Skald [Spell Warrior] & Rage powers


Rules Questions


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so, at first glance I thought the spell warrior simply didn't get any, but not only are they not mentioned of being replaced, it also recommends certain rage powers.

So, I looked up rage powers under Skald

Quote:


At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a skald learns a rage power that affects the skald and any allies under the influence of his inspired rage.

am I correct that this seems to imply the rage powers are constant, as only allies need the inspired rage to gain their benefit? (and might be the reasons 1/rage powers are denied?)

since, Spell Warriors cannot inspire rage, how are they suppose to use the rage powers they gain if the "under the influence of his inspired rage" also applies to the Skald himself?


Enhance weapons song replaces it, so I would understand that you add rage powers to that song instead.


This is when you need to read it as

a skald learns a rage power that affects the skald under the influence of his inspired rage.

a skald learns a rage power that affects any allies under the influence of his inspired rage.

So it's only affecting the skald when he's under his inspired rage.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Fearspect wrote:
Enhance weapons song replaces it, so I would understand that you add rage powers to that song instead.

enhance weapons effects items not people. you can use it to enhance several of your weapons or both sides of a double weapon that you're using.

Sczarni

By raw, it makes the rage powers useless unless you have a way to fly into rage (such as a level of barbarian or the spell rage.

I expect it get clarified soon though.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:

This is when you need to read it as

a skald learns a rage power that affects the skald under the influence of his inspired rage.

a skald learns a rage power that affects any allies under the influence of his inspired rage.

So it's only affecting the skald when he's under his inspired rage.

so how does that react with the overarching question of, what do the rage powers get used for, since I still gain them, and it still suggests rage powers for me to get?

I really just want to know how I should house rule this, and i would like to know what is RAI before that.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Carla the Profane wrote:

By raw, it makes the rage powers useless unless you have a way to fly into rage (such as a level of barbarian or the spell rage.

I expect it get clarified soon though.

so... it basically NEEDS at least a level dip of bloodrager or barbarian?


or use the spell rage on yourself, that might do it too

Sczarni

Bandw2 wrote:
Carla the Profane wrote:

By raw, it makes the rage powers useless unless you have a way to fly into rage (such as a level of barbarian or the spell rage.

I expect it get clarified soon though.

so... it basically NEEDS at least a level dip of bloodrager or barbarian?

Either that (which seems odd) or its an overlooked mistake in the book. Untill then, house rule it as you please.

I would just let the player and his allies use the rage powers as that seems to be intended, albeit very powerful.


the enhanced weapons song indeed replaces the inspired rage song.
rage powers are in effect when your weapons are enhanced/during that performance, but only to wielders of enhanced weapons.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Pendagast wrote:

the enhanced weapons song indeed replaces the inspired rage song.

rage powers are in effect when your weapons are enhanced/during that performance, but only to wielders of enhanced weapons.

that doesn't make sense and isn't supported in the rules. :/


ALL of a skald's performances are Raging songs. ONE of them is called inspired rage.

The different ranging songs have different effects.

Weapon Song (Su): A spell warrior gains the following raging song, allowing him to grant his ally’s weapons enhancement bonuses and special powers…..This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song.

It replaces the inspired rage, with this particular ability, so rather than raising str and con, you get weapon bonuses… anything that modifies inspire rage, modifies it's replacement.

You expect new and amazing clarifications different from that?
It seems clear that was the intent, and not the intent to replace class abilities to choose rage powers was meant to be replaced by something else, and that whole part was somehow accidentally omitted?

It makes perfect sense.

you can rage as per norm and have intimidating glare, or you can weapon song, and have intimidating glare; for example…whats the big difference?

ALL the skalds songs are called raging songs, only one of them works similar to the barbarian rage.

Grand Lodge

Except that Inspired Rage is the only raging song that gives use of Rage Powers, and Weapon Song makes no mention of them. No other Raging Song lets you use Rage Powers.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Jeff Merola wrote:
Except that Inspired Rage is the only raging song that gives use of Rage Powers, and Weapon Song makes no mention of them. No other Raging Song lets you use Rage Powers.

basically this


Jeff Merola wrote:
Except that Inspired Rage is the only raging song that gives use of Rage Powers, and Weapon Song makes no mention of them. No other Raging Song lets you use Rage Powers.

as stated above, weapon song replaces inspired rage, they did nothing to change the archetype further, so any clarification will be similar to already stated.

