PFS Monk (Dragon Style) - workable?


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hi, I recently decided to try a monk in Pathfinder Society.

No level dipping
Basic concept of hitting harder.

Human
Archetype: Qinggoing to pick up barkskin
Favored Class Bonus: 1/4 Ki.
ST 15 DX 12 CN 14 IN 10 WS 16 CH 08
07 02 05 -- 10 -2
+R +2

ST 17 DX 12 CN 12 IN 10 WS 16 CH 08

So far my first pass came out like this:

level progression:

01-IUAS, Wis AC Bonus Feat: Toughness
02-Evasion Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes or Imp Grapple
03-Move+10 Feat: Dragon Style (req. 3 ranks acrobatics)
04-Ki Pool (magic). Slow Fall 20ft (swap for Barkskin)
05-High Jump. Purity of Body (immunity to disease). Feat: Dragon Ferocity (req 5 ranks acro, stunning fist)
06-Slow Fall 30ft Bonus Feat: Deflect Arrow or Dodge?
07-Ki Pool (cold iron/silver). Wholeness of Body Feat: Power Attack
08-Slow Fall 40ft
09-Imp Evasion
10-Ki Pool (lawful). Slow fall 50ft Bonus Feat: Improved Critical (unarmed)
11-Diamond Body Feat:
12-Abundant Step. Slow Fall 60ft

Combat Gear choices:
Headband of Wis
Belt of Str
Amulet of Mighty Fists

I'm run into the whiff-factor of moving into position and getting a single 2/3 BAB attack. Plus I'm having trouble getting his AC up to a reasonable level. So I decided to come here for advice and help.

Some thoughts:
Dual talent human?
Drop Power Attack entirely (Flurry-2 plus PA penalty icky?) replace with?
Other Gear recommendations?
How to boost his AC a bit?
AC of 10+1(dex)+3(ws)=14 starting AC for melee until level 3 sounds very meh. Barkskin only adds 3 and that makes him all of AC 17 at 3rd.

Is this idea workable?
What would you do to make him more PFS-friendly?

Advice and ideas welcome.


Well... you can't even gain barkskin until level 4 actually, since you don't have anything to replace for it until level 4 and you need ki to use it anyway.

Also, you're stats aren't adding up correctly.
15 12 12 10 16 8
7+2+2+0+10-2 = 19
I'd recommend just tossing 1 more charisma and adding more con (as the 2 extra con might protect you against 1 hit kills compared to the dex)
15 12 14 10 16 7
7+2+5+0+10-4= 20

it's really hard to buff this guy up, I'll try some other ideas for you.

maybe a
16 14 13 7 16 7 (+2 to dex)
16 16 13 7 16 7

this raises your ac by 2, and you should probably take the dodge bonus feat (but improved grappling and combat reflexes are always nice)

would work better, I personally hate dumping, but to do something well you have to do some sacrifice.

the main benefit of dragon style is the difficult terrain part. doing 1.5 damage on one hit per round is not worth optimizing, especially considering how powerful flurry is and the better damage you can get from things like pummeling style, boar style, and jabbing style.

EDITED with more detail and review


stat array: S17 D14 C14 I10 W14 CH8
Traits - dangerously curious (+1 umd, umd is a class skill), mizu ki hikari rebel (+1 damage unarmed)

Take UMD every level. Get a wand of mage armor with prestige points. If playing with a mage, have him cast it on you. If not, use your umd skill and don't roll a 1. You may want to buy 2 wands of mage armor to avoid that.


Dual Talent: 16/18, 12, 14, 10, 14/16, 8 or something like that might work better for you; it didn't look like you even picked up two starting feats anyhow with Human. Later on Weapon Focus and Furious Focus are kind of boring feats, but a Monk can use the help... speaking of boring, bonus Dodge is free +1AC.

