have anything to do with quality ratings. There are many "failed" AAA game that were just not good.

So the "top end" for MMOs today is between $100 million and $200 million, compared with Pathfinder Online at about $5 million.

Goblin Squad Member

Quick, someone give Ryan Dancey more peanuts......just throw them. More buckets now!

:)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Just FYI, in the industry, "AAA" means "a budget at the top end of what similar games spend on development. It doesn't have anything to do with quality ratings. There are many "failed" AAA game that were just not good.

So the "top end" for MMOs today is between $100 million and $200 million, compared with Pathfinder Online at about $5 million.

That's the definition I'm familiar with.

Goblin Squad Member

Atheory wrote:

Quick, someone give Ryan Dancey more peanuts......just throw them. More buckets now!

:)

Very funny, you just wait till EE whippersnapper, they'll be working for Almonds!

Goblin Squad Member

To be honest I find the game playable 99% of the time but that is probably for two reasons.

Firstly I play during the week as well as weekends and secondly I am in the Aussie Time Zone.

I am also fortunate in that whilst I am very busy (I currently have both full time work in systems/network management and a full time law degree) I am relatively free to swap my play times around so if PFO is being a pain in the butt I just go play EVE, or go study or actually do some housework and log back in some other time.

I can understand how someone that only has limited playtime must find it very frustrating if the one time a week they can play the servers are teleporting them everywhere.

I am also fortunate that if I somehow lose a +2 heavy armor or +2 longsword in server weirdness it only takes me a short time to make a replacement and maybe a spare. For players who are not online much losing their only copies of good gear must be exceptionally annoying.

I suppose what I am saying is personally I find the game quite playable and get more frustrated at lack of people to interact with (a lot of players seem to be sitting out alpha awaiting EE) however from a MVP point of view the game is not ready because for those people who are only able to login during US weekend primetime the game is simply not stable at all.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Just FYI, in the industry, "AAA" means "a budget at the top end of what similar games spend on development. It doesn't have anything to do with quality ratings. There are many "failed" AAA game that were just not good.

So the "top end" for MMOs today is between $100 million and $200 million, compared with Pathfinder Online at about $5 million.

Quote:
A Triple A game (AAA) are games that we're developed with a significantly large budget. [u]The game generally reviews well, since the developers put a lot of emphasis in Gameplay, Presentation, Story, Graphics, and / or Online[/u]. Acceptable Audio, Pacing, Set pieces and Thrills must be available as well. That is the foundation of a Triple A game, while this next part is highly subjective among gamers. The games generally goes on to review well scoring 8+/10 and averaging a score of 88+/100 on metacritic. The game generally receive large to massive amounts of hype and gaming websites, and goes on to sale 1+ million copies.

Budget is a partial cause for the rating, but a rating system it is. To say it is all about budget is disingenuous.

Quote:

What Are AAA Titles?

Question:

What are AAA titles?
Short answer:
High-quality games with high budget.

Longer answer:
There is a debate that takes into considering several aspects that AAA titles should have. Some of the most common qualities that AAA titles should have (according to some experts) are:
- High-quality
- Broad market
- High sales
- Large teams
- Big budget
- Polished audio-visual direction
- Perfect technical and artistic execution
- Playable & fully enjoyable within the first five minutes of play
- Exhaustively tested
- Bug free
- Great usability
- Continous, balanced entertainment from beginning to end
- Great graphical user interface
- First place in the markets, and great marketing
- Hype

Goblin Squad Member

Whom are you quoting, Bluddwolf?

Goblin Squad Member

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There are a few items on that list including " Playable & fully enjoyable within the first five minutes of play ". "Broad market " and " Set pieces and Thrills" which flag a game to me as something to avoid at all costs.

But each to their own, my preferred gaming style is not for everyone.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

They must be doing something good though, I am a total carebear, yet I was pretty pissed to find that some Mining company had taken all of Callambea's Towers, just coz. I guess Trespassing is high on the list of "Evil Acts that Rustles People's Jimmies". So I think they are on the right track with the land-owner thing. :)

I think we are going to see some serious Wars in this game, if it all comes together.

They could use like 20 more coders though. I think that is what I am afraid of most: that the engine won't be able to do all those wonderfull things they are planning and the game will succumb to constant bugs before it gets a chance to shine.

Please see my posts here. If it was truly business (since I have no reason to believe it was personal, I assume it was indeed business), then Allegiant Gemstone Co. didn't take your Towers "just coz"; they took your Towers because somebody paid them for the job. The only thing I find surprising is the fact that someone was willing to hire a mercenary force during Alpha. Then again, what else is there to spend money on in Alpha?

Goblin Squad Member

I presumed it was because they were in the right area. If a group is basing out of Rathglenn, the number of readily accessible towers is quite limited. A group that enjoys PvP as much as Allegiant seems to has a powerful incentive to surround themselves with 24 hour windows.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I presumed it was because they were in the right area. If a group is basing out of Rathglenn, the number of readily accessible towers is quite limited. A group that enjoys PvP as much as Allegiant seems to has a powerful incentive to surround themselves with 24 hour windows.

Allegiant declared that the attack on Callambea was a business matter.

Doc || Allegiant Gemstone Co. wrote:
That was probably us, spreading capitalism to the surrounding region. I hope you aren't too perturbed, was nothing personal after-all, just business!

If there weren't a contract, I suspect that wording would have been different. Maybe something along the lines of "...was nothing personal after-all, we just like 24 hour PVP windows."

Note: I have noting against Callambea or Allegiant. I just find it fascinating that mercenary contracts are already being completed.

Goblin Squad Member

I find it hard to believe that anyone would pay for something in alpha. On the other hand, for a group that is pouring large-scale resources into testing high-end crafting, it's not like the money or products are good for anything else when we hit EE, so it's a real possibility. I guess demoralizing your opponents in Alpha isn't likely to be a bad thing.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
I find it hard to believe that anyone would pay for something in alpha. On the other hand, for a group that is pouring large-scale resources into testing high-end crafting, it's not like the money or products are good for anything else when we hit EE, so it's a real possibility. I guess demoralizing your opponents in Alpha isn't likely to be a bad thing.

What else do you spend your money on in Alpha ? Its not like there was anything in the AH worth buying. My main account acquired 20,000c or more without really trying and there really was nothing to spend it on.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Whom are you quoting, Bluddwolf?

There are a number of sources on the internet that have a definition of AAA Games.

The first I used was Wikipedia. The second was GameDev.net or GameProducer.net (I forget).

There was perhaps only one, and it was the briefest one that mentioned only budget.

The only one that I found was this:

About Money wrote:

Definition:

A AAA game, or pronounced "triple-A game", is generally a title developed by a large studio, funded by a massive budget.

These games will have a marketing budget in the multiple-millions of dollars, and are planned to earn out in excess of one million titles sold. Investors/publishers expect a multiple-of-cost return on their investment. In order to recoup general development costs, publishers will generally produce the title for the major platforms (currently Xbox 360, PS3, and PC) to maximize profits, unless it is a console exclusive, in which case the console maker will pay for exclusivity to offset the loss of potential profit to the developer.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Using that rating system, most AAA games aren't AA games. Lots of games are huge financial successes without being innovative at all (Assassins' Creed being several).

I seperate innovators from imitators on the criteria of "Did they create a unique gaming experience I can't find in another game released before it?"

While all AC titles after the first are just prettier versions with some light updates, can you name a game pre-dating the first that delivers an experience so similar you would say it's practically the same gaming experience?

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