Grand Lodge

Pendagast wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
Except that Inspired Rage is the only raging song that gives use of Rage Powers, and Weapon Song makes no mention of them. No other Raging Song lets you use Rage Powers.
as stated above, weapon song replaces inspired rage, they did nothing to change the archetype further, so any clarification will be similar to already stated.

Except that's not how archetypes work at all. If an ability replaces another, it doesn't use any of the base's rules unless it explicitly says it does.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

in fact this might be the first time a archetype replaces a class ability that another class ability uses.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hah. Ha. That's pretty funny.

There's quite a bit of a bad track record with that. It's tough to catch every instance of ability dependencies, so no complaints. But certainly not the first time and some older examples still haven't been fixed.

I believe several Ranger archetypes replace Favored Terrain but not class abilities that require it (Camouflage and HiPS if I recall)


Bandw2 wrote:
in fact this might be the first time a archetype replaces a class ability that another class ability uses.

well technically, it's an archetype, that replaces a class ability that is actually a replacement of a class ability (the bards performance)

Sczarni

Pendagast wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
in fact this might be the first time a archetype replaces a class ability that another class ability uses.
well technically, it's an archetype, that replaces a class ability that is actually a replacement of a class ability (the bards performance)

...Which still counts as a bardic performance.

`When starting an inspired rage` in the skald rage power description and `This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song.` in the enhance weapons description are the key wordings here.


Carla the Profane wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
in fact this might be the first time a archetype replaces a class ability that another class ability uses.
well technically, it's an archetype, that replaces a class ability that is actually a replacement of a class ability (the bards performance)

...Which still counts as a bardic performance.

`When starting an inspired rage` in the skald rage power description and `This ability replaces the inspired rage raging song.` in the enhance weapons description are the key wordings here.

yes, thats my reasoning.

It's still a bardic performance, and enhanced/effected by things that effect bardic performance (i.e. to can take the feat extra performance, but not extra rage) in the case of the straight skald, rage powers effect and work with inspired rage, although it is a performance NOT an actual rage (as it doesn't have the fatigue of a normal rage either).
Once it changes to weapon song with the archetype, ALL the other things that STILL effected it before, effect it now as well…. (i.e. extra performances and rage powers)

so the ONLY thing that changes in this case, is how this particular song, effects rules mechanics… in which case, instead of giving strength and con bonuses… it gives weapon enhancements.
Thats the only thing that changes, it's still a raging song, which still gets effected by feats that effect bardic performance and according the the class features of skald… still get rage powers added to them.

Grand Lodge

Pendagast, only Inspired Rage gives Rage Powers. The fact that Enhance Weapons is a raging song is completely irrelevant, as the others don't give access to Rage Powers when you're using them.

Enhance Weapons states that it replaces Inspired Rage and makes no mention of Rage Powers or keeping any part of Inspired Rage's rules. Therefore none of Inspired Rage's normal rules (or things that normally interact specifically with Inspired Rage) matter.


It lists suggestions at the end of the archetype for Pete's sake.
Instead of rage ability enhancement via morale bonuses you get weapon enhancing, everything else remains unchanged.
If it didn't allow rage powers the description wouldn't come under the heading rage song.

Grand Lodge

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Ooze licker wrote:

It lists suggestions at the end of the archetype for Pete's sake.

Instead of rage ability enhancement via morale bonuses you get weapon enhancing, everything else remains unchanged.
If it didn't allow rage powers the description wouldn't come under the heading rage song.

Reread the base Skald. All of their songs are called Raging Songs, but only Inspired Rage grants Rage Powers. And "it lists suggestions" is not any indicator of what the archetype can or cannot do.

For instance, the Totem Warrior Archetype for the Barbarian lists suggested rage powers and that archetype literally does nothing.

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