Shadow Lodge

Might consider a few archetypes on top of Qinggong, as Qinggong stacks with everything, and with the rest, you can pretty much never need a class feature you don't want. I recommend one of the following:

  • Drunken Master gives you the option to get a bunch of extra ki points, by simply buying alcohol. I believe there is a magical Item (Horn of Drinking Valor or something), that gives you infinite alcohol, so you are only limited by how much you can drink before you suffer from problems (1+double Con modifier, IIRC).
  • Ki Mystic also gives you a bunch of extra ki points, but has less of a cash/Con investment, and means that if you put 1 point in each knowledge skill, you can probably get a pretty nice bonus to all of them. Also gives some nice powers for party buffing(specifically, rerolls), which can help your allies.
  • Monk of the Sacred Mountain gives you bonus feat Toughness and +1 AC at second level, which would save you a feat you were going to take and help with your AC problem. Stacks with Barkskin. Also gives you some neat defensive buffs and DR.
  • Flowing Monk gives again a little bit of AC, and then it also gives some nice control abilities that can help you work enemies into flank with allies and a defensive ability that can help you soak up more hits.
  • Sohei gives you the best damage, giving a scaling bonus to attack and damage and access to gloves of dueling, which means that you can eliminate that flurry penalty. Also gives a huge initiative buff and lets you flurry in light armor making you less MAD.
As far as your stats go, I'd personally take Dual-Talent Human and put the +2 into Con if you take Monk of the Sacred Mountain(double up on those hitpoints). 12 isn't very good for anyone who will be up in melee in PFS, especially Monks if you have a (relatively) low AC.

For items, consider buying a Pearl of Power on the off chance someone in the party can cast Mage Armor(you offer it to them each day so they have an extra slot to cast on you), and stock up on potions of it. Also, the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier is one thing you want at around levels 5-9 to get you the +1AC and the ability to ignore 1 crit/day(one of the best magic items for its price IMO).


Dual talent human, switch str and wis on level 1 (and up them to str 18 and wis 17 with versatilie human), power attack, and Dodge at level 1, combat reflexes or deflect arrows at level 2, mobility or the one you ditent Pick at 6, by 7 you will know if hit points or attack bonus it what you need and can Pick weapon focus or toughness( and if both is on a good place you can get step up or somthing like it) at nine punishment kick or one of those feats that monks get more uses out of, 10 Medusa's wrath,11 improved crit.
I think you change slowfall at all levels if you get bark skinn at level 4 but i May be wrong but then you at least delay its progression by 3 levels.
I think this guy can work as a good front liner. Pick the fates favored trait and get a jingasa of the fortunate soldier when you start to look for +2 items. Second trait could be reactionary since your lowish dex is gonna hurt initiativ a bit.


The Sohei's ability to use Brawling armor and Weapon Training is extremely useful; at level 6 you're give up a slightly larger damage die for at least +3 to attack and damage. Since you can't take things like Power Attack or Focus at level 1, Dual Talent really is good stuff whatever you put it in - and you really want to start out with 18 strength.


Dual Talent Human is right. Monks don't get that many good things out of talents but they want their good attributes so hard. STR/WIS or STR/DEX are both good options.

A warning about STR/WIS: Stunning Fist is gonna whiff for you all the time whether you want it or not, unless you are stacking WIS like mad, in which case you aren't going to have much attack.
Go Martial Artist for better DC and better feats.

As a Monk, you value attack more than damage so I wouldn't go Power Attack so early I think. There's quite a few things you can replace it with. You want to go PA later on when you have enough magic items to boost your attack.

Anyway, here's a build for Martial Artist, at level 5:

Spoiler:
Drakey
Male Human monk 5 Archetypes Martial Artist,
CN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4, Senses Perception +12
=================================================
DEFENSE
=================================================
AC 18, touch 18, flat-footed 15 (+2 Dex, +1 dodge, )
hp 32 ((5d8)+5)
Fort +5, Ref +6, Will +8
Defensive Abilities evasion,
=================================================
OFFENSE
=================================================
Speed 40 ft., Fast Movement, High Jump
Melee flurry of blows +8/+8 (1d8+6)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist,

=================================================
STATISTICS
=================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 8,
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 25
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Dragon Style, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike), Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike)
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +12, Perception +12, Stealth +10,
Traits Adopted, Bullied, Warrior of Old,
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus, alignment, dual talent, exploit weakness, extreme endurance, fast movement, high jump, maneuver training, martial arts master, pain points, weapon and armor proficiency,
Combat Gear
Other Gear flurry of blows, 0.0 gp
=================================================
SPECIAL ABILITIES
=================================================
AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored and unencumbered, you add +5 to your AC and your CMD.

Adopted You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own.

Alignment A martial artist may be of any alignment.

Bullied You were bullied often as a child, and you are now constantly ready to defend yourself with your fists when an enemy comes near.

Dual Talent Some humans are uniquely skilled at maximizing their natural gifts. These humans pick two ability scores and gain a +2 racial bonus in each of those scores. This racial trait replaces the +2 bonus to any one ability score, the bonus feat, and the skilled traits.

Evasion (Ex) You can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks.

Exploit Weakness (Ex) At 4th level, as a swift action, a martial artist can observe a creature or object to find its weak point by making a Wisdom check and adding his monk level against a DC of 10 + the object's hardness or the target's CR. If the check succeeds, the martial artist gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls until the end of his turn, and any attacks he makes until the end of his turn ignore the creature or object's DR or hardness. A martial artist may instead use this ability as a swift action to analyze the movements and expressions of one creature within 30 feet, granting a bonus on Sense Motive checks and Reflex saves and a dodge bonus to AC against that opponent equal to 1/2 his monk level until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces ki pool.

Extreme Endurance (Ex) At 5th level, a martial artist gains immunity to fatigue. At 10th level, he also gains immunity to exhaustion. At 15th level, he gains immunity to stunning. At 20th level, he gains immunity to death effects and energy drain. This ability replaces purity of body, diamond body, and perfect self.

Fast Movement (Ex) You gain an enhancement bonus to your land speed.

Flurry of Blows (Ex) You can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

High Jump (Ex) You can adds +5 to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps.

Maneuver Training (Ex) You use your monk level in place of your base attack bonus when calculating your combat maneuver bonus.

Martial Arts Master (Ex) At 4th level, a martial artist may use his monk level to qualify for feats with a fighter level prerequisite when those feats are applied to unarmed strikes or weapons with the monk special quality. This ability replaces slow fall.

Pain Points (Ex) At 3rd level, a martial artist's advanced knowledge of humanoid anatomy grants a +1 bonus on critical hit confirmation rolls and increases the DC of his stunning fist and quivering palm by 1. This ability replaces still mind.

Stunning Fist (Ex) You gain Stunning Fist as a bonus feat.

Warrior of Old As a child, you put in long hours in combat drills, and though time has made this training a dim memory, you still have a knack for quickly responding to trouble. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Initiative checks.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency Monks are proficient with club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling. Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

This guy really really really really really really wants Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) or at least Stunning Fist Adept. He'd rather have Mantis Style but he'll take what he's got. Keep pumping STR and WIS hard.

Sohei is nice, gotta give it to them, but in my honest opinion, they wear out later in the game. I enjoy the Martial Artist more for the DR bypass and the bonus to attack rolls, that allows you to really use PA to its full advantage when you get Dragon's Ferocity.

While you don't get Barkskin, because you lost your Ki Pool, you can still use Exploit Weakness to gain +1/2 Monk levels to AC, which replaces it pretty well.


Yeah, it should be mentioned that a Sohei can't take Dragon Ferocity... kind of a pity once your strength really gets up there. Dragon Ferocity also allows progressive Elemental Fist (1d6 +1d6/5levels) without the prerequisites; 2d6 at 5 and 3d6 at 10 isn't amazing, but it beefs up a charge or standard attack fairly nicely.


BadBird wrote:
The Sohei's ability to use Brawling armor and Weapon Training is extremely useful; at level 6 you're give up a slightly larger damage die for at least +3 to attack and damage. Since you can't take things like Power Attack or Focus at level 1, Dual Talent really is good stuff whatever you put it in - and you really want to start out with 18 strength.

I was under the impression that monks counter as having full bab when flurrying and therefore could Pick PA at level 1 but only use it with flurry until level 2. If i an wrong in this? Some feat rearanfement is needed.


It should also be mentioned that at the moment dragon's ferocity does nothing.


The dev has aready said that it'll be changed to increase instead of add. so yes, for a few days up to a week it won't work, but it will work as intended.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Right no barkskin till 4th, I remembered and then forgot. Planned to use mage armor via wand after his first adventure.

Thanks for the tips folks I'll play around with it and see what I end up with.

Ah I didn't know about Dragon's Ferocity not working, I thought it was additive. All the more reason to wait for now :)

Silver Crusade

If you want wand use, go Half Elf with Arcane Training. This, combined with Qinggong, will make you very diverse.

You will lose the Human bonus feat (or extra +2 stat), a skill point per level, and your favored class bonus per level.

Half elf will gain you back low light vision and the ability to choose proficiency in one weapon. Sansetsukon perhaps?


Cap. Darling wrote:
BadBird wrote:
The Sohei's ability to use Brawling armor and Weapon Training is extremely useful; at level 6 you're give up a slightly larger damage die for at least +3 to attack and damage. Since you can't take things like Power Attack or Focus at level 1, Dual Talent really is good stuff whatever you put it in - and you really want to start out with 18 strength.
I was under the impression that monks counter as having full bab when flurrying and therefore could Pick PA at level 1 but only use it with flurry until level 2. If i an wrong in this? Some feat rearanfement is needed.

When flurrying, your use your monk levels in place of your BAB to calculate your attack rolls and any level-dependent effects, but it doesn't change your BAB for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

For example, at level 4, when flurrying, you Power Attack is at -2 attack/+4 damage; when not flurrying, your Power Attack is at -1/+2. But your actual BAB is still only 3, so you can't pick up any feats that require BAB 4.

(Unfortunately, there's not a PFS-legal monk archetype that changes the bonus feat list to include Power Attack.)

Side note:
On average, you'll do more damage with Power Attack unless the attack penalty drops your to hit percentage down to 20% (i.e., you need a 17 to hit). That's the break point where the additional damage is balanced by the decreased chance to hit.

You can also mitigate that with the feat Furious Focus, which lets you ignore the PA attack penalty for the first attack in each round. For monks, this is especially helpful for those rounds when you have to move and can't flurry: use Furious Focus to counter the 3/4 BAB.

Scarab Sages

See Monday's FAQ. Dragon style works normally once more.


Gwen Smith wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
BadBird wrote:
The Sohei's ability to use Brawling armor and Weapon Training is extremely useful; at level 6 you're give up a slightly larger damage die for at least +3 to attack and damage. Since you can't take things like Power Attack or Focus at level 1, Dual Talent really is good stuff whatever you put it in - and you really want to start out with 18 strength.
I was under the impression that monks counter as having full bab when flurrying and therefore could Pick PA at level 1 but only use it with flurry until level 2. If i an wrong in this? Some feat rearanfement is needed.

When flurrying, your use your monk levels in place of your BAB to calculate your attack rolls and any level-dependent effects, but it doesn't change your BAB for the purposes of qualifying for feats.

For example, at level 4, when flurrying, you Power Attack is at -2 attack/+4 damage; when not flurrying, your Power Attack is at -1/+2. But your actual BAB is still only 3, so you can't pick up any feats that require BAB 4.

(Unfortunately, there's not a PFS-legal monk archetype that changes the bonus feat list to include Power Attack.)

Side note:
On average, you'll do more damage with Power Attack unless the attack penalty drops your to hit percentage down to 20% (i.e., you need a 17 to hit). That's the break point where the additional damage is balanced by the decreased chance to hit.

You can also mitigate that with the feat Furious Focus, which lets you ignore the PA attack penalty for the first attack in each round. For monks, this is especially helpful for those rounds when you have to move and can't flurry: use Furious Focus to counter the 3/4 BAB.

Thanks. I would Pick weapon focus at 1 and powerattack at 7 then if you look at the chances i suggestet.

Silver Crusade

no WF at level 1 since there's no BAB.